Lactic Tolerance training - Bradley Wiggins approach - any views?

BullGod said:

[font=Arial]Also in the article - observer.guardian.co.uk0,,1789881,00.htmlOpen ↗- he comments that 4 minutes at 580w would win him Olympic Gold in Athens.....man....my 5 minutes at 395 seem pretty crappy now![/font]

Well, my 420 w over 6 minutes still look good. 😎

It all depends on your goals. Btw: what are typical power values (average) for a 5 minutes pursuit if your 1.84 m, 75 kg, aero setup (sitting position OK, read: flat and narrow, rear disc, aero front wheel, aero helmet, shoe covers etc.) on a good concrete outdoor track?

carmol said:

Well, my 420 w over 6 minutes still look good. 😎

It all depends on your goals. Btw: what are typical power values (average) for a 5 minutes pursuit if your 1.84 m, 75 kg, aero setup (sitting position OK, read: flat and narrow, rear disc, aero front wheel, aero helmet, shoe covers etc.) on a good concrete outdoor track?

Cat 1 - 5 minute values are about 5.5 - 6.2 w/kg - you look about 5.6......

elite is about 6.5 - 7 - so at your weight to race elite you'd need about 485w.

we're probably about the same as I weigh 69kg....

My goal is 420w for 5 minutes.

BullGod said:

...[font=Arial]"20 seconds at sprint pace on a rig (I guess he means a trainer??) , 10 seconds rest, 20 seconds again, for three-and-a-half minutes, then 20 minutes rest, then another set."[/font]...

Interesting, sort of the microinterval approach to AC or L6 work. If I understood the similar discussions regarding L4 with an L7 twist a while back I'd guess:

The AP for the work efforts has to be sustainable for the 3 minutes of each set. So that means AP for the on sets has to end up in your L5 range but it could be near the high end. The off periods during each set require some effort so I'd guess they'd be near 50% of FTP.

Based on that you're looking for an on power for 20 seconds that averages against an off power of ~50% for 10 seconds to give you a mid to high L5 power of say 115% of FTP. Sounds like on intervals around 150% of FTP.

I wonder if the on periods could be even harder because you're sort of cheating WRT the body's half life responses. IOW assuming a 30 second half life response you won't feel the full affect in terms of RPE for two minutes or so but you're only doing a 3 minute session and doing that in 20 second bursts. I don't know if this allows you to bump up the AP beyond your normal L5 range or not.

If this results in L6 training it seems it would have to be from the short rest periods between the microintervals and the lack of lactate clearing. Otherwise like other microintervals it doesn't seem to be here nor there but works because of the on/off ratios. I'd be curious to hear from the physiologists on this but it sounds interesting.

-Dave

FWIW, this has nothing to do with AP or FT with L6 twists or whatever.

You have to hammer repeatedly without recovering, no matter how much it hurts. Pretty cool workout.

BullGod said:

Bradley Wiggins wrote in an article in UK paper "The Observer" that a great way to build lactic tolerance and prepare for racing is as follows:

[font=Arial]"20 seconds at sprint pace on a rig (I guess he means a trainer??) , 10 seconds rest, 20 seconds again, for three-and-a-half minutes, then 20 minutes rest, then another set."[/font]

[font=Arial]I am thinking of giving it a try - can any training gurus advise on how often this should be performed?[/font]

[font=Arial]what kind of power (as % of FTP) would be good for the 20 second sprint?[/font]

[font=Arial]Also in the article - observer.guardian.co.uk0,,1789881,00.htmlOpen ↗- he comments that 4 minutes at 580w would win him Olympic Gold in Athens.....man....my 5 minutes at 395 seem pretty crappy now![/font]

Sounds like a combo L6/7 .. possibly L5 limited if the overall power is high enough for the set. I wouldn't know what to make of it.

Spunout said:

FWIW, this has nothing to do with AP or FT with L6 twists or whatever...

Unless I'm much mistaken, AP matters if you actually want to complete the 3 minute work interval.

For instance, if you jumped hard and hit 300% of your FTP during the 20 seconds on and rested at 50% for 10 seconds and held that pattern for the 3 minute interval you'd be trying to hold an AP of 217% of your FTP. Unless you're a very stongly downsloping power profile rider with a high AWC relative to your FTP that will be very hard to sustain for the 3 minutes.

I suppose this is self correcting to some extent, your on bursts could just get weaker and weaker, but if you want to hold the highest sustainable on power during the microintervals you have to plan them relative to sustainable AP for interval duration.

-Dave

I gave it a try yesterday.

I started out with 10s @ 50% FT then ramped it up to 180%FT for 20s....I then aimed to repeat for 3.5 minutes.

The last two "on" intervals had slipped under 150% of FT and I was getting pretty weak.

I did these intervals with standing start for 5 s and then 15 s in the saddle.

Afterwards my legs really felt the "burn" and were a bit trembly. Interestingly on sunday I did a really tough crit with quite a few Dutch pros in the field, and the pain I felt during this session was just the same feeling as the "trying not to get dropped by the pro riders" (and failing).....

so I guess this is a great crit workout.

Any ideas on how often this can be performed? Can I block train it 3 days straight?

