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Lance positive?

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8 July 2009
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stilesiii
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  1. Why didn't he sue L'Equipe, a world well-known and respected sport newspaper after that: on the front page it was stated Armstrong' lie?
    Why didn't sue Walsh and Ballester for their 2 books?
    Why didn't sue Pr. Mondenard for his recent new book named "The big fraud" about Lance Armstrong?

    Should we believe that all the people who have written or stated that Lance doped in countries with libel laws were all stupid? None of them had feared to be sued by a whealthier man?

    At the last conference http://www.playthegame.org/conferences/play-the-game-2009/presentations.html
    Ashenden has spoken about UCI corruption he referred to the "donation" of Lance to UCI. Just have a look there http://www.playthegame.org/uploads/media/Michael_Ashenden-Can_curruption_derail_the_testing_syst.pdf

  2. DV1976 said:

    1) Has it occured to you that I may have read your post and liked the expression without actually disagreeing with what you had written?
    2) I didnt classify you. You classified yourself.
    3) I didnt refer to you personally, I didnt quote you, I didnt mention your nick, I just happened to use a expression that you used as well. True I may have read it on your post. As luck had it I had a discussion at a dinner last night with a Maths professor who is on a one year's sabbatical and it came up in the conversation. So it may had been on my mind since last night or I may have glanced it as I was scrolling down this topics' posts. I dont remember. And its not my problem. Its your. I cant recall what you ve written, I didnt pay attention to it, if I answered to anyone in particular this was nonns and simply because he has posted the same nonsense before. And I am annoyed because for three years there were 10-12 regulars here posting and talking about cycling and now we are seeing the long departed Armstrong posse all of a sudden reappearing and blabbering the same nonsense as 3-4 years ago. And I mostly replied to all of them and to people like them who havent graced us yet (where is mussette any1?) with their presence and thats because:
    a) They dont give a shιt about cycling
    b) They believe everything that comes out of LA's mouth and they have to make you see their point eventhouth not only it doesnt make sense, it spits in the face of Logic.
    So I ve spent 10min of my life explaining my self to you. It s up to you to be convinced or not. I dont care either way.

    Goodness me - talk about aggression. Ref point a and point b above. You make a sweeping assumption. I've loved cycling since I was a boy (sadly I'm a bit older than that now-joints creak etc.).
    Ref point b. Maybe others do. I believe the things I see him do. I have been mildly amused by some of his interviews in this years tour - nothing more. I'm not an LA groupy. Neither you nor I have any way of knowing for sure whether the guy speaks with forked tongue or not.

    I was having a discussion, you are the one who seems to be jumping ugly on anyone who fails to get the point you're ramming down their throats. My point is I'm open minded and without incontrovertible proof as to the fact that the guy dopes I'm not willing to declare him guilty.

    FACT: If everyone was certain of the so called evidence then they they would have used it because the guy has made enemies as most successful people ultimately do.

    When the Lance Haters (that was said tongue in cheek btw) ask why he didn't sue the various papers that made the comments. I could equally well ask why the evidence hasn't been taken and used against him and why it hasn't been used to strip him of his record. The answer is that its not good enough for some reason. Note I haven't said he hasn't doped. I just haven't been prepared to accept that anyone has proved that he has.

    As to whether I posted nonsense at some point in the past I have no idea. I suspect that what you mean is that I had the same attitude at some point in the past. I have no doubt you will quote me on something I posted. I would suspect that my attitude hasn't changed that much. Mind you it might have as that was then and this is now.

    As for classifications. The Lance posse. I'm not part of any Lance posse. In the same way that I don't believe the so called evidence I don't believe in total innocence either. I just don't believe in rubbishing a person until there is total incontrovertible proof and the situation has been dealt with in the proper way.

    I said before Is Lance doping or isn't he doping I don't know. That he is a great athlete (doping or no doping) is the truth. He is a multiple times winner and one has to assume that others in the peloton were doping also. That he's a nice person I have no idea. I've never met the guy. Barack Obama is a winner. I've never met the guy he might be a total pill*ck for all I know.

