Lacing suggestions

email hidden said:

Hi All,

I recently bought some pre-built wheels which turned out to not really
be up to the task. So now I am going to build some replacements.

First a little background on wheels I have and their various strengths
and weaknesses.

The pre-builts had 20 bladed radial spokes in front, 24 2x bladed
back. The rear hub had high and narrow flanges. The rear felt ok
(until I broke the freehub), but the front was too flexible. The
brakes would rub when I stood. These had 50mm deep aero section.

My every-day wheels are 28 2x front, 32 3x back. Ultegra hubs,
Velocity Deep-V rims. Those are rock solid and plenty stiff. Just not
very aero, and heavy.

I have also a set of lightweight tubulars which are 28 radial front,
28 back 2x drive side, radial NDS. These are on American Classic hubs
which are very narrow with virtually no dish, so the radial NDS is
probably dumb. These wheels are very light, but the rear has a
disconcerting springiness to it. My suspicions are that the narrow
flange spacing and radial NDS are the main culprits. I only mention
these wheels are evidence of why I am skeptical of radial NDS.

So on to the new wheels. The rims are 28h 50mm deep carbon. 32 was not
available. The hubs are Dura Ace 7800. Dura Ace have wider flanges
than the AC, so I'm not too worried about the wheels being too floppy.
I want aero, but also I want solid out of saddle feel like my Deep-
V's.

But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more
laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be CX-Ray.
On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS? Is
there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use CX-Ray
on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs.

Joseph

Friend of mine built radial with Dura-Ace hubs and broke the flange -
one on the front hub then one on the rear. I recommend crossed spokes.

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

I recently bought some pre-built wheels which turned out to not really
be up to the task. So now I am going to build some replacements.

First a little background on wheels I have and their various strengths
and weaknesses.

The pre-builts had 20 bladed radial spokes in front, 24 2x bladed
back. The rear hub had high and narrow flanges. The rear felt ok
(until I broke the freehub), but the front was too flexible. The
brakes would rub when I stood. These had 50mm deep aero section.

My every-day wheels are 28 2x front, 32 3x back. Ultegra hubs,
Velocity Deep-V rims. Those are rock solid and plenty stiff. Just not
very aero, and heavy.

I have also a set of lightweight tubulars which are 28 radial front,
28 back 2x drive side, radial NDS. These are on American Classic hubs
which are very narrow with virtually no dish, so the radial NDS is
probably dumb. These wheels are very light, but the rear has a
disconcerting springiness to it. My suspicions are that the narrow
flange spacing and radial NDS are the main culprits. I only mention
these wheels are evidence of why I am skeptical of radial NDS.

So on to the new wheels. The rims are 28h 50mm deep carbon. 32 was not
available. The hubs are Dura Ace 7800. Dura Ace have wider flanges
than the AC, so I'm not too worried about the wheels being too floppy.
I want aero, but also I want solid out of saddle feel like my Deep-
V's.

But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more
laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be CX-Ray.
On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS? Is
there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use CX-Ray
on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs.

Joseph

Joseph,
Be sure you weigh the wheels you have, including the "every day" wheels.

I was surprised recently to learn that my shop-built wheels on one bike
were NOT tons heavier than the pair of Bontrager Race Lite wheels that I
recently took off of the other bike. I only got as far as weighing the
rear wheels, but the Campy Record/32 DT Swiss spoke/Velocity AeroHead
wheel with the Record cassette on it was only 90 grams heavier than the
24 spoke Race Lite, without a cassette. Unless the Ti/Steel cassette is
awfully light, I was going to do a swap and end up with a heavier rear
wheel and bike.

Now I'm reduced to switching from wire bead Vittoria Rubinos to folding
Rubino Pros to save any more weight. There are 160 grams to be gained
there.

I may have to start eating carefully again....

Colin Campbell said:

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

Quoted message said:

I recently bought some pre-built wheels which turned out to not really
be up to the task. So now I am going to build some replacements.

