LA Free Bikes?

Michael Cerkowski <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hopefully this is the right newsgroup to ask about hybrid bikes - I don't see any for them.

"hybrid" bikes are hybridized road/mountain bikes. Road-type wheels/tires/gearing; upright position,
straight handlebars, and emphatically *no electric power*.

google for 'electric bicycles' or 'electric-assist...'

Quoted message said:

Anyway, does anyone have any experience with the LA Free Sport bikes? I have a bad knee, and want a
bike that is both easy to pedal in unpowered mode, and offers a strong, long-lasting assist in
powered mode. I've read the company's info on the bikes, but I'd like to read about some real-world
experiences with them. Are they reliable and durable? Do the battery packs last at least 18 months
if cared for properly? Is there a NiMH pack on the horizon? Any friendly responses would be
appreciated.

ease of pedalling is a function of proper gearing. Knee pain can also be a function of poor
positioning/improper fitting on a bicycle.

see

<www.sheldonbrown.com/pain.html> for help on knee issues.

Electric bikes are unnecessarily expensive, heavy, and complicated...I'd go for a conventional
bicycle, with appropriately low gearing, but you and your doctor know your knee best.

The bicycle that you can buy with the same money--without the electrical complications--will be far
better, lighter, more durable, and serviceable...

-Luigi

"Michael Cerkowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hopefully this is the right newsgroup to ask about hybrid

bikes - I

Quoted message said:

don't see any for them. Anyway, does anyone have any

experience with the

Quoted message said:

LA Free Sport bikes? I have a bad knee, and want a bike

that is both

Quoted message said:

easy to pedal in unpowered mode, and offers a strong,

long-lasting

Quoted message said:

assist in powered mode. I've read the company's info on

the bikes, but

Quoted message said:

I'd like to read about some real-world experiences with

them. Are they

Quoted message said:

reliable and durable? Do the battery packs last at least

18 months if

Quoted message said:

cared for properly? Is there a NiMH pack on the horizon?

Any friendly

Quoted message said:

responses would be appreciated.

There have been a bunch of similar bikes on the market, and as far as I'm concerned they're all
non-starters. Any bike with an electric motor and battery capable of hauling you along at all is
going to be very heavy, and a real chore to pedal except on the flattest, most even surface --
especially for someone who's not a conditioned cyclist, and moreso if you have a bad knee. There's
also likely to be extra friction somewhere in the drivetrain, making the situation even worse. Plus,
if it's not using lightweight battery technology already it will really weigh a ton! So any bike
like this will probably be a disaster from a pedaling standpoint, and not a very good powered
vehicle either. I suggest you get a decent regular bicycle, and/or a dedicated electric scooter if
you want one of those. I rode an Oxygen/Lepton scooter awhile ago, and it was fantastic.

Matt O.

Luigi de Guzman said:

Michael Cerkowski <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hopefully this is the right newsgroup to ask about hybrid bikes - I don't see any for them.

"hybrid" bikes are hybridized road/mountain bikes. Road-type wheels/tires/gearing; upright
position, straight handlebars, and emphatically *no electric power*.

google for 'electric bicycles' or 'electric-assist...'

I'm looking for a newsgroup. If anyone knows of one, please post it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anyway, does anyone have any experience with the LA Free Sport bikes? I have a bad knee, and want
a bike that is both easy to pedal in unpowered mode, and offers a strong, long-lasting assist in
powered mode. I've read the company's info on the bikes, but I'd like to read about some
real-world experiences with them. Are they reliable and durable? Do the battery packs last at
least 18 months if cared for properly? Is there a NiMH pack on the horizon? Any friendly
responses would be appreciated.

ease of pedalling is a function of proper gearing. Knee pain can also be a function of poor
positioning/improper fitting on a bicycle.

see

<www.sheldonbrown.com/pain.html> for help on knee issues.

Electric bikes are unnecessarily expensive, heavy, and complicated...I'd go for a conventional
bicycle, with appropriately low gearing, but you and your doctor know your knee best.

The bicycle that you can buy with the same money--without the electrical complications--will be
far better, lighter, more durable, and serviceable...

-Luigi

I've been riding for...seems like forever, and have an 18 speed mountain bike that I guess you'd
call a "hybrid". I need the electric assist for longer rides and for hills, due to my knee and to
other health problems as well. Again, if anyone has experience with these bikes or can direct me
to a newsgroup or US E-bike listserve, I'd appreciate the info.

--

albany.netindex.htmlOpen ↗

Get a moped.