    There are many great athletes in the TdF pack. The one in the best shape will win (however that shape was achieved). If they doped and they don't get caught then we wont know. If they doped in the past it doesn't mean they doped now.

    I hope for a great race. I hope for a great winner. A great winner will show their authority at some point. If its Cadel brilliant. If its Armstrong brilliant. If its Menchov brilliant (if its any of ther member of the pack brilliant). If its an exciting race I actually don't give a stuff who wins. Do I happen to like
    LA yes. I think his record is pretty impressive. I'd like to see the old guy win. I'd love to see him being charitable after a win and say he'd ride for x years subsequently in support of Contador or Lepheimer (but lets be honest that wont happen). Like all top athletes he's selfish (very few aren't or they wouldn't be top athletes). As for the race I wish Astana weren't so very strong - it would open it out.

    As for whether I dont grace this forum. I come in and out. I frequently lurk. I contribute or attempt to if something interests me. Your response style was precisely the reason I stopped posting - I don't like aggressive. Seemingly you like the clique of regulars and don't like anyone else having an opinion. Why don't you start a non public forum where you can all convene.

    Apologies to the other regulars who don't appear to be hyper sensitve souls.

    Look I was trying to have a conversation. I didn't expect you to get the hump. I'm sorry that I've spoilt your day week month. I am entitled to my opinion though. I didn't realise the subject I posted on was off limits. I'm not prepared to have a heart attack or cause anyone else to do so to continue it. Have a good day and be happy with your opinion.

    BTW just because I disagree with you on this doesn't mean that I disagree with you on everything else. Just because I disagree with you doesn't make me a moron. I haven't attempted to insult you intelligence. I've never met you you might be a very nice guy for all I know.

    Cheers and enjoy Le Tour. May the rider with the best chemical cocktail flowing through their veins win.

  3. DV1976 said:

    1) Has it occured to you that I may have read your post and liked the expression without actually disagreeing with what you had written?
    2) I didnt classify you. You classified yourself.
    3) I didnt refer to you personally, I didnt quote you, I didnt mention your nick, I just happened to use a expression that you used as well. True I may have read it on your post. As luck had it I had a discussion at a dinner last night with a Maths professor who is on a one year's sabbatical and it came up in the conversation. So it may had been on my mind since last night or I may have glanced it as I was scrolling down this topics' posts. I dont remember. And its not my problem. Its your. I cant recall what you ve written, I didnt pay attention to it, if I answered to anyone in particular this was nonns and simply because he has posted the same nonsense before. And I am annoyed because for three years there were 10-12 regulars here posting and talking about cycling and now we are seeing the long departed Armstrong posse all of a sudden reappearing and blabbering the same nonsense as 3-4 years ago. And I mostly replied to all of them and to people like them who havent graced us yet (where is mussette any1?) with their presence and thats because:
    a) They dont give a shιt about cycling
    b) They believe everything that comes out of LA's mouth and they have to make you see their point eventhouth not only it doesnt make sense, it spits in the face of Logic.
    So I ve spent 10min of my life explaining my self to you. It s up to you to be convinced or not. I dont care either way.

    Goodness me - talk about aggression. Ref point a and point b above. You make a sweeping assumption. I've loved cycling since I was a boy (sadly I'm a bit older than that now-joints creak etc.).
    Ref point b. Maybe others do. I believe the things I see him do. I have been mildly amused by some of his interviews in this years tour - nothing more. I'm not an LA groupy. Neither you nor I have any way of knowing for sure whether the guy speaks with forked tongue or not.

    I was having a discussion, you are the one who seems to be jumping ugly on anyone who fails to get the point you're ramming down their throats. My point is I'm open minded and without incontrovertible proof as to the fact that the guy dopes I'm not willing to declare him guilty.

    FACT: If everyone was certain of the so called evidence then they they would have used it because the guy has made enemies as most successful people ultimately do.