Quoted message said:

First a little background on wheels I have and their various strengths
and weaknesses.

Quoted message said:

The pre-builts had 20 bladed radial spokes in front, 24 2x bladed
back. The rear hub had high and narrow flanges. The rear felt ok
(until I broke the freehub), but the front was too flexible. The
brakes would rub when I stood. These had 50mm deep aero section.

Quoted message said:

My every-day wheels are 28 2x front, 32 3x back. Ultegra hubs,
Velocity Deep-V rims. Those are rock solid and plenty stiff. Just not
very aero, and heavy.

Quoted message said:

I have also a set of lightweight tubulars which are 28 radial front,
28 back 2x drive side, radial NDS. These are on American Classic hubs
which are very narrow with virtually no dish, so the radial NDS is
probably dumb. These wheels are very light, but the rear has a
disconcerting springiness to it. My suspicions are that the narrow
flange spacing and radial NDS are the main culprits. I only mention
these wheels are evidence of why I am skeptical of radial NDS.

Quoted message said:

So on to the new wheels. The rims are 28h 50mm deep carbon. 32 was not
available. The hubs are Dura Ace 7800. Dura Ace have wider flanges
than the AC, so I'm not too worried about the wheels being too floppy.
I want aero, but also I want solid out of saddle feel like my Deep-
V's.

Quoted message said:

But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more
laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be CX-Ray.
On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS? Is
there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use CX-Ray
on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs.

Quoted message said:

Joseph

Joseph,
Be sure you weigh the wheels you have, including the "every day" wheels.

I was surprised recently to learn that my shop-built wheels on one bike
were NOT tons heavier than the pair of Bontrager Race Lite wheels that I
recently took off of the other bike.  I only got as far as weighing the
rear wheels, but the Campy Record/32 DT Swiss spoke/Velocity AeroHead
wheel with the Record cassette on it was only 90 grams heavier than the
24 spoke Race Lite, without a cassette.  Unless the Ti/Steel cassette is
awfully light, I was going to do a swap and end up with a heavier rear
wheel and bike.

Now I'm reduced to switching from wire bead Vittoria Rubinos to folding
Rubino Pros to save any more weight.  There are 160 grams to be gained
there.

I may have to start eating carefully again....

My Ultegra/Deep-V's aren't that bad, but my lightweight set (built
myself) beats them by about 1100g!

The new ones I'll be making with the DA hubs will be well heavier than
those, but still quite a bit lighter than the every day wheels. But
most importantly, they will be much more aero. Once done, I will have
3 wheelsets each with a distinct character: rugged, light, aero.

Joseph

[email hidden said:

"]Hi All,

I recently bought some pre-built wheels which turned out to not really
be up to the task. So now I am going to build some replacements.

First a little background on wheels I have and their various strengths
and weaknesses.

The pre-builts had 20 bladed radial spokes in front, 24 2x bladed
back. The rear hub had high and narrow flanges. The rear felt ok
(until I broke the freehub), but the front was too flexible. The
brakes would rub when I stood. These had 50mm deep aero section.

My every-day wheels are 28 2x front, 32 3x back. Ultegra hubs,
Velocity Deep-V rims. Those are rock solid and plenty stiff. Just not
very aero, and heavy.

I have also a set of lightweight tubulars which are 28 radial front,
28 back 2x drive side, radial NDS. These are on American Classic hubs
which are very narrow with virtually no dish, so the radial NDS is
probably dumb. These wheels are very light, but the rear has a
disconcerting springiness to it. My suspicions are that the narrow
flange spacing and radial NDS are the main culprits. I only mention
these wheels are evidence of why I am skeptical of radial NDS.

So on to the new wheels. The rims are 28h 50mm deep carbon. 32 was not
available. The hubs are Dura Ace 7800. Dura Ace have wider flanges
than the AC, so I'm not too worried about the wheels being too floppy.
I want aero, but also I want solid out of saddle feel like my Deep-
V's.

