Landis Hearing Closed

"DirtRoadie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/more/09/14/landis.ap/

If he's found not guilty I hope he sues WADA, the UCI and the Tour
organization into bankruptcy.

Quoted message said:

If he's found not guilty I hope he sues WADA, the UCI and the Tour
organization into bankruptcy.

Have you communicated this directly to those in charge of the hearings?
Perhaps they'll rethink the concept of coming up with a fair decision and
instead decide to declare him guilty regardless, since that would decrease
the civil exposure to the powers-that-be.

Perhaps it would be more appropriate to hope for justice that's blind to
such things.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"DirtRoadie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/more/09/14/landis.ap/

If he's found not guilty I hope he sues WADA, the UCI and the Tour
organization into bankruptcy.

25 years ago I was proud of being an attorney. Kunich-minded tort
chasers changed that.
Best,
Bill Black

"billb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"DirtRoadie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/more/09/14/landis.ap/

If he's found not guilty I hope he sues WADA, the UCI and the Tour
organization into bankruptcy.

25 years ago I was proud of being an attorney. Kunich-minded tort
chasers changed that.

Tell is something Bill, while you were proud being an attorney did some
sorts group falsely accuse a leading athlete of cheating and then spend more
than a year of the most profitable period of that athlete's life finagling
about it?

Something tells me that as an attorney you hadn't a single clue about what
the hell you were really supposed to be doing. My guess is that Daniel
Webster was more in your line.

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

Tell is something Bill, while you were proud being an attorney did some
sorts group falsely accuse a leading athlete of cheating and then spend more
than a year of the most profitable period of that athlete's life finagling
about it?

OK, Tom, you made an accusation ("falsely accuse"😉.

How about an A-Z explanation of what happened with Floyd, incl. the
original test, and the subsequent tests?
IOW, using your expertise, line it out for readers here, if you would,
please. Thank you. --D-y

On Sep 15, 10:13 am, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

OK, Tom, you made an accusation ("falsely accuse"😉.

How about an A-Z explanation of what happened with Floyd, incl. the
original test, and the subsequent tests?
IOW, using your expertise, line it out for readers here, if you would,
please. Thank you. --D-y

YAAAHHHH!!!!! Tell me you did NOT just write that!!
You got your red union suit on and running around in the pasture too?
Maybe poking some bears with sticks?
Bill C
Not a lawyer, but I think Bill Black treads a really reasonable,
rational line on when and how to take action. New England owes Bill a
huge debt, and always will, for stepping up and fighting hard for
making things better in cycling here. I'm not sure he gets a lot of
credit, or recognition outside of the handful of people who do things
like show up for the Nebra meetings or promote races.
To make it short, Bill always gets the benefit of the doubt, and a
rethink on my part, just to make sure I want to disagree with him.
Even then I have a sneaking suspicion he's probably right anyway.
He's pretty damned high on the list of people in the sport I respect.
Bill C

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"billb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"DirtRoadie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/more/09/14/landis.ap/

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If he's found not guilty I hope he sues WADA, the UCI and the Tour
organization into bankruptcy.

Quoted message said:

25 years ago I was proud of being an attorney. Kunich-minded tort
chasers changed that.

Tell is something Bill, while you were proud being an attorney did some
sorts group falsely accuse a leading athlete of cheating and then spend more
than a year of the most profitable period of that athlete's life finagling
about it?

Something tells me that as an attorney you hadn't a single clue about what
the hell you were really supposed to be doing. My guess is that Daniel
Webster was more in your line.

Every system, judicial or otherwise, must function well for the
majority of its applications. Legislation/design by anecdote leads
only to disorganization and chaos -- much like your grammar and
attempts at thought.
Best,
Bill Black

billb said:

Every system, judicial or otherwise, must function well for the
majority of its applications.

I just want to be clear that I was only asking Kunich to state his
case.

I was nice and said please in hopes of seeing a calm, ordered
presentation of information and opinion. He (Tom Kunich) is very
capable, when he chooses, to perform in such a manner.

There are people in every occupation at every level who are doing
their best to make it hard to take pride in what one does every day.
Maybe including people who work in French "drug labs", is my point
here.

OK, is it time to hop over and hope the fence holds, again? --D-y

"billb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tell is something Bill, while you were proud being an attorney did some
sorts group falsely accuse a leading athlete of cheating and then spend
more
than a year of the most profitable period of that athlete's life
finagling
about it?

Something tells me that as an attorney you hadn't a single clue about
what
the hell you were really supposed to be doing. My guess is that Daniel
Webster was more in your line.