    When the Lance Haters (that was said tongue in cheek btw) ask why he didn't sue the various papers that made the comments. I could equally well ask why the evidence hasn't been taken and used against him and why it hasn't been used to strip him of his record. The answer is that its not good enough for some reason. Note I haven't said he hasn't doped. I just haven't been prepared to accept that anyone has proved that he has.

    As to whether I posted nonsense at some point in the past I have no idea. I suspect that what you mean is that I had the same attitude at some point in the past. I have no doubt you will quote me on something I posted. I would suspect that my attitude hasn't changed that much. Mind you it might have as that was then and this is now.

    As for classifications. The Lance posse. I'm not part of any Lance posse. In the same way that I don't believe the so called evidence I don't believe in total innocence either. I just don't believe in rubbishing a person until there is total incontrovertible proof and the situation has been dealt with in the proper way.

    I said before Is Lance doping or isn't he doping I don't know. That he is a great athlete (doping or no doping) is the truth. He is a multiple times winner and one has to assume that others in the peloton were doping also. That he's a nice person I have no idea. I've never met the guy. Barack Obama is a winner. I've never met the guy he might be a total pill*ck for all I know.

    There are many great athletes in the TdF pack. The one in the best shape will win (however that shape was achieved). If they doped and they don't get caught then we wont know. If they doped in the past it doesn't mean they doped now.

    I hope for a great race. I hope for a great winner. A great winner will show their authority at some point. If its Cadel brilliant. If its Armstrong brilliant. If its Menchov brilliant (if its any of ther member of the pack brilliant). If its an exciting race I actually don't give a stuff who wins. Do I happen to like
    LA yes. I think his record is pretty impressive. I'd like to see the old guy win. I'd love to see him being charitable after a win and say he'd ride for x years subsequently in support of Contador or Lepheimer (but lets be honest that wont happen). Like all top athletes he's selfish (very few aren't or they wouldn't be top athletes). As for the race I wish Astana weren't so very strong - it would open it out.

    As for whether I dont grace this forum. I come in and out. I frequently lurk. I contribute or attempt to if something interests me. Your response style was precisely the reason I stopped posting - I don't like aggressive. Seemingly you like the clique of regulars and don't like anyone else having an opinion. Why don't you start a non public forum where you can all convene.

    Apologies to the other regulars who don't appear to be hyper sensitve souls.

    Look I was trying to have a conversation. I didn't expect you to get the hump. I'm sorry that I've spoilt your day week month. I am entitled to my opinion though. I didn't realise the subject I posted on was off limits. I'm not prepared to have a heart attack or cause anyone else to do so to continue it. Have a good day and be happy with your opinion.

    BTW just because I disagree with you on this doesn't mean that I disagree with you on everything else. Just because I disagree with you doesn't make me a moron. I haven't attempted to insult you intelligence. I've never met you you might be a very nice guy for all I know.

    Cheers and enjoy Le Tour. May the rider with the best chemical cocktail flowing through their veins win. 🙂

  4. poulidor said:

    Why didn't he sue L'Equipe, a world well-known and respected sport newspaper after that: on the front page it was stated Armstrong' lie?
    Why didn't sue Walsh and Ballester for their 2 books?
    Why didn't sue Pr. Mondenard for his recent new book named "The big fraud" about Lance Armstrong?

    Should we believe that all the people who have written or stated that Lance doped in countries with libel laws were all stupid? None of them had feared to be sued by a whealthier man?

    At the last conference Play the Game: Presentations
    Ashenden has spoken about UCI corruption he referred to the "donation" of Lance to UCI. Just have a look there http://www.playthegame.org/uploads/media/Michael_Ashenden-Can_curruption_derail_the_testing_syst.pdf

    Thank you for the references and so forth you posted. I'll probably end up tryign to get the books.