But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more
laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be CX-Ray.
On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS? Is
there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use CX-Ray
on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs.

Joseph

Radial provides the stiffest wheel especially if you do heads in:
1. Spokes are the shortest possible
2. Spoke support angle is the highest possible.

Radial NDS only makes sense if you do heads out to attain a lower spoke support angle compared to 2X and thus a more even balance of spoke tension left to right.
CX-Ray are very durable, light and aero, but they aren't as stiff as 14/15 DB spokes. As you well know, they are ~5x more expensive per spoke compared to Sapim Race 14/15 DB. I don't think you get much of the aero contribution from the spokes in the DS rear.

Quoted message said:

Colin Campbell said:

Quoted message said:

Hi All,
I recently bought some pre-built wheels which turned out to not really
be up to the task. So now I am going to build some replacements.
First a little background on wheels I have and their various strengths
and weaknesses.
The pre-builts had 20 bladed radial spokes in front, 24 2x bladed
back. The rear hub had high and narrow flanges. The rear felt ok
(until I broke the freehub), but the front was too flexible. The
brakes would rub when I stood. These had 50mm deep aero section.
My every-day wheels are 28 2x front, 32 3x back. Ultegra hubs,
Velocity Deep-V rims. Those are rock solid and plenty stiff. Just not
very aero, and heavy.
I have also a set of lightweight tubulars which are 28 radial front,
28 back 2x drive side, radial NDS. These are on American Classic hubs
which are very narrow with virtually no dish, so the radial NDS is
probably dumb. These wheels are very light, but the rear has a
disconcerting springiness to it. My suspicions are that the narrow
flange spacing and radial NDS are the main culprits. I only mention
these wheels are evidence of why I am skeptical of radial NDS.
So on to the new wheels. The rims are 28h 50mm deep carbon. 32 was not
available. The hubs are Dura Ace 7800. Dura Ace have wider flanges
than the AC, so I'm not too worried about the wheels being too floppy.
I want aero, but also I want solid out of saddle feel like my Deep-
V's.
But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more
laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be CX-Ray.
On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS? Is
there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use CX-Ray
on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs.
Joseph

Joseph,
Be sure you weigh the wheels you have, including the "every day" wheels.

I was surprised recently to learn that my shop-built wheels on one bike
were NOT tons heavier than the pair of Bontrager Race Lite wheels that I
recently took off of the other bike. I only got as far as weighing the
rear wheels, but the Campy Record/32 DT Swiss spoke/Velocity AeroHead
wheel with the Record cassette on it was only 90 grams heavier than the
24 spoke Race Lite, without a cassette. Unless the Ti/Steel cassette is
awfully light, I was going to do a swap and end up with a heavier rear
wheel and bike.

Now I'm reduced to switching from wire bead Vittoria Rubinos to folding
Rubino Pros to save any more weight. There are 160 grams to be gained
there.

I may have to start eating carefully again....

My Ultegra/Deep-V's aren't that bad, but my lightweight set (built
myself) beats them by about 1100g!

The new ones I'll be making with the DA hubs will be well heavier than
those, but still quite a bit lighter than the every day wheels. But
most importantly, they will be much more aero. Once done, I will have
3 wheelsets each with a distinct character: rugged, light, aero.

Joseph

Then you'll need four more legs on two more bodies, so that you can use
them all!

email hidden said:

But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more
laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be CX-Ray.
On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS? Is
there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use CX-Ray
on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs.

Depends somewhat on the stiffness of the rims... but I'll assume that
they are pretty stiff. If you are using new Dura Ace hubs, then they
should be ok for radial. These will be your "aero" wheels so low gear
mashing is not something you need to worry about... so 2x DS and
radial NDS should be fine. I lace hubs with that spacing radial heads
in on the NDS... the wider bracing angle improves the lateral
stiffness, and provided that you have adequate tension on the DS, you
won't have to worry about the NDS spokes going slack. The NDS tension
will be ~half the DS. Lace the front radial heads-in. Use CX-Rays all
around.