--
- Zilla (Remove XSPAM)

"Michael Cerkowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hopefully this is the right newsgroup to ask about hybrid bikes - I don't see any for them.
Anyway, does anyone have any experience with the LA Free Sport bikes? I have a bad knee, and want
a bike that is both easy to pedal in unpowered mode, and offers a strong, long-lasting assist in
powered mode. I've read the company's info on the bikes, but I'd like to read about some
real-world experiences with them. Are they reliable and durable? Do the battery packs last at
least 18 months if cared for properly? Is there a NiMH pack on the horizon? Any friendly responses
would be appreciated.
--

albany.netindex.htmlOpen ↗

Matt O'Toole said:

"Michael Cerkowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hopefully this is the right newsgroup to ask about hybrid

bikes - I

Quoted message said:

don't see any for them. Anyway, does anyone have any

experience with the

Quoted message said:

LA Free Sport bikes? I have a bad knee, and want a bike

that is both

Quoted message said:

easy to pedal in unpowered mode, and offers a strong,

long-lasting

Quoted message said:

assist in powered mode. I've read the company's info on

the bikes, but

Quoted message said:

I'd like to read about some real-world experiences with

them. Are they

Quoted message said:

reliable and durable? Do the battery packs last at least

18 months if

Quoted message said:

cared for properly? Is there a NiMH pack on the horizon?

Any friendly

Quoted message said:

responses would be appreciated.

There have been a bunch of similar bikes on the market, and as far as I'm concerned they're all
non-starters. Any bike with an electric motor and battery capable of hauling you along at all is
going to be very heavy, and a real chore to pedal except on the flattest, most even surface --
especially for someone who's not a conditioned cyclist, and moreso if you have a bad knee. There's
also likely to be extra friction somewhere in the drivetrain, making the situation even worse.
Plus, if it's not using lightweight battery technology already it will really weigh a ton! So any
bike like this will probably be a disaster from a pedaling standpoint, and not a very good powered
vehicle either. I suggest you get a decent regular bicycle, and/or a dedicated electric scooter if
you want one of those. I rode an Oxygen/Lepton scooter awhile ago, and it was fantastic.

Matt O.

I believe that some of these bikes, including the LA Free, use a one-way clutch to prevent extra
drag from the motor. I understand about the extra weight, but if it rides well on level ground
I'll be using the assist for grades and hills anyway. I'll keep checking this newsgroup for a
couple of days, but I think I may be wasting my time asking hard-core bicyclists about a non
hard-core bicycle...
--

albany.netindex.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

I believe that some of these bikes, including the LA Free, use a one-way clutch to prevent
extra drag from the motor. I understand about the extra weight, but if it rides well on level
ground I'll be using the assist for grades and hills anyway. I'll keep checking this newsgroup
for a couple of days, but I think I may be wasting my time asking hard-core bicyclists about a
non hard-core bicycle...
--

Section snip. I have had dreams of having some type of hill assist for many years. Weight is the
enemy for almost every system I have encounter to date. This includes regenerative electric and
hydraulic At least two members on our bicycle club have bought electric assist bicycle, hoping to
continue to do club rides as they became older. Sadly, they could not keep up with the low lever
club rides of 11 to 13 mph average. Both just rides alone on their regular bicycle on the flats. At
a League of America Bicycle rally in Lancaster PA a few years 12 years ago, a rider equipped his
recumbent with a weed whacker gas motor. He rode the bent from north New Jersey to Lancaster PA,
about 200 miles. He was on the same rally day ride as I, a 11 to 15 mph pace. He only use the assist
for uphill and the pace was about his same as mine, less than 10 mph. With the weed whacker, the
added weigh is minimum, but the noise is too loud for most of us. Lighter batteries an motors can
one day make a different. The segway uses advance technology with its motors, batteries and designs,
still weigh in at 83 pounds. segway.comsegway.comOpen ↗
--
// Bill Cotton: Latitude N40° 03.756' W75° 06.192' / / Phone 215 663-8363 Data 215 663-8364 //
[email hidden] [email hidden] // [email hidden] [email hidden] //
www.billcotton.com

"Michael Cerkowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Matt O'Toole said:

"Michael Cerkowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hopefully this is the right newsgroup to ask about hybrid

bikes - I

Quoted message said:

don't see any for them. Anyway, does anyone have any

experience with the

Quoted message said:

LA Free Sport bikes? I have a bad knee, and want a bike

that is both

Quoted message said:

easy to pedal in unpowered mode, and offers a strong,

long-lasting

Quoted message said:

assist in powered mode. I've read the company's info on

the bikes, but

Quoted message said:

I'd like to read about some real-world experiences with

them. Are they

Quoted message said:

reliable and durable? Do the battery packs last at least

18 months if

Quoted message said:

cared for properly? Is there a NiMH pack on the horizon?