I'm sure I read somewhere that Chris Boardman did this workout too.

And what is a 'downsloping' person?

cheers,

Tom

I think a downsloping person refers to the power charts in Dr. Coggan and Allen's book. I think a downsloper is a sprinter (they have high maximum and 1 minute powers and a low FTP, relatively of course).

ihana said:

I'm sure I read somewhere that Chris Boardman did this workout too.

And what is a 'downsloping' person?

cheers,

Tom

I am very much an "upsloping" person....to a ridiculous extent.

Using the Coggan charts I am nudging "exceptional" on FT, Cat 1 on 5 min, but thereafter it goes a bit pear shaped - would be in danger of getting burned in cat 3 over 1 minute, and I get beat by juniors in the sprints sometimes.....

I'm figuring more workouts like the one in this thread might help to address this imbalance. I'm pretty bored of getting dropped in criteriums!

BullGod said:

Bradley Wiggins wrote in an article in UK paper "The Observer" that a great way to build lactic tolerance and prepare for racing is as follows:

[font=Arial]"20 seconds at sprint pace on a rig (I guess he means a trainer??) , 10 seconds rest, 20 seconds again, for three-and-a-half minutes, then 20 minutes rest, then another set."[/font]
[font=Arial][/font]
[font=Arial]I am thinking of giving it a try - can any training gurus advise on how often this should be performed?[/font]
[font=Arial][/font]
[font=Arial]what kind of power (as % of FTP) would be good for the 20 second sprint?[/font]
[font=Arial][/font]
[font=Arial]Also in the article - observer.guardian.co.uk0,,1789881,00.htmlOpen ↗- he comments that 4 minutes at 580w would win him Olympic Gold in Athens.....man....my 5 minutes at 395 seem pretty crappy now![/font]

Don't worry, Wiggin's wasn't near that, I think Boardman was estimated at 520 W when he set his unbroken 4:10 or so 4000 m IP record.

-bikeguy

bikeguy said:

Don't worry, Wiggin's wasn't near that, I think Boardman was estimated at 520 W when he set his unbroken 4:10 or so 4000 m IP record.

-bikeguy

if you read the article he claims to be around 590w now.....I guess he must weigh more than Boardman??

BTW I just read an interview with the founder of Taxc in the Netherlands who says the new trainer is great because you can do 5 minute intervals at 500w....I don't reckon there are many people on the planet who do 5 minute intervals at 500w!

BullGod said:

I am very much an "upsloping" person....to a ridiculous extent.

Using the Coggan charts I am nudging "exceptional" on FT, Cat 1 on 5 min, but thereafter it goes a bit pear shaped - would be in danger of getting burned in cat 3 over 1 minute, and I get beat by juniors in the sprints sometimes.....

I'm figuring more workouts like the one in this thread might help to address this imbalance. I'm pretty bored of getting dropped in criteriums!

Hey Hey hey dont be ashamed...some junior riders have exceptional sprints. Not unheard of for them to break 34-35 seconds over the 500m TT. Freaks.

Not that I can talk I dont have a fast twitch cell in my body :p 😄 !

Maybe Wiggins' training methods are not such a good idea!

On cyclingnews.com today:-

Great Britain's Bradley Wiggins has suffered what he describes as a minor setback ahead of his international track racing return next week, after suffering a suspected groin strain and cuts to the head in a bizarre training accident. The Olympic pursuit champion was thrown over the handlebars of his bike while training on the rollers last week when a sweat towel got caught in the front wheel causing it to lock.

:eek:😄

ihana said:

Maybe Wiggins' training methods are not such a good idea!

On cyclingnews.com today:-

Great Britain's Bradley Wiggins has suffered what he describes as a minor setback ahead of his international track racing return next week, after suffering a suspected groin strain and cuts to the head in a bizarre training accident. The Olympic pursuit champion was thrown over the handlebars of his bike while training on the rollers last week when a sweat towel got caught in the front wheel causing it to lock.

:eek:😄

if that happened to me you'd never hear it! He needs a new publicist 🙂

ihana said:

I'm sure I read somewhere that Chris Boardman did this workout too.

Tom

I beleive he did 10 s on / 50 s off

for an hour....

DB

Doublebiker said:

I beleive he did 10 s on / 50 s off

for an hour....

DB

i don't know about that session (10 on, 50 off), but he used to do 10 on and 10 off

ric

ric_stern/RST said:

i don't know about that session (10 on, 50 off), but he used to do 10 on and 10 off

ric

for an hour??

Please not.....

BullGod said:

if you read the article he claims to be around 590w now.....I guess he must weigh more than Boardman??

BTW I just read an interview with the founder of Taxc in the Netherlands who says the new trainer is great because you can do 5 minute intervals at 500w....I don't reckon there are many people on the planet who do 5 minute intervals at 500w!

If Wiggin's is at 590 W for 4 or 5 he'll break the WR. I think he's no more than 550W in reality.

I did 450 W for 5 min a couple of weeks ago but the indoor ergo I use may be a bit off, I don't know. My FTP is 340, and I have to bust my ass to do the whole hour, I already feel like stopping at 30 min.

-bikeguy