Ron Ruff said:

On May 8, 11:36 am, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more
laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be CX-Ray.
On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS? Is
there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use CX-Ray
on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs.

Depends somewhat on the stiffness of the rims... but I'll assume that
they are pretty stiff. If you are using new Dura Ace hubs, then they
should be ok for radial. These will be your "aero" wheels so low gear
mashing is not something you need to worry about... so 2x DS and
radial NDS should be fine. I lace hubs with that spacing radial heads
in on the NDS... the wider bracing angle improves the lateral
stiffness, and provided that you have adequate tension on the DS, you
won't have to worry about the NDS spokes going slack. The NDS tension
will be ~half the DS. Lace the front radial heads-in. Use CX-Rays all
around.

Sounds good. But is there any specific reason I would be better off
with radial NDS over 2x all the way? While the wheels are aero and
will be used in races that take advantage of that, it may well happen
that there will be short steep hill sprints which will result in huge
torque.

Joseph

Joseph

email hidden said:

Hi All,

I recently bought some pre-built wheels which turned out to not really
be up to the task. So now I am going to build some replacements.

First a little background on wheels I have and their various strengths
and weaknesses.

The pre-builts had 20 bladed radial spokes in front, 24 2x bladed
back. The rear hub had high and narrow flanges. The rear felt ok
(until I broke the freehub), but the front was too flexible. The
brakes would rub when I stood. These had 50mm deep aero section.

My every-day wheels are 28 2x front, 32 3x back. Ultegra hubs,
Velocity Deep-V rims. Those are rock solid and plenty stiff. Just not
very aero, and heavy.

I have also a set of lightweight tubulars which are 28 radial front,
28 back 2x drive side, radial NDS. These are on American Classic hubs
which are very narrow with virtually no dish, so the radial NDS is
probably dumb. These wheels are very light, but the rear has a
disconcerting springiness to it. My suspicions are that the narrow
flange spacing and radial NDS are the main culprits. I only mention
these wheels are evidence of why I am skeptical of radial NDS.

So on to the new wheels. The rims are 28h 50mm deep carbon. 32 was not
available. The hubs are Dura Ace 7800. Dura Ace have wider flanges
than the AC, so I'm not too worried about the wheels being too floppy.
I want aero, but also I want solid out of saddle feel like my Deep-
V's.

But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more
laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be CX-Ray.
On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS? Is
there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use CX-Ray
on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs.

Joseph

At 205 pounds and remembering that CX-rays are pretty thin, 2 cross
front and 3 cross rear, laced inside pulling or head-out, due to the
pulling spoke flange overlap. If you were starting from scratch, at
least 32h rear, IMO.

quote=''On May 9 said:

On May 8, 11:36*am, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more
laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be CX-Ray.
On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS? Is
there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use CX-Ray
on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs.

Depends somewhat on the stiffness of the rims... but I'll assume that
they are pretty stiff. If you are using new Dura Ace hubs, then they
should be ok for radial. These will be your "aero" wheels so low gear
mashing is not something you need to worry about... so 2x DS and
radial NDS should be fine. I lace hubs with that spacing radial heads
in on the NDS... the wider bracing angle improves the lateral
stiffness, and provided that you have adequate tension on the DS, you
won't have to worry about the NDS spokes going slack. The NDS tension
will be ~half the DS. Lace the front radial heads-in. Use CX-Rays all
around.

Sounds good. But is there any specific reason I would be better off
with radial NDS over 2x all the way? While the wheels are aero and
will be used in races that take advantage of that, it may well happen
that there will be short steep hill sprints which will result in huge
torque.