    Look I agree that this doesn't look good for LA. But I've also explained why LA might not want to. BTW its perfectly reasonable that LA would not know exactly what has been contributed. Does he write all his own checks? I know many wealthy people who make contributions to things and they have not a clue. They're simply asked if they want to contribute and is x alright. The sums are so small in comparison to their wealth that its like yeah whatever. If they have to sign checks they don't always look at them. Thats not an excuse for Armstrong its just something I've seen.

    As for him suing publications he might of course not want to because he is doping. I don't know. Noone has got beyond a few stories and so forth. Thats trial by press. Look he probably has doped (mebbe he still is). I hope not because it wonuld diminish what he's achieved and I still would like some heroes in a sport I enjoy. Mercx, Anquetil, Hinault, Lemond are heroes but one cant be sure that they didn't dope. Fignon has admitted that he did. I hope it didn't contribute to his cancer.

    If LA doped and it is proven through the proper channels then I will be the first to come on here and say you were right. I have no problem with having to be right. If I'm wrong I admit it.

    The fact is noone has managed to make a convincing enough case to have him treated like Ricco/Pantani/Vinoukorov and the others caught doping. There are extremely powerful authorities on the other side trying to catch him. As for bribes etc. LA is not rich enough to bribe the cycling authorities. The fun they could have if he tried it would be enough to get him into serious trouble. Te poeple who claim he doped are suggesting a conspiracy theory of awesome proprotions. I have a real problem with the fact that something that big would be able to take place without it being discovered. I suspect the biggest problem about the people chasing LA is that they're well intentioned but amateurish

  5. nonns said:

    If LA doped and it is proven through the proper channels.

    It would at least stop pointless threads like this 😉

  6. nonns said:

    Thank you for the references and so forth you posted. I'll probably end up tryign to get the books.

    Look I agree that this doesn't look good for LA. But I've also explained why LA might not want to. BTW its perfectly reasonable that LA would not know exactly what has been contributed. Does he write all his own checks? I know many wealthy people who make contributions to things and they have not a clue. They're simply asked if they want to contribute and is x alright. The sums are so small in comparison to their wealth that its like yeah whatever. If they have to sign checks they don't always look at them. Thats not an excuse for Armstrong its just something I've seen.

    As for him suing publications he might of course not want to because he is doping. I don't know. Noone has got beyond a few stories and so forth. Thats trial by press. Look he probably has doped (mebbe he still is). I hope not because it wonuld diminish what he's achieved and I still would like some heroes in a sport I enjoy. Mercx, Anquetil, Hinault, Lemond are heroes but one cant be sure that they didn't dope. Fignon has admitted that he did. I hope it didn't contribute to his cancer.

    If LA doped and it is proven through the proper channels then I will be the first to come on here and say you were right. I have no problem with having to be right. If I'm wrong I admit it.

    The fact is noone has managed to make a convincing enough case to have him treated like Ricco/Pantani/Vinoukorov and the others caught doping. There are extremely powerful authorities on the other side trying to catch him. As for bribes etc. LA is not rich enough to bribe the cycling authorities. The fun they could have if he tried it would be enough to get him into serious trouble. Te poeple who claim he doped are suggesting a conspiracy theory of awesome proprotions. I have a real problem with the fact that something that big would be able to take place without it being discovered. I suspect the biggest problem about the people chasing LA is that they're well intentioned but amateurish

    The evidence and the case made, was overhwelmingly.

    The UCI chose not to do the right thing.
    That is the nub of the entire problem.

    What saved Armstrong was the fact that A and B samples from 1999, were not present for retrospective testing.
    (A sample because it was tested in 1999, using an inferior test
    for eEPO and found "clean", was destroyed : B sample tested in 2005 was found to have rEPO : in six separate 1999 samples).
    If both samples had remained intact, Armstrong and his record from 1999-2005 was gone.
    No question about that.

    But hey we have been over this gound - literally adnauseum - for years on this site.

    But as you're a noob, you wouldn't have been aware of this.

  7. Trying to convince a fanboy that his/her fan is doped is as hard as trying to change his/her religion. It is just a pointless waste of time.