Any friendly

Quoted message said:

responses would be appreciated.

There have been a bunch of similar bikes on the market, and as far as I'm concerned they're all
non-starters. Any bike with an electric motor and battery capable of hauling you along at all is
going to be very heavy, and a real chore to pedal except on the flattest, most even surface --
especially for someone who's not a conditioned cyclist, and moreso if you have a bad knee.
There's also likely to be extra friction somewhere in the drivetrain, making the situation even
worse. Plus, if it's not using lightweight battery technology already it will really weigh a
ton! So any bike like this will probably be a disaster from a pedaling standpoint, and not a
very good powered vehicle either. I suggest you get a decent regular bicycle, and/or a dedicated
electric scooter if you want one of those. I rode an Oxygen/Lepton scooter awhile ago, and it
was fantastic.

Matt O.

albany.netindex.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

I believe that some of these bikes, including the LA Free, use a one-way clutch to prevent
extra drag from the motor. I understand about the extra weight, but if it rides well on level
ground I'll be using the assist for grades and hills anyway. I'll keep checking this newsgroup
for a couple of days, but I think I may be wasting my time asking hard-core bicyclists about a
non hard-core bicycle...

I did look up their website (powerassist.comeyeframe5.htmOpen ↗); these bikes still have
*serious* deficiencies. Among them-

#1: Under *ideal* conditions, max run is 25 miles on the "Lite" version,
just 20 on the standard, and this mileage assumes you're pedaling.

#2: Power output declines, apparently rapidly, during the duration of the
ride. In fact, it contains a warning that hill climbing performance may not be what you expect only
10 miles into a ride (doesn't fit your need for "long lasting" to be sure!).

#3: Expect a 20% decline in battery performance at 45 degrees vs 65. This
is definitely a fair-weather machine (although if, as the name implies, it's targeted at Southern
California, this isn't an issue).

#4: It's questionable how safe it is in traffic, as max speed with motor
assist is 20 miles per hour. This may not be an issue for many, but if you were riding on a
slight decline, I'd suggest this is a serious deficiency. Maneuvering downhill, you're
essentially on your own.

#5: Marketing is deceptive; on the page where it states that "LA FREE gives
you added power" it implies that it can climb a 14% grade. Uh, no. With heavy assistance from *you*
it will climb up to a 14% grade before the overload sensors kick in and the motor stops. Some might
even be fooled into thinking it will go up a hill fast, since they talk about speed and grade in the
same sentence. This is simply not the case. To go up a steep hill will require heavy effort on your
part. Remember what the FAQ said? Output power increases as *your* power increases. You can't just
kick back and take it easy up a hill.

#6: Sizing. If you've read much here, you know that huge differences in
performance and enjoyment come from getting a bike that fits you. The LA FREE bike comes in... one
size for each model. They, of course, list a huge range of adjustability. You *may* be able to be
comfortable under such a scheme, but you won't be efficient.

Conclusion- You originally stated

" I have a bad knee, and want a bike that is both easy to pedal in unpowered mode, and offers a
strong, long-lasting assist in powered mode."

The LA FREE isn't that bike. It's own FAQ says so. Battery and motor technology may eventually get
there, but it's not there yet (at least not at a price that would give a marketable product).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

"Michael Cerkowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Matt O'Toole said:

"Michael Cerkowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hopefully this is the right newsgroup to ask about hybrid

bikes - I

Quoted message said:

don't see any for them. Anyway, does anyone have any

experience with the

Quoted message said:

LA Free Sport bikes? I have a bad knee, and want a bike

that is both

Quoted message said:

easy to pedal in unpowered mode, and offers a strong,

long-lasting

Quoted message said:

assist in powered mode. I've read the company's info on

the bikes, but

Quoted message said:

I'd like to read about some real-world experiences with

them. Are they

Quoted message said:

reliable and durable? Do the battery packs last at least

18 months if

Quoted message said:

cared for properly? Is there a NiMH pack on the horizon?

Any friendly

Quoted message said:

responses would be appreciated.