Joseph

Joseph[/QUOTE]
Different lacing patterns do different things in response to dynamic loading of the wheel.
Ron Ruff's radial NDS side suggestion would give you the stiffest wheel because the NDS spokes heads in give the highest possible spoke support angle along with the shortest possible spoke length. My suggestion of heads out gives a more tension balanced approach making the NDS spokes take up more of the load. Either way, if any torque is transmitted to the NDS side spokes, they will increase in tension due to the torque. If you choose 2X NDS any torque transmitted to NDS will be shared with the DS side spokes.
2x NDS is a small compromise in stiffness and load sharing due to the spoke support angles, while assisting in the small amount of torque that is handled on NDS. I would be comfortable building your wheels radial front and 2X both sides rear.

On May 9, 3:32 pm, daveornee <daveornee.395...@no-

mx.forums.cyclingforums.com said:

Quoted message said:

Ron Ruff said:

On May 8, 11:36*am, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote:
> But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more
> laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be

CX-Ray.

Quoted message said:

> On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS?

Is

Quoted message said:

> there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use

CX-Ray

Quoted message said:

> on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Depends somewhat on the stiffness of the rims... but I'll assume

that

Quoted message said:

they are pretty stiff. If you are using new Dura Ace hubs, then they
should be ok for radial. These will be your "aero" wheels so low

gear

Quoted message said:

mashing is not something you need to worry about... so 2x DS and
radial NDS should be fine. I lace hubs with that spacing radial

heads

Quoted message said:

in on the NDS... the wider bracing angle improves the lateral
stiffness, and provided that you have adequate tension on the DS,

you

Quoted message said:

won't have to worry about the NDS spokes going slack. The NDS

tension

Quoted message said:

will be ~half the DS. Lace the front radial heads-in. Use CX-Rays

all

Quoted message said:

around.

Quoted message said:

Sounds good. But is there any specific reason I would be better off
with radial NDS over 2x all the way? While the wheels are aero and
will be used in races that take advantage of that, it may well happen
that there will be short steep hill sprints which will result in huge
torque.

Quoted message said:

Joseph

Quoted message said:

Joseph

Different lacing patterns do different things in response to dynamic
loading of the wheel.
Ron Ruff's radial NDS side suggestion would give you the stiffest wheel
because the NDS spokes heads in give the highest possible spoke support
angle along with the shortest possible spoke length.   My suggestion of
heads out gives a more tension balanced approach making the NDS spokes
take up more of the load.   Either way, if any torque is transmitted to
the NDS side spokes, they will increase in tension due to the torque.
If you choose 2X NDS any torque transmitted to NDS will be shared with
the DS side spokes.
2x NDS is a small compromise in stiffness and load sharing due to the
spoke support angles, while assisting in the small amount of torque that
is handled on NDS.  I would be comfortable building your wheels radial
front and 2X both sides rear.

--
daveornee

There is some interesting stuff here:

http://www.geocities.com/spokeanwheel/lacingsr.htm

My main concern is lateral stiffness in the front, and lateral
stiffnes and torque resistance in the rear. I don't want the brakes to
rub when I am out of the saddle, and I certainly don't want the
occasional "boing" feeling I get with the rear wheel on my lightweight
wheels when I stand in high torque conditions.

So radial in the front sounds like the way to go for stiffness. Heads
in. Pretty straight forward.

What do you guys think about the 2x NDS, 3x DS recommended in the link
above? And the reasoning?

Joseph

[email hidden said:

"]On May 9, 3:32*pm, daveornee <daveornee.395...@no-

mx.forums.cyclingforums.com said:

Quoted message said:

Ron Ruff said:

On May 8, 11:36*am, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote:
> But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more
> laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be

CX-Ray.

Quoted message said:

> On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS?

Is

Quoted message said:

> there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use

CX-Ray

Quoted message said:

> on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Depends somewhat on the stiffness of the rims... but I'll assume

that

Quoted message said:

they are pretty stiff. If you are using new Dura Ace hubs, then they
should be ok for radial. These will be your "aero" wheels so low

gear

Quoted message said:

mashing is not something you need to worry about... so 2x DS and
radial NDS should be fine. I lace hubs with that spacing radial

heads

Quoted message said:

in on the NDS... the wider bracing angle improves the lateral
stiffness, and provided that you have adequate tension on the DS,

you

Quoted message said:

won't have to worry about the NDS spokes going slack. The NDS

tension

Quoted message said:

will be ~half the DS. Lace the front radial heads-in. Use CX-Rays

all

Quoted message said:

around.

