Lake Oroville State Recreation Area Hiking/Equestrian Trails Once Again Closed to Bikes!



> >Once while hiking I came upon a group of horses stopped on the trail. I
> >paused, until someone told me to "go right ahead". Problem was, the only
way
> >through meant walking behind the horses. Horses can spook if they know
that
> >there is someone behind them that they can't see, and sometimes they
kick. I
> >made it past alright, but the ignorance of those people was worrying.
>
> Some horse people have a rather long list of things that others using
> the trail are supposed to do, and not to do. They only want to share
> the trail with people who are willing to step off the trail for them
> instantly.

Actually, they were quite friendly about it. I'm guessing they were just
ignorant (there was a large stable nearby, which means a lot of
inexperienced riders). But I have met people like you describe.

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[email protected]
 
Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Horses are native to North America (they evolved here), and have every right to
> be here (unshod, of course!).
>

This seems intuitively correct, given the cowboy and indian movies
we've all seen. But it is totally wrong! Horses are NOT native to
the Americas. They were introduced to the continent when the
Europeans first landed in the "new world." This is one contributing
factor noted in the Pulitzer Prize winning book "Guns, Germs, and
Steel" to explain the rapid domination of the American continent by
Europeans (imagine being a native going into battle, never having seen
a horse, and facing 100 armed men riding horses!).
 
On 24 Aug 2004 00:36:29 -0700, [email protected] (TomV) wrote (more
or less):

>Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>> Horses are native to North America (they evolved here), and have every right to
>> be here (unshod, of course!).
>>
>
>This seems intuitively correct, given the cowboy and indian movies
>we've all seen. But it is totally wrong! Horses are NOT native to
>the Americas. They were introduced to the continent when the
>Europeans first landed in the "new world."

Actually, they were /re/-introduced.


>This is one contributing
>factor noted in the Pulitzer Prize winning book "Guns, Germs, and
>Steel" to explain the rapid domination of the American continent by
>Europeans (imagine being a native going into battle, never having seen
>a horse, and facing 100 armed men riding horses!).

--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk
 
Gawnsoft <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> On 24 Aug 2004 00:36:29 -0700, [email protected] (TomV) wrote (more
> or less):
>
> >Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> >
> >> Horses are native to North America (they evolved here), and have every
right to
> >> be here (unshod, of course!).
> >>
> >
> >This seems intuitively correct, given the cowboy and indian movies
> >we've all seen. But it is totally wrong! Horses are NOT native to
> >the Americas. They were introduced to the continent when the
> >Europeans first landed in the "new world."
>
> Actually, they were /re/-introduced.

Yep, they died out about 15,000 years ago, and didn't come back until the
Europeans brought them over.

--
__ __ _ ___ ___
/ _|/ _/ |_ _|_ _|
\_ ( (( o | | | |
|__/\__\_/|_| |_|

[email protected]
 
Actually, horses are not native to North America. They were brought here by
the Spanish.


"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 00:50:24 GMT, "Peter Bargewell"
<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> .Hi Mike
> .
> .Im interested being a fellow hiker any ideas about horses on trails?
>
> Horses are native to North America (they evolved here), and have every
right to
> be here (unshod, of course!). But I don't believe in using them for
vehicles.
> That is an abuse.
>
> ===
> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
>
> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
RK wrote:
> Actually, horses are not native to North America. They were brought
> here by the Spanish.
>
That is correct, but
there were aso prehistoric horses, probably hunted to extinction, that had
come over on the land bridge. But they were long gone by the time the
Spanish horses arrived. Modern day mustangs are nothing but feral horses
left over from Spanish escapees.

