Lance vs. Jan in a sprint

"Tim Lance" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
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Quoted message said:

At some point it could well come down to this (no matter the actual winners of the stage).

Who would win?

Would the riders near them (proximity, not standings) give them room

or

Quoted message said:

would they have have to duke it out in a mob?

Tim

IMHO, They won't sprint for bonifications in the next stages. The fight for the green jersey
is still hot and neither Lance, neither Ian can win in a sprint against guys lake Zabel, Mc
Ewen or Cooke.

--
Ron

Tim Lance <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

At some point it could well come down to this (no matter the actual winners of the stage).

Who would win?

Would the riders near them (proximity, not standings) give them room or would they have have to
duke it out in a mob?

If there was no-one going for green jersey, and it wasn't the finish sprint (or first had already
gone) then maybe possibly they'd be let to sprint between the two of them if they could shout at
enough people quickly.

ASSuming they did get given room... I'd put money on Lance winning, as he's more explosive in
general, but not very much money: we've never really seen Jan trying to accelerate when he knows in
advance he's going to have to, it's always been halfway up a mountain where Jan wants to be in a big
gear for the way he climbs - and he's certainly strong.

Peter

In article said:

"Tim Lance" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

At some point it could well come down to this (no matter the actual winners of the stage).

Who would win?

Would the riders near them (proximity, not standings) give them room

or

Quoted message said:

would they have have to duke it out in a mob?

Tim

IMHO, They won't sprint for bonifications in the next stages. The fight for the green jersey is
still hot and neither Lance, neither Ian can win in a sprint against guys lake Zabel, Mc Ewen
or Cooke.

--
Ron

I know that. What I am getting at is something like:

1) Here they all come, the usual suspects flying towards the line (with Zabel winning!).

2) Here's the pack and Lance and Jan are in it. Normally they'd all get the same time.

3) BUT, what if there was a split, purposely or not, such that Lance and Jan are essentially by
themselves (i.e. enough seconds away from the others in the pack sections such that the times are
not all the same).

4) Who'd win that sprint?

Granted: They would have to be within seconds of each other on GC and the rules on time splits
within finishing groups would have to be very close.

Just wondering.

Tim

--

"Tim Lance" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:230720031154504566%>

Quoted message said:

4) Who'd win that sprint?

We'll probably never know, as the only time they do sprint against each other is at the top of a
mountain, and that's pretty rare anyway.

In a flat sprint, I'd put my money on Jan, who used to be a decent sprinter when he was younger,
whereas I seem to remember Lance being beaten by Michael Boogerd(!), Michele Bartoli and Serguei
Ivanov in a four man sprint in the Amstel Gold Race. Lance seems to have a better kick, but Jan
could probably hit a higher top speed.

Jeff

Jan used to be a sprinter and has a sprinter's physique.....

F.

Quoted message said:

3) BUT, what if there was a split, purposely or not, such that Lance and Jan are essentially by
themselves (i.e. enough seconds away from

4) Who'd win that sprint?

I'd bet Lance. Jan is remarkably one dimensional on the bike. He does not descend well, does not
handle the bike well, and does not dance well. He simply puts out prodigious power over time, which
is enough to overcome all his shortcomings in a stage race. I'd think Lance could put forth greater
power and have an easier time driving a big gear while dancing in a sprint between the two,
regardless of Jan's early career sprinting lineage.

Doug

Jeff Jones said:

in the Amstel Gold Race. Lance seems to have a better kick, but Jan could probably hit a higher
top speed.

A young fellow by the name of Armstrong won a stage in the 1993 TdF in Verdun by sprinting clear of
a small breakaway group.

Quoted message said:

I'd bet Lance. Jan is remarkably one dimensional on the bike. He does not descend well, does not
handle the bike well, and does not

Yup, that's why Ullrich hit the road far more often than Armstrong during this years tour.

"Jeff Jones" <jeff@cyclingnews-punt-com> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tim Lance" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:230720031154504566%>

Quoted message said:

4) Who'd win that sprint?