  8. Ok so I accept what you're saying what I can't accept is why all the powers that be in the sport continue to associate with the guy.

    I can't understand why the governing bodies for the sport don't do something about it.
    Why do you and all the other who are convinced Armstrong is a doper continue to support a sport where seemingly the authorities are colluding with the criminal elements.

    As to whether I'm an LA Chamois Sniffer (I've never been called that before it made me laugh - hey its promotion) at least I don't attribute the guy with superhuman qualities including the ability to buy off all the cycling authorities and surround himself with total protection at the highest levels. Kohl claimed genius at being able to get away with doping but he's been caught presumably LA will be caught too at some point.

    As far as I'm concerned If he's doping or has doped I hope he gets caught - he deserves it (and that whether or not I know he has). If he's caught doping and it sticks then he should be stripped of his titles. Stripped of his winnings pursued for defrauding his sponsors and banned for life from the sport as should all the others. Why is Vinokourov being let back in? Why is Dave Millar Riding? Why are all the other cheats being allowed to take part. Its a joke.

    The one thing I know is that Lance is a damned good rider. He might be doping and he might not. He might have doped and he might not. Insufficient evidence is available to bring him down. Until he's officially brought down he hasn't been proved to have done it.

    Until such time as the risks of being caught doping are made really punitive cyclists will not consider them to be severe enough to really think about - especially when the rewards are so high for those who are successful.

    ho hum. Thanks Limerickman for being so nice in your answers. Other people on these forums could learn from you

  9. limerickman said:


    What saved Armstrong was the fact that A and B samples from 1999, were not present for retrospective testing.
    (A sample because it was tested in 1999, using an inferior test
    for eEPO and found "clean", was destroyed : B sample tested in 2005 was found to have rEPO : in six separate 1999 samples).
    If both samples had remained intact, Armstrong and his record from 1999-2005 was gone. No question about that.


    To be more accurate : A 1999 samples was never tested for EPO because at that time there were no EPO.
    Ashenden explained that was 6 samples which were positive within UCI limits which are very big to avoid false positive but 2 others had EPO too.
    Michael Ashenden | Velocity Nation - Bike racing culture, news and events

    If UCI with his president, who said that spectators won't accept a clean cyclist with riders riding slowly, had wanted to act with those 6 samples, they could have done better but their "interest" were elsewhere.

    As pointed the evidences of Lance doping are overhelming, much bigger than a uniq positive case as often.
    6 +2 samples,
    1 corticoïd
    Witnesses and official testimonies,
    Garbage with actovegin, syringes and other materials accepted implicitly by US Postal which said actovegin were used by one of their technicians. Probably he used EPO too to be able to push harder the riders who had punctures of course! 🙄

    All that is coherent with :

    • science : EPO gives a big boost, around 20-30%, allows to train harder than any clean athletes could never done
    • lance's transformation of a "bad" rider as GC contender in his prime career to an unbeatable riders just a year after a cancer
    • to beat EPO or blood doped riders
  10. A little off topic, but "reportedly" he's being sampled daily during this tour....sometimes multiple times daily. I have to wonder if they're both trying to catch him and stocking up samples for when testing methods are perhaps "better". I have a feeling they'll be making sure they have plenty for testing and are paying very close documented attention as to how they're stored, identified, etc. I suspect if we hear of positive results on one of Lances samples again, there will be plenty of B sample to back it up.

    There's certainly a lot of evidence that he did. Some of it is circumstantial yes, but some of it is evidence of a purely scientific nature. The current protocol for what is accepted as "official" fell short without the B samples. A technicality that provided a slim loophole to slip through, but the test is the test..and the results say what they do regardless if he could have been officially sanctioned.