Penny S
 
On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:17:28 GMT, Gary S. <Idontwantspam@net> wrote:

..On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:04:46 GMT, "Scott Burley"
..<[email protected]> wrote:
..
..>> And I honestly never met a runner or biker
..>> who wanted to share a trail with a horse.
..>> (I doubt the hikers do either)
..>
..>Once while hiking I came upon a group of horses stopped on the trail. I
..>paused, until someone told me to "go right ahead". Problem was, the only way
..>through meant walking behind the horses. Horses can spook if they know that
..>there is someone behind them that they can't see, and sometimes they kick. I
..>made it past alright, but the ignorance of those people was worrying.
..
..Some horse people have a rather long list of things that others using
..the trail are supposed to do, and not to do. They only want to share
..the trail with people who are willing to step off the trail for them
..instantly.

They are only trying to protect your safety, dumdum. If you want to get kicked
in the head by a horse (again, apparently), go ahead.

..Happy trails,
..Gary (net.yogi.bear)
..------------------------------------------------
..at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence
..
..Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
..Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:24:30 -0400, "tcmedara" <[email protected]>
wrote:

..Scott Burley <[email protected]> wrote:
..>
..> Unfortunately, MV may be right. Though we like to celebrate our
..> 'democracy', most often the group that is simply the loudest gets its
..> demands met.
..>
..There are lots of studies of politics in the US that suggest the key to
..success in the political system is not volume, but organization. You can
..yell and scream all day, but its the groups who get organized who manage to
..sway policy. MV is an idiot who's sole purpose is to spam NG's. He doesn't
..want to debate, he wants to use up bandwidth. For all the brain cells he's
..used staring at his computer he's never accomplished anything.

I got the Lake Oroville trails closed to bikes.

..Just a thought anyway

Right. And a faulty one.

..Tom
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On 24 Aug 2004 00:36:29 -0700, [email protected] (TomV) wrote:

..Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
..
..> Horses are native to North America (they evolved here), and have every right to
..> be here (unshod, of course!).
..>
..
..This seems intuitively correct, given the cowboy and indian movies
..we've all seen. But it is totally wrong! Horses are NOT native to
..the Americas. They were introduced to the continent when the
..Europeans first landed in the "new world."

Nonsense. The first horses evolved in North America. Learn some archaeology.

This is one contributing
..factor noted in the Pulitzer Prize winning book "Guns, Germs, and
..Steel" to explain the rapid domination of the American continent by
..Europeans (imagine being a native going into battle, never having seen
..a horse, and facing 100 armed men riding horses!).

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 04:28:49 GMT, "Scott Burley" <[email protected]>
wrote:

..Gawnsoft <[email protected]> wrote in
..message news:[email protected]...
..> On 24 Aug 2004 00:36:29 -0700, [email protected] (TomV) wrote (more
..> or less):
..>
..> >Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message
..news:<[email protected]>...
..> >
..> >> Horses are native to North America (they evolved here), and have every
..right to
..> >> be here (unshod, of course!).
..> >>
..> >
..> >This seems intuitively correct, given the cowboy and indian movies
..> >we've all seen. But it is totally wrong! Horses are NOT native to
..> >the Americas. They were introduced to the continent when the
..> >Europeans first landed in the "new world."
..>
..> Actually, they were /re/-introduced.
..
..Yep, they died out about 15,000 years ago, and didn't come back until the
..Europeans brought them over.

So, as I said, they are native to North America.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 23:41:46 GMT, "RK" <[email protected]> wrote:

..Actually, horses are not native to North America. They were brought here by
..the Spanish.

Nonsense. The first horses evolved in North America.

.."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..news:[email protected]...
..> On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 00:50:24 GMT, "Peter Bargewell"
..<[email protected]>
..> wrote:
..>
..> .Hi Mike
..> .
..> .Im interested being a fellow hiker any ideas about horses on trails?
..>
..> Horses are native to North America (they evolved here), and have every
..right to
..> be here (unshod, of course!). But I don't believe in using them for
..vehicles.
..> That is an abuse.
..>
..> ===
..> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
..> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
..> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
..>
..> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:50:20 -0700, "pas" <[email protected]> wrote:

..RK wrote:
..> Actually, horses are not native to North America. They were brought
..> here by the Spanish.
..>
..That is correct, but
..there were aso prehistoric horses, probably hunted to extinction, that had
..come over on the land bridge. But they were long gone by the time the
..Spanish horses arrived. Modern day mustangs are nothing but feral horses
..left over from Spanish escapees.