We'll probably never know, as the only time they do sprint against each other is at the top of a
mountain, and that's pretty rare anyway.

In a flat sprint, I'd put my money on Jan, who used to be a decent

sprinter

Quoted message said:

when he was younger, whereas I seem to remember Lance being beaten by Michael Boogerd(!), Michele
Bartoli and Serguei Ivanov in a four man

sprint

Quoted message said:

in the Amstel Gold Race. Lance seems to have a better kick, but Jan could probably hit a higher
top speed.

Jeff

Yeah, I agree. I think Jan's weakness is not in the sprint but in uphill surges.

"Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jeff Jones said:

in the Amstel Gold Race. Lance seems to have a better kick, but Jan

could

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

probably hit a higher top speed.

A young fellow by the name of Armstrong won a stage in the 1993 TdF in Verdun by sprinting clear
of a small breakaway group.

True - I guess you could compare how many flat (or relatively flat) sprints each of them have won in
their careers, but the modern Lance and Jan are quite a bit different to what they were 10 years ago
in terms of sprinting prowess. There's only one way to find out anyway, which makes this speculation
a little pointless. But that's RBR :-)

Jeff

"Rene Clancy" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:bfn4aq$fqv86$1@ID- 5759.news.uni-berlin.de:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd bet Lance. Jan is remarkably one dimensional on the bike. He does not descend well, does not
handle the bike well, and does not

Yup, that's why Ullrich hit the road far more often than Armstrong during this years tour.

Right. Because we all know that having someone fall in front of you or having your bar yanked is a
direct reflection on bike-handling skill.

-Owen

[email hidden] (Peter Allen) wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Tim Lance <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

At some point it could well come down to this (no matter the actual winners of the stage).

Who would win?

-snip-

I'd put money on Lance winning, as

Quoted message said:

he's more explosive in general, but not very much money: we've never really seen Jan trying to
accelerate when he knows in advance he's going to have to, it's always been halfway up a mountain
where Jan wants to be in a big gear for the way he climbs - and he's certainly strong.

Peter

Folks -

Let's base our answer on reality as opposed to fanaticism or patriotism.

Lance is a [censored] sprinter. Great cyclist, probably the best of his era, but as a sprinter he's worse
than George Hincapie.

Diesel Jan probably isn't a great sprinter these days either, but Lance is so deficient in
sprinting, not to mention he has done so little of it, that Jan is at least a two to one favorite
against Lance in a sprint match up on level ground.

-RJ

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Ronaldo Jeremia
[email hidden] (Peter Allen) wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Tim Lance <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

At some point it could well come down to this (no matter the actual winners of the stage).

Who would win?

-snip-

I'd put money on Lance winning, as

Quoted message said:

he's more explosive in general, but not very much money: we've never really seen Jan trying to
accelerate when he knows in advance he's going to have to, it's always been halfway up a mountain
where Jan wants to be in a big gear for the way he climbs - and he's certainly strong.

Peter

Folks -

Let's base our answer on reality as opposed to fanaticism or patriotism.

Lance is a [censored] sprinter. Great cyclist, probably the best of his era, but as a sprinter he's worse
than George Hincapie.

Diesel Jan probably isn't a great sprinter these days either, but Lance is so deficient in
sprinting, not to mention he has done so little of it, that Jan is at least a two to one favorite
against Lance in a sprint match up on level ground.

-RJ

Well speaking of this...Hincape would probably go out on the breakaway with lance if the sprint mattered so Jan would probably have to beat Hincape and Jan unless Lance needed the time or Urlich

Liggett said Jan was a sprinter as a junior in the East German system.

--
Irrationally held truths may be more harmfull than reasoned errors. "lazysegall"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ronaldo Jeremia said:

[email hidden] (Peter Allen) wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Tim Lance <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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> At some point it could well come down to this (no matter the

actual

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> winners of the stage).
>
> Who would win?
>

-snip- I'd put money on Lance winning, as

Quoted message said:

he's more explosive in general, but not very much money: we've never really seen Jan trying
to accelerate when he knows in advance he's going to have to, it's always been halfway up a
mountain where Jan wants to be in a big gear for the way he climbs - and he's certainly
strong.