Every system, judicial or otherwise, must function well for the
majority of its applications. Legislation/design by anecdote leads
only to disorganization and chaos -- much like your grammar and
attempts at thought.

If I understand your sidestepping properly you seem to be saying that it's
perfectly OK to falsely accuse Floyd of cheating and to keep him from making
a living for what would have been the most profitable years of his career.

Why is it that I'm not in the least surprised that a lawyer would hold such
a position?

If Bill C wasn't of another opinion I wouldn't hold you in much light.

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"billb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tell is something Bill, while you were proud being an attorney did some
sorts group falsely accuse a leading athlete of cheating and then spend
more
than a year of the most profitable period of that athlete's life
finagling
about it?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Something tells me that as an attorney you hadn't a single clue about
what
the hell you were really supposed to be doing. My guess is that Daniel
Webster was more in your line.

Quoted message said:

Every system, judicial or otherwise, must function well for the
majority of its applications. Legislation/design by anecdote leads
only to disorganization and chaos -- much like your grammar and
attempts at thought.

If I understand your sidestepping properly you seem to be saying that it's
perfectly OK to falsely accuse Floyd of cheating and to keep him from making
a living for what would have been the most profitable years of his career.

Why is it that I'm not in the least surprised that a lawyer would hold such
a position?

If Bill C wasn't of another opinion I wouldn't hold you in much light.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My initial response was regarding your suggesting that organizations
be sued out of existence if FL were exonerated -- I did not take a
position on the merits of the FL situation.
Best,
Bill Black

"billb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"billb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

> Tell is something Bill, while you were proud being an attorney did
> some
> sorts group falsely accuse a leading athlete of cheating and then
> spend
> more
> than a year of the most profitable period of that athlete's life
> finagling
> about it?

Quoted message said:

> Something tells me that as an attorney you hadn't a single clue
> about
> what
> the hell you were really supposed to be doing. My guess is that
> Daniel
> Webster was more in your line.

Quoted message said:

Every system, judicial or otherwise, must function well for the
majority of its applications. Legislation/design by anecdote leads
only to disorganization and chaos -- much like your grammar and
attempts at thought.

If I understand your sidestepping properly you seem to be saying that
it's
perfectly OK to falsely accuse Floyd of cheating and to keep him from
making
a living for what would have been the most profitable years of his
career.

Why is it that I'm not in the least surprised that a lawyer would
hold such
a position?

If Bill C wasn't of another opinion I wouldn't hold you in much
light.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My initial response was regarding your suggesting that organizations
be sued out of existence if FL were exonerated -- I did not take a
position on the merits of the FL situation.
Best,
Bill Black

Interesting that you would take umbrage at Tom's remark. Here's hoping
you give hell to the sue-happy of your profession. We had a lawyer come
and give a seminar on sexual misconduct at our school district a couple
of weeks ago. This was the defense attorney of one Mary Kay Letourneau
(Michael A.Patterson, LLB, JD). This guy was telling us how he would
like to get the wages stopped of any teacher under investigation and
suspension. For him it's obviously all about the money (several other
examples of this) and not, innocent till proved guilty. For school
teachers, it has nothing to do with the money; most of us were offended
by his stance. Way to go in making a dent in the general perception of
your profession.

Phil H

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

If I understand your sidestepping properly you seem to be saying that it's
perfectly OK to falsely accuse Floyd of cheating and to keep him from making
a living for what would have been the most profitable years of his career.

Gosh, Tom, what makes you think Floyd Landis was falsely accused?

(trying again) (Gee Mr. Wizard approach this time) (why not) --D-y

Come on Tom, I'll post my real name <g>

"billb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My initial response was regarding your suggesting that organizations
be sued out of existence if FL were exonerated -- I did not take a
position on the merits of the FL situation.

I see. Apparently you agree that the UCI should be able to stop Valverde
from racing at the Worlds after his own national organization looked
carefully over the presented evidence WHICH WAS GATHERED IN THEIR OWN
COUNTRY and decided that the evidence wasn't complete enough to warrant any
movement against him.

You must think that ASO and WADA are perfectly justified in kicking out
teams for transgressions by a single rider outside of the team's control.

If the evidence presented to us as true in the Landis case is factual the
UCI should be up on criminal charges and not just sued out of existence.

Quoted post said:

billb said:

Every system, judicial or otherwise, must function well for the
majority of its applications.

I just want to be clear that I was only asking Kunich to state his
case.