Right. They are re-introduced.

..Penny S
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 05:56:42 GMT, "Scott Burley" <[email protected]>
wrote:

..Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message
..news:[email protected]...
..> On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 08:08:12 GMT, "Scott Burley"
..<[email protected]>
..> wrote:
..>
..> .Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message
..> .news:[email protected]...
..> .> On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 16:15:39 +1000, Aurawolf
..> .> <[email protected]> wrote:
..> .>
..> .> .
..> .> .All this tends to prove is in grand American fashion the group with
..the
..> .> .most people win, to simply put I doubt there was much mountian biking
..> .> .taking place as was stated so there was probably little or no effort
..to
..> .> .fight it and without resistance of course it passed, ok you can thump
..> .> .you chest here, But also in the great nation of ours you can speak
..your
..> .> .voice and carry on like the old man of the moutian that everyone seems
..> .> .to have stopped listening to anyway, have fun keep on typing.
..> .>
..> .> Nope, there was a big effort to stop this from happening (see below).
..This
..> .has
..> .> nothing to do with numbers. There was no voting. A federal agency
..(FERC)
..> .made
..> .> the decision, based on all available information.
..> .
..> .Unfortunately, MV may be right. Though we like to celebrate our
..'democracy',
..> .most often the group that is simply the loudest gets its demands met.
..>
..> I have never seen any hikers be "louder" than mountain bikers. Try again.
..
..Apparently you missed my point, as I have no idea what you are talking
..about.

Then read what you just wrote.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
> .> .Unfortunately, MV may be right. Though we like to celebrate our
> .'democracy',
> .> .most often the group that is simply the loudest gets its demands met.
> .>
> .> I have never seen any hikers be "louder" than mountain bikers. Try
again.
> .
> .Apparently you missed my point, as I have no idea what you are talking
> .about.
>
> Then read what you just wrote.

Presumably, mountain bikers are louder than hikers. Overall, I believe
mountain bikers to be "winning". I was under the impression that you would
think the same, but perhaps I was wrong. What exactly am I supposed to be
trying again?

--
__ __ _ ___ ___
/ _|/ _/ |_ _|_ _|
\_ ( (( o | | | |
|__/\__\_/|_| |_|

[email protected]
 
"pas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> RK wrote:
> > Actually, horses are not native to North America. They were brought
> > here by the Spanish.
> >
> That is correct, but
> there were aso prehistoric horses, probably hunted to extinction, that
had
> come over on the land bridge. But they were long gone by the time the
> Spanish horses arrived. Modern day mustangs are nothing but feral horses
> left over from Spanish escapees.
>
> Penny S
>
>

I seriously doubt that the native peoples around at the time of the
prehestoric horses had the capabilty
to hunt anything to extinction
 
"Lou W" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:MilXc.46413$yh.28868@fed1read05...
>
> "pas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > RK wrote:
> > > Actually, horses are not native to North America. They were brought
> > > here by the Spanish.
> > >
> > That is correct, but
> > there were aso prehistoric horses, probably hunted to extinction, that
> had
> > come over on the land bridge. But they were long gone by the time the
> > Spanish horses arrived. Modern day mustangs are nothing but feral horses
> > left over from Spanish escapees.
> >
> > Penny S
> >
> >
>
> I seriously doubt that the native peoples around at the time of the
> prehestoric horses had the capabilty
> to hunt anything to extinction

Oh, that's funny, that is! You really made me laugh this time.

Humans crossed the land bridge to the Americas about 10k years ago, right?

The large land mammals of the Americas all died out about 8k or 9k years ago.

A lot of the bones that are found have been processed for food (breaking,
cutting, gnawing, cooking etc).