Quoted message said:

Sounds good. But is there any specific reason I would be better off
with radial NDS over 2x all the way? While the wheels are aero and
will be used in races that take advantage of that, it may well happen
that there will be short steep hill sprints which will result in huge
torque.

Quoted message said:

Joseph

Quoted message said:

Joseph

Different lacing patterns do different things in response to dynamic
loading of the wheel.
Ron Ruff's radial NDS side suggestion would give you the stiffest wheel
because the NDS spokes heads in give the highest possible spoke support
angle along with the shortest possible spoke length. * My suggestion of
heads out gives a more tension balanced approach making the NDS spokes
take up more of the load. * Either way, if any torque is transmitted to
the NDS side spokes, they will increase in tension due to the torque.
If you choose 2X NDS any torque transmitted to NDS will be shared with
the DS side spokes.
2x NDS is a small compromise in stiffness and load sharing due to the
spoke support angles, while assisting in the small amount of torque that
is handled on NDS. *I would be comfortable building your wheels radial
front and 2X both sides rear.

--
daveornee

There is some interesting stuff here:

http://www.geocities.com/spokeanwheel/lacingsr.htm

My main concern is lateral stiffness in the front, and lateral
stiffnes and torque resistance in the rear. I don't want the brakes to
rub when I am out of the saddle, and I certainly don't want the
occasional "boing" feeling I get with the rear wheel on my lightweight
wheels when I stand in high torque conditions.

So radial in the front sounds like the way to go for stiffness. Heads
in. Pretty straight forward.

What do you guys think about the 2x NDS, 3x DS recommended in the link
above? And the reasoning?

Joseph

Either the reasoning used in the "chapter" is incorrect or I don't understand what he is saying. Either way 3X for 28 hole will not help anything.

http://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/hikingbikinglacing.htm
Suggested lacing pattern to keep shoeslaces away from the chain.

email hidden said:

http://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/hikingbikinglacing.htm
Suggested lacing pattern to keep shoeslaces away from the chain.

Getting a shoelace tangled in the pedal spindle of a fixed gear bike
is no fun!

I think I'll try that pattern.

Joseph

email hidden said:

There is some interesting stuff here:

http://www.geocities.com/spokeanwheel/lacingsr.htm

It sure is interesting, but don't believe most of what you read on
that site...

Quoted message said:

My main concern is lateral stiffness in the front, and lateral
stiffnes and torque resistance in the rear. I don't want the brakes to
rub when I am out of the saddle, and I certainly don't want the
occasional "boing" feeling I get with the rear wheel on my lightweight
wheels when I stand in  high torque conditions.

Your light wheels have a narrow flange spacing and a light rim... this
won't be the case with your aero wheels.

Quoted message said:

So radial in the front sounds like the way to go for stiffness. Heads
in. Pretty straight forward.

Do you have 28 spokes in the front too? If so, you can lace it any way
you want... it will be stiffer than the rear anyway.

Quoted message said:

What do you guys think about the 2x NDS, 3x DS recommended in the link
above? And the reasoning?

That should be ok... but I'm not sure it is ideal. I think Dave said
it well in the post above. If you have a torsionally stiff hub, then
the NDS will be involved in torque transfer if it is cross-laced. This
is good in that it reduces the amount that the DS needs to transfer...
but bad in that the NDS spokes are more likely to go slack from
combined torque, radial, and lateral loads. The trick is figuring out
if NDS spokes going slack is more likely to be an issue than DS spokes
getting overloaded by torque. Unless you are sprinting up steep hills
*in a low gear* the torque isn't going to be a problem with only half
the spokes crossed. So... I still think radial on the NDS would be my
choice.