I was nice and said please in hopes of seeing a calm, ordered
presentation of information and opinion. He (Tom Kunich) is very
capable, when he chooses, to perform in such a manner.

There are people in every occupation at every level who are doing
their best to make it hard to take pride in what one does every day.
Maybe including people who work in French "drug labs", is my point
here.

OK, is it time to hop over and hope the fence holds, again? --D-y

I agree that Tom is perfectly capable of making very good arguments,
and frequently does until at the last second he gets sidetracked. I
think that just about everyone in this discussion, at this point, is
on the same track, to varying degrees. Tom has made up his mind that
Flandis is getting railroaded, I've had serious problems with the
system, as you have. Bill B, in my experience weighs everything
carefully and doesn't jump to conclusions. He's been willing to take
on the system, or the rest of us, as he saw the need to. Sandy is the
same way.
I don't think we'll ever know the whole truth about the inside
workings of the UCI, Wada, ASO, etc... We also really don't know what
the riders, and teams have done for sure either. I'd love for things
to break like they did in the IOC, Salt Lake scandal, or the skating
judging where we got inside info and it was confirmed how dirty things
are, and the indications were that was just the tip of the iceberg. I
don't think cycling, especially with the turf wars is free from dirty
tricks and people willing to do whatever it takes for power and wins.
Then again I'm Pollyanna
Bill C

In article <[email hidden]>, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>

Quoted message said:

"billb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tell is something Bill, while you were proud being an attorney did some
sorts group falsely accuse a leading athlete of cheating and then spend
more than a year of the most profitable period of that athlete's life
finagling about it?

Something tells me that as an attorney you hadn't a single clue about
what the hell you were really supposed to be doing. My guess is that Daniel
Webster was more in your line.

Ah, the Klassic Kunich lines: "Something tells me that you hadn't a single
clue..." and "My guess is..." So what tells you these things, the voices in your
head? As for your guesses, I'd suggest that you probably ought not play the lottery.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Every system, judicial or otherwise, must function well for the
majority of its applications. Legislation/design by anecdote leads
only to disorganization and chaos -- much like your grammar and
attempts at thought.

If I understand your sidestepping properly you seem to be saying that it's
perfectly OK to falsely accuse Floyd of cheating and to keep him from making
a living for what would have been the most profitable years of his career.

"If I understand..." Nice strawman, T.

--
tanx,
Howard

Faberge eggs are elegant but I prefer Faberge bacon.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

In article <[email hidden]>, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>

Quoted message said:

"billb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My initial response was regarding your suggesting that organizations
be sued out of existence if FL were exonerated -- I did not take a
position on the merits of the FL situation.

I see. Apparently you agree that the UCI should be able to stop Valverde
from racing at the Worlds after his own national organization looked
carefully over the presented evidence WHICH WAS GATHERED IN THEIR OWN
COUNTRY and decided that the evidence wasn't complete enough to warrant any
movement against him.

You must think that ASO and WADA are perfectly justified in kicking out
teams for transgressions by a single rider outside of the team's control.

If the evidence presented to us as true in the Landis case is factual the
UCI should be up on criminal charges and not just sued out of existence.

Have you ever considered responding to what the other person has said, rather than
the things you've assigned him? I know, that makes it harder to have a "successful"
argument.

--
tanx,
Howard

Faberge eggs are elegant but I prefer Faberge bacon.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Bill C said:

I'd love for things
to break like they did in the IOC, Salt Lake scandal, or the skating
judging where we got inside info and it was confirmed how dirty things
are, and the indications were that was just the tip of the iceberg. I
don't think cycling, especially with the turf wars is free from dirty
tricks and people willing to do whatever it takes for power and wins.

Quoted message said:

Then again I'm Pollyanna

No, but [censored] Pound was the Good Fairy. Selling fairytales. (We're
going to clean up the sport"😉. --D-y

yawn.

Bill C said:

Not a lawyer, but I think Bill Black treads a really reasonable,
rational line on when and how to take action. New England owes Bill a
huge debt, and always will, for stepping up and fighting hard for
making things better in cycling here. I'm not sure he gets a lot of
credit, or recognition outside of the handful of people who do things
like show up for the Nebra meetings or promote races.
To make it short, Bill always gets the benefit of the doubt, and a
rethink on my part, just to make sure I want to disagree with him.
Even then I have a sneaking suspicion he's probably right anyway.
He's pretty damned high on the list of people in the sport I respect.
Bill C

BillB, BillC...I'm waiting for Bill v4 (aka BillD) to weigh in with an
opinion. I'm an early adopter.

R