    Some of the arguments against LA don't hold much water with me. His improvement after cancer being one of them. One side says dope, the other side points to pretty dramatic changes in his body structure. Taken alone, it could be for either reason. Just the other day there was discussion of a rider that has "transformed" himself from track to climbing. Much of that attributed to a 8kg weight loss, although I'm sure a heavier focus on road endurance racing certainly had a lot to do with it (Wiggins isn't it?) Lance was a least a good classics one day type guy before cancer, which I would judge to be a closer relative to grand tour riding than I would track riding. 🙂 If a physical/training focus change did that for Wiggins, how could it not possible for the physical change in LA to have had those results? I just don't think this "argument" is close enough from either side to be convincing.

    The Andreu story. In my opinion there is a lot of he said/she said with this one, but in my opinion favors her version of it. Another loophole "for the official side" here as well as doping was deemed to be irrelevant to the contract.

    One more thing that I see in his "favor" if you will. There's never been enough "accepted" evidence to officially sanction him..or they would have. I didn't use to think that meant much, but he retired and you saw the carnage that almost immediately happened. You've either got to believe that he got out for a while because he knew that was about to happen, or that the cycle gods where looking out for him as he seems to have been relatively absent from cycling while the majority was going on. Vino, Rass, Landis, Basso...etc, etc. where all caught with apparently enough evidence to do something about it. As much as they have tested him, you think they would have caught Armstrong as well, but they haven't.

    Overall, I don't know. I have no idea if he did or not, but I also believe where this is smoke there either is, has been, or about to be... a fire.

    I think the bigger question is.. does it matter? There is plenty of evidence, and certainly opinion.. that they all do. Assuming indeed that is the case

    a) from a professional cycling standpoint and being purely objective, it was a level playing field. His accomplishments in that area are what they are and should be respected as such.

    b) from a ethical standpoint I find it deplorable. That is somewhat mitigated by the fact that everyone is/was doing it. That being the case, I think your anger has to be directed at the sport in general, and specifically the governing bodies of that sport. The problem has been proven to be much larger than Armstrong.

    While I find the topic interesting, I also take notice of the millions of people following the race and enjoying it without much thought of doping in their minds. Perhaps ingnorance is bliss, or perhaps they choose to enjoy cycling for what it is. I guess I fall into the latter part. Of course I'd like to see the sport cleaned up, but it's not as of yet..so I can either choose to watch it, or not watch it. That's a simple answer for me.

    Yes, the question always remains in the back of my mind "is that guy doping?". That is usually after the thought... "wow, I wish I could ride like that". I don't wish it that bad however. 🙂 If doping is truly what it takes, I can at least sympathize with the riders that have made professional racing their way of living. That would be one hell of a decision to have to make.

  11. Right so I'm not alone then in sitting on the fence. I dunno about the past. The present says he's clean. I hope he is. I hope he's caught if he's not. Until he's caught clearly and openly and dealt with properly I'll take the ignorance route and enjoy the sport for what it is. A supreme spectacle.

    I still have little respect for authorities who failed to make the most of an opportunity. I think their confused and ambivalent attitude towards this whole issue doesn't help matters.

    Thats said its all been done to death this time round. Thanks for answering my questions and thanks to those who contributed pleasantly (regardless of the side they took).

    I hope you all enjoy the race.

  12. Mansmind said:

    Some of the arguments against LA don't hold much water with me. His improvement after cancer being one of them. One side says dope, the other side points to pretty dramatic changes in his body structure. Taken alone, it could be for either reason. Just the other day there was discussion of a rider that has "transformed" himself from track to climbing. Much of that attributed to a 8kg weight loss, although I'm sure a heavier focus on road endurance racing certainly had a lot to do with it (Wiggins isn't it?) Lance was a least a good classics one day type guy before cancer, which I would judge to be a closer relative to grand tour riding than I would track riding. 🙂 If a physical/training focus change did that for Wiggins, how could it not possible for the physical change in LA to have had those results? I just don't think this "argument" is close enough from either side to be convincing.

    Both the weight loss and body transformation arguments are pure myth. Armstrong found a sychophantic comrade in Coyle, and that study has been since found to be complete bull****.