There have been a bunch of similar bikes on the market, and as far as I'm concerned they're all
non-starters. Any bike with an electric motor and battery capable of hauling you along at all is
going to be very heavy, and a real chore to pedal except on the flattest, most even surface --
especially for someone who's not a conditioned cyclist, and moreso if you have a bad knee.
There's also likely to be extra friction somewhere in the drivetrain, making the situation even
worse. Plus, if it's not using lightweight battery technology already it will really weigh a
ton! So any bike like this will probably be a disaster from a pedaling standpoint, and not a
very good powered vehicle either. I suggest you get a decent regular bicycle, and/or a dedicated
electric scooter if you want one of those. I rode an Oxygen/Lepton scooter awhile ago, and it
was fantastic.

Matt O.

I believe that some of these bikes, including the LA Free, use a one-way clutch to prevent
extra drag from the motor. I understand about the extra weight, but if it rides well on level
ground I'll be using the assist for grades and hills anyway. I'll keep checking this newsgroup
for a couple of days, but I think I may be wasting my time asking hard-core bicyclists about a
non hard-core bicycle...
--

albany.netindex.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

I believe that some of these bikes, including the LA Free, use a one-way clutch to prevent
extra drag from the motor. I understand about the extra weight, but if it rides well on level
ground I'll be using the assist for grades and hills anyway. I'll keep checking this newsgroup
for a couple of days, but I think I may be wasting my time asking hard-core bicyclists about a
non hard-core bicycle...

And in that you may be right.

For the sort of bicycle that you get, the added cost of an electric assist is not really that much
of an enticement to most bicyclists. For the 'nonserious' (I'll not comment on hardness of core)
occasional bicyle user, it's just too damned expensive--you can get a bike for US$50, a passably
good one at US$100-150, and a really good one at US$200-250. Why spend nearly a kilobuck?

For the 'serious' cyclist, the electrical bicycle adds weight, cost, and complication while not
adding anything particularly useful in return.

If your knee is really that bad, and you are already minded to get the bike, then get it. Merely be
aware that, absent its electrical capabilities, the bike you're getting is equivalently specified to
one costing only a little more than a tenth as much, with a great deal of additional weight and
complexity.

-Luigi

billcotton said:

Quoted message said:

I believe that some of these bikes, including the LA Free, use a one-way clutch to prevent
extra drag from the motor. I understand about the extra weight, but if it rides well on level
ground I'll be using the assist for grades and hills anyway. I'll keep checking this
newsgroup for a couple of days, but I think I may be wasting my time asking hard-core
bicyclists about a non hard-core bicycle...
--

Section snip. I have had dreams of having some type of hill assist for many years. Weight is the
enemy for almost every system I have encounter to date. This includes regenerative electric and
hydraulic At least two members on our bicycle club have bought electric assist bicycle, hoping to
continue to do club rides as they became older. Sadly, they could not keep up with the low lever
club rides of 11 to 13 mph average. Both just rides alone on their regular bicycle on the flats.
At a League of America Bicycle rally in Lancaster PA a few years 12 years ago, a rider equipped
his recumbent with a weed whacker gas motor. He rode the bent from north New Jersey to Lancaster
PA, about 200 miles. He was on the same rally day ride as I, a 11 to 15 mph pace. He only use the
assist for uphill and the pace was about his same as mine, less than 10 mph. With the weed
whacker, the added weigh is minimum, but the noise is too loud for most of us. Lighter batteries
an motors can one day make a different. The segway uses advance technology with its motors,
batteries and designs, still weigh in at 83 pounds. segway.comsegway.comOpen ↗
--
// Bill Cotton: Latitude N40° 03.756' W75° 06.192' / / Phone 215 663-8363 Data 215 663-8364 //
[email hidden] [email hidden] // [email hidden] [email hidden]
// www.billcotton.com

Any specific experience with the LA Free bikes? I know that there are a lot of electric assist
bikes out there, and that they are not all equal...

Quoted message said:

"Michael Cerkowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Matt O'Toole said:

"Michael Cerkowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

> Hopefully this is the right newsgroup to ask about hybrid
bikes - I
> don't see any for them. Anyway, does anyone have any
experience with the
> LA Free Sport bikes? I have a bad knee, and want a bike
that is both
> easy to pedal in unpowered mode, and offers a strong,
long-lasting
> assist in powered mode. I've read the company's info on
the bikes, but
> I'd like to read about some real-world experiences with
them. Are they
> reliable and durable? Do the battery packs last at least
18 months if
> cared for properly? Is there a NiMH pack on the horizon?
Any friendly
> responses would be appreciated.