You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to work this one out.
--
"If I ever lose an eye, I'm going to get a glass eye with a big spring
behind it. That way, when I die and Nicko comes to steal my eyes,
when he touches the special one it'll go "SPROINGGGG!!!" and hit him
in the face, or if I'm really lucky, he'll inhale it." - Kibo in ARK
 
On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 06:40:14 GMT, "Scott Burley" <[email protected]>
wrote:

..> .> .Unfortunately, MV may be right. Though we like to celebrate our
..> .'democracy',
..> .> .most often the group that is simply the loudest gets its demands met.
..> .>
..> .> I have never seen any hikers be "louder" than mountain bikers. Try
..again.
..> .
..> .Apparently you missed my point, as I have no idea what you are talking
..> .about.
..>
..> Then read what you just wrote.
..
..Presumably, mountain bikers are louder than hikers. Overall, I believe
..mountain bikers to be "winning".

The evidence shows otherwise> In Oroville, they LOST, in spite of being louder.

I was under the impression that you would
..think the same, but perhaps I was wrong. What exactly am I supposed to be
..trying again?

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 06:10:06 -0700, "Lou W" <[email protected]> wrote:

..
.."pas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..news:[email protected]...
..> RK wrote:
..> > Actually, horses are not native to North America. They were brought
..> > here by the Spanish.
..> >
..> That is correct, but
..> there were aso prehistoric horses, probably hunted to extinction, that
..had
..> come over on the land bridge. But they were long gone by the time the
..> Spanish horses arrived. Modern day mustangs are nothing but feral horses
..> left over from Spanish escapees.
..>
..> Penny S
..>
..>
..
..I seriously doubt that the native peoples around at the time of the
..prehestoric horses had the capabilty
..to hunt anything to extinction

It's true. They wiped out most large mammals. There has been no other plausible
explanation offered.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:11:11 +0200, "Mark South" <[email protected]>
wrote:

.."Lou W" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..news:MilXc.46413$yh.28868@fed1read05...
..>
..> "pas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..> news:[email protected]...
..> > RK wrote:
..> > > Actually, horses are not native to North America. They were brought
..> > > here by the Spanish.
..> > >
..> > That is correct, but
..> > there were aso prehistoric horses, probably hunted to extinction, that
..> had
..> > come over on the land bridge. But they were long gone by the time the
..> > Spanish horses arrived. Modern day mustangs are nothing but feral horses
..> > left over from Spanish escapees.
..> >
..> > Penny S
..> >
..> >
..>
..> I seriously doubt that the native peoples around at the time of the
..> prehestoric horses had the capabilty
..> to hunt anything to extinction
..
..Oh, that's funny, that is! You really made me laugh this time.
..
..Humans crossed the land bridge to the Americas about 10k years ago, right?
..
..The large land mammals of the Americas all died out about 8k or 9k years ago.
..
..A lot of the bones that are found have been processed for food (breaking,
..cutting, gnawing, cooking etc).
..
..You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to work this one out.

Hey! You're too smart to be a mountain biker! :)
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 06:40:14 GMT, "Scott Burley"
<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> .> .> .Unfortunately, MV may be right. Though we like to celebrate our
> .> .'democracy',
> .> .> .most often the group that is simply the loudest gets its demands
met.
> .> .>
> .> .> I have never seen any hikers be "louder" than mountain bikers. Try
> .again.
> .> .
> .> .Apparently you missed my point, as I have no idea what you are talking
> .> .about.
> .>
> .> Then read what you just wrote.
> .
> .Presumably, mountain bikers are louder than hikers. Overall, I believe
> .mountain bikers to be "winning".
>
> The evidence shows otherwise> In Oroville, they LOST, in spite of being
louder.

So there's some anecdotal evidence, but I was speaking generally.

--
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/ _|/ _/ |_ _|_ _|
\_ ( (( o | | | |
|__/\__\_/|_| |_|

[email protected]
 
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