  13. Mansmind said:

    Just the other day there was discussion of a rider that has "transformed" himself from track to climbing. Much of that attributed to a 8kg weight loss, although I'm sure a heavier focus on road endurance racing certainly had a lot to do with it (Wiggins isn't it?)

    You are not the only one paying close attention to Vaughters.

  14. nonns said:

    Right so I'm not alone then in sitting on the fence.

    Well, I wouldn't necessarily say that either. The evidence against him is pretty damning in my mind and as I said I believe in fire where there is smoke. If I had to make a decision right this minute (and it mattered) it would be that Lance has doped. Do I see enough to be entirely convinced of it..no, but I'm much closer to be convinced he did vs. he didn't.

    The intention of my post was to say that in regards to watching and enjoying the competitiveness of cycle racing, I don't think it's even relevant.

  15. Mansmind said:

    I think the bigger question is.. does it matter? There is plenty of evidence, and certainly opinion.. that they all do. Assuming indeed that is the case

    a) from a professional cycling standpoint and being purely objective, it was a level playing field. His accomplishments in that area are what they are and should be respected as such.

    b) from a ethical standpoint I find it deplorable. That is somewhat mitigated by the fact that everyone is/was doing it. That being the case, I think your anger has to be directed at the sport in general, and specifically the governing bodies of that sport. The problem has been proven to be much larger than Armstrong.

    As to (A), unless you're taking into effect how different individuals respond to drug treatment and can account for the disparity in different levels of programs (Ferrari-fueled vs. the guy who buys EPO online) and can weight the results accordingly, then that's just lame rationalization.

  16. jimmypop said:

    Both the weight loss and body transformation arguments are pure myth. Armstrong found a sychophantic comrade in Coyle, and that study has been since found to be complete bull****.

    So the fact that another guy currently racing, and losing 8kg in weight enabling him to become more efficient in climbing.. is pure bull**** as well? I wasn't referencing the study specifically.. I was pointing out that physical changes in two different riders seem to have provided better performance, specifically in the mountains.

  17. jimmypop said:

    As to (A), unless you're taking into effect how different individuals respond to drug treatment and can account for the disparity in different levels of programs (Ferrari-fueled vs. the guy who buys EPO online) and can weight the results accordingly, then that's just lame rationalization.

    ...but there's no way to weight that accurately is there? He hasn't been the only cyclist to be Ferrari fueled, just the only one to win 7 TDF's with it.

    I agree with you in the sense that certainly different bodies would respond to it differently.. .just like different bodies respond to normal training differently...and to different ultimate levels of fitness. That exists regardless of Lance.

  18. Well as a Brit I'd be inclined to say the same thing about Wiggo. Perhaps he's doping too.

    I do hope not.

    Actually how much has he lost. I've seen figures of between 5kg's and 8kg's. The man himself has said 6kg's. Thats pretty awesome for one so skinny and how did he achieve it without losing significant muscle.

    LA transformed but was noticeably bulky (well relatively) previous to the transformation. Wiggo was a stick insect and is now an anorexic stick insect.

  19. nonns said:

    Well as a Brit I'd be inclined to say the same thing about Wiggo. Perhaps he's doping too.

    I do hope not.

    Actually how much has he lost. I've seen figures of between 5kg's and 8kg's. The man himself has said 6kg's. Thats pretty awesome for one so skinny and how did he achieve it without losing significant muscle.

    LA transformed but was noticeably bulky (well relatively) previous to the transformation. Wiggo was a stick insect and is now an anorexic stick insect.

    He still appears much larger than "the chicken" though..at least to my memory. I used to wonder how Rass could even hold a bicycle up.. much less rotate the pedals up a mountain..without breaking a bone.

  20. Ramsussen used to remind me of that sketch in the Ripping Yarns Show of the curse of the claw. Don't touch the claw its cursed. SNAP my legs broken...etc etc.

    Twiggy was bigger and stronger than the chicken - more attractive too.

    😄

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