Peter

Folks - Let's base our answer on reality as opposed to fanaticism or

patriotism.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Lance is a [censored] sprinter. Great cyclist, probably the best of his era, but as a sprinter he's
worse than George Hincapie. Diesel Jan probably isn't a great sprinter these days either, but

Lance

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is so deficient in sprinting, not to mention he has done so little of it, that Jan is at least
a two to one favorite against Lance in a

sprint

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Quoted message said:

match up on level ground. -RJ

Well speaking of this...Hincape would probably go out on the breakaway with lance if the sprint
mattered so Jan would probably have to beat Hincape and Jan unless Lance needed the time or Urlich

--

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Posted via cyclingforums.com cyclingforums.comcyclingforums.comOpen ↗

"Tim Lance" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Who would win?

Who would have the patience to wait around to find out?

"Scott Downie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Liggett said Jan was a sprinter as a junior in the East German system.

There is a very close battle for the green jersey again this year:

sports.yahoo.comnewsOpen ↗

That is one reason why it doesn't matter how fast Jan and Lance are in a sprint - they are not fast
enough to be taking points away from Zabel, Cooke, and McEwen. The TdF GC will be decided in the ITT
on Saturday.
--
Marty

[email hidden] (Ronaldo Jeremiah) wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Peter Allen) wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Tim Lance <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

At some point it could well come down to this (no matter the actual winners of the stage).

Who would win?

-snip-

I'd put money on Lance winning, as

Quoted message said:

he's more explosive in general, but not very much money: we've never really seen Jan trying to
accelerate when he knows in advance he's going to have to, it's always been halfway up a
mountain where Jan wants to be in a big gear for the way he climbs - and he's certainly strong.

Peter

Folks -

Let's base our answer on reality as opposed to fanaticism or patriotism.

Lance is a [censored] sprinter. Great cyclist, probably the best of his era, but as a sprinter he's
worse than George Hincapie.

I'd say Jan's probably the 'best cyclist' right now - if he had a team to compare with USPS, or
hadn't been ill in the Alps, we'd not be discussing this, because Jan would be a minute up on Lance,
and he will probably win the ITT: and that from a Tour he claimed to be entering just for training.
Hincapie certainly used to be a good sprinter, but without the mental strength to push and shove in
a bunch finish; 'worse than Hincapie' isn't much of a criticism, especially for a GC guy.

Quoted message said:

Diesel Jan probably isn't a great sprinter these days either, but Lance is so deficient in
sprinting, not to mention he has done so little of it, that Jan is at least a two to one favorite
against Lance in a sprint match up on level ground.

When did we last see Jan doing any sprinting? Lance does routinely jump to win climbs when there are
seconds at stake, and usually succeeds: so he can sprint uphill semi-competently.

Peter

"Peter Allen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd say Jan's probably the 'best cyclist' right now - if he had a team

to compare with USPS, or hadn't been ill in the Alps,

If Lance wasn't ill in the TT He'd be even further up. If Lance didn't crash on Luz Ardiden he'd be
further up. If my Aunt had nuts she'd be my Uncle. If Jan is the 'best cyclist' right now, why is he
down 1:07?

Stop making excuses. Whoever wins, wins. Until Jan puts on the yellow jersey he's still #2.

-T

Tom Schulenburg said:

"Peter Allen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd say Jan's probably the 'best cyclist' right now - if he had a team

to compare with USPS, or hadn't been ill in the Alps,

Quoted message said:

If Lance wasn't ill in the TT He'd be even further up. If Lance didn't crash on Luz Ardiden he'd
be further up. If my Aunt had nuts she'd be my Uncle. If Jan is the 'best cyclist' right now, why
is he down 1:07?

If they'd made the route around the Ile-de-France, Robbie, Erik, Baden and Suart would be sprinting
for yellow on Sunday...

Quoted message said:

Stop making excuses. Whoever wins, wins. Until Jan puts on the yellow jersey he's still #2.

Quoted message said:

-T