Ron Ruff said:

On May 9, 10:14 am, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

There is some interesting stuff here:

Quoted message said:

http://www.geocities.com/spokeanwheel/lacingsr.htm

It sure is interesting, but don't believe most of what you read on
that site...

Quoted message said:

My main concern is lateral stiffness in the front, and lateral
stiffnes and torque resistance in the rear. I don't want the brakes to
rub when I am out of the saddle, and I certainly don't want the
occasional "boing" feeling I get with the rear wheel on my lightweight
wheels when I stand in  high torque conditions.

Your light wheels have a narrow flange spacing and a light rim... this
won't be the case with your aero wheels.

Quoted message said:

So radial in the front sounds like the way to go for stiffness. Heads
in. Pretty straight forward.

Do you have 28 spokes in the front too? If so, you can lace it any way
you want... it will be stiffer than the rear anyway.

Quoted message said:

What do you guys think about the 2x NDS, 3x DS recommended in the link
above? And the reasoning?

That should be ok... but I'm not sure it is ideal. I think Dave said
it well in the post above. If you have a torsionally stiff hub, then
the NDS will be involved in torque transfer if it is cross-laced. This
is good in that it reduces the amount that the DS needs to transfer...
but bad in that the NDS spokes are more likely to go slack from
combined torque, radial, and lateral loads. The trick is figuring out
if NDS spokes going slack is more likely to be an issue than DS spokes
getting overloaded by torque. Unless you are sprinting up steep hills
*in a low gear* the torque isn't going to be a problem with only half
the spokes crossed. So... I still think radial on the NDS would be my
choice.

The worst hills I'm worried about are probably 10-14% and short enough
to be stomped in 53x19 or 17 so. This will involve standing of course,
and probably a fair amount of thrashing side to side. So lateral
stiffness could be an issue.

So to make sure I underatand the reasoning: radial up front to be as
stiff laterally as possible, and 2x DS rear to provide torque
transfer, radial NDS (heads in) to provide lateral stiffness. Correct?

Joseph

quote=''On May 9 said:

On May 9, 10:14*am, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

There is some interesting stuff here:

Quoted message said:

http://www.geocities.com/spokeanwheel/lacingsr.htm

It sure is interesting, but don't believe most of what you read on
that site...

Quoted message said:

My main concern is lateral stiffness in the front, and lateral
stiffnes and torque resistance in the rear. I don't want the brakes to
rub when I am out of the saddle, and I certainly don't want the
occasional "boing" feeling I get with the rear wheel on my lightweight
wheels when I stand in *high torque conditions.

Your light wheels have a narrow flange spacing and a light rim... this
won't be the case with your aero wheels.

Quoted message said:

So radial in the front sounds like the way to go for stiffness. Heads
in. Pretty straight forward.

Do you have 28 spokes in the front too? If so, you can lace it any way
you want... it will be stiffer than the rear anyway.

Quoted message said:

What do you guys think about the 2x NDS, 3x DS recommended in the link
above? And the reasoning?

That should be ok... but I'm not sure it is ideal. I think Dave said
it well in the post above. If you have a torsionally stiff hub, then
the NDS will be involved in torque transfer if it is cross-laced. This
is good in that it reduces the amount that the DS needs to transfer...
but bad in that the NDS spokes are more likely to go slack from
combined torque, radial, and lateral loads. The trick is figuring out
if NDS spokes going slack is more likely to be an issue than DS spokes
getting overloaded by torque. Unless you are sprinting up steep hills
*in a low gear* the torque isn't going to be a problem with only half
the spokes crossed. So... I still think radial on the NDS would be my
choice.

The worst hills I'm worried about are probably 10-14% and short enough
to be stomped in 53x19 or 17 so. This will involve standing of course,
and probably a fair amount of thrashing side to side. So lateral
stiffness could be an issue.

So to make sure I underatand the reasoning: radial up front to be as
stiff laterally as possible, and 2x DS rear to provide torque
transfer, radial NDS (heads in) to provide lateral stiffness. Correct?

Joseph[/QUOTE]
sounds correct to me.

email hidden said:

So to make sure I underatand the reasoning: radial up front to be as
stiff laterally as possible, and 2x DS rear to provide torque
transfer, radial NDS (heads in) to provide lateral stiffness. Correct?

Good enough. You could lace the DS 3x... but make sure you check the
angle the spokes make at the rim in any case. I bend the spokes above
the threads a little so that the nipples are more in line with the
holes. I don't know what rim you are using... some are more sensitive
to this than others. You want to avoid having bending loads at that
point, which would stress both the spoke threads and the rim.

Ron Ruff said:

On May 9, 3:32 pm, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

So to make sure I underatand the reasoning: radial up front to be as
stiff laterally as possible, and 2x DS rear to provide torque
transfer, radial NDS (heads in) to provide lateral stiffness. Correct?

Good enough. You could lace the DS 3x... but make sure you check the
angle the spokes make at the rim in any case. I bend the spokes above
the threads a little so that the nipples are more in line with the
holes. I don't know what rim you are using... some are more sensitive
to this than others. You want to avoid having bending loads at that
point, which would stress both the spoke threads and the rim.

Gigantex internal nipple rims.

Joseph

Ron Ruff said:

On May 9, 10:14 am, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

There is some interesting stuff here:

Quoted message said:

http://www.geocities.com/spokeanwheel/lacingsr.htm

It sure is interesting, but don't believe most of what you read on
that site...

Quoted message said:

My main concern is lateral stiffness in the front, and lateral
stiffnes and torque resistance in the rear. I don't want the brakes to
rub when I am out of the saddle, and I certainly don't want the
occasional "boing" feeling I get with the rear wheel on my lightweight
wheels when I stand in  high torque conditions.

Your light wheels have a narrow flange spacing and a light rim... this
won't be the case with your aero wheels.

Quoted message said:

So radial in the front sounds like the way to go for stiffness. Heads
in. Pretty straight forward.

Do you have 28 spokes in the front too? If so, you can lace it any way
you want... it will be stiffer than the rear anyway.

Quoted message said:

What do you guys think about the 2x NDS, 3x DS recommended in the link
above? And the reasoning?

That should be ok... but I'm not sure it is ideal. I think Dave said
it well in the post above. If you have a torsionally stiff hub, then
the NDS will be involved in torque transfer if it is cross-laced. This
is good in that it reduces the amount that the DS needs to transfer...
but bad in that the NDS spokes are more likely to go slack from
combined torque, radial, and lateral loads. The trick is figuring out
if NDS spokes going slack is more likely to be an issue than DS spokes
getting overloaded by torque. Unless you are sprinting up steep hills
*in a low gear* the torque isn't going to be a problem with only half
the spokes crossed. So... I still think radial on the NDS would be my
choice.

Looking at my shiny new 7800 rear hub, I can't imagine it is anything
but torsionally stiff. Any flex it would show under load would have to
be microscopic.

If that is the case, it doesn't matter which side the spokes are on.
Any "pull" spoke transfers torque to the rim, whichever side it is on.
So then it would make sense to have radial on the DS, not the NDS.
That way the shorter spoke and resulting angle helps make up for the
more inboard placement of the DS flange.

This is totally unscientific and anecdotal, but I just took my light
wheels (28h, 2x DS, radial NDS, narrow AC hub flanges) for a short
test, and did some purposefully agressive side to side sprints. It
seems the wheel only have the occasional flop when I lean the bike to
the right, and the rims feels like it flexes in toward the NDS. The
flanges mean there is essentially no dish, so the only real difference
between each side is spoke length and thus angle. The rim does not
seem to flop toward the DS. That makes sense because the NDS is radial
and is in better position to resist.

Joseph