There have been a bunch of similar bikes on the market, and as far as I'm concerned they're
all non-starters. Any bike with an electric motor and battery capable of hauling you along at
all is going to be very heavy, and a real chore to pedal except on the flattest, most even
surface -- especially for someone who's not a conditioned cyclist, and moreso if you have a
bad knee. There's also likely to be extra friction somewhere in the drivetrain, making the
situation even worse. Plus, if it's not using lightweight battery technology already it will
really weigh a ton! So any bike like this will probably be a disaster from a pedaling
standpoint, and not a very good powered vehicle either. I suggest you get a decent regular
bicycle, and/or a dedicated electric scooter if you want one of those. I rode an Oxygen/Lepton
scooter awhile ago, and it was fantastic.

Matt O.

albany.netindex.htmlOpen ↗

--

albany.netindex.htmlOpen ↗

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

I believe that some of these bikes, including the LA Free, use a one-way clutch to prevent
extra drag from the motor. I understand about the extra weight, but if it rides well on level
ground I'll be using the assist for grades and hills anyway. I'll keep checking this
newsgroup for a couple of days, but I think I may be wasting my time asking hard-core
bicyclists about a non hard-core bicycle...

I did look up their website (powerassist.comeyeframe5.htmOpen ↗); these bikes still have
*serious* deficiencies. Among them-

#1: Under *ideal* conditions, max run is 25 miles on the "Lite" version,
just 20 on the standard, and this mileage assumes you're pedaling.

I understand that. When I did 'serious' riding my routes were 10 and 15 miles,and the 15 mile
route was mostly downhill for the second half. I can live with a 15 mile range.

Quoted message said:

#2: Power output declines, apparently rapidly, during the duration of the
ride. In fact, it contains a warning that hill climbing performance may not be what you expect
only 10 miles into a ride (doesn't fit your need for "long lasting" to be sure!).

See above. I want the bike for running 1 or 2 mile errands, and for 10 mile rides in the country.
The latter would include large hills, but they would be no more than 5 miles into the ride.

Quoted message said:

#3: Expect a 20% decline in battery performance at 45 degrees vs 65. This
is definitely a fair-weather machine (although if, as the name implies, it's targeted at Southern
California, this isn't an issue).

That's ok, because I'm a fair weather rider. 😉

Quoted message said:

#4: It's questionable how safe it is in traffic, as max speed with motor
assist is 20 miles per hour. This may not be an issue for many, but if you were riding on a slight
decline, I'd suggest this is a serious deficiency. Maneuvering downhill, you're essentially on
your own.

Why would I want the motor on a downhill run? Anyway, I don't generally ride more than 20mph.

Quoted message said:

#5: Marketing is deceptive; on the page where it states that "LA FREE gives
you added power" it implies that it can climb a 14% grade. Uh, no. With heavy assistance from
*you* it will climb up to a 14% grade before the overload sensors kick in and the motor stops.
Some might even be fooled into thinking it will go up a hill fast, since they talk about speed and
grade in the same sentence. This is simply not the case. To go up a steep hill will require heavy
effort on your part. Remember what the FAQ said? Output power increases as *your* power increases.
You can't just kick back and take it easy up a hill.

I wasn't expecting the bike to do all the work. The motor assists through all 7 gears, and if it
will cut uphill effort in 1st by 50%, then I'll do fine.

Quoted message said:

#6: Sizing. If you've read much here, you know that huge differences in
performance and enjoyment come from getting a bike that fits you. The LA FREE bike comes in... one
size for each model. They, of course, list a huge range of adjustability. You *may* be able to be
comfortable under such a scheme, but you won't be efficient.

I plan to sit on one, and at least ride it in the showroom parking lot, to make sure it fits me
and I like the pedal effort.

Quoted message said:

Conclusion- You originally stated

" I have a bad knee, and want a bike that is both easy to pedal in unpowered mode, and offers a
strong, long-lasting assist in powered mode."

The LA FREE isn't that bike. It's own FAQ says so. Battery and motor technology may eventually get
there, but it's not there yet (at least not at a price that would give a marketable product).

My idea of "long-lasting" is 10-15 miles. I also expect to put in up to 50% of the effort in
climbing hills. Does that change your assessment?

Quoted message said:

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

"Michael Cerkowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Matt O'Toole said:

"Michael Cerkowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

> Hopefully this is the right newsgroup to ask about hybrid
bikes - I
> don't see any for them. Anyway, does anyone have any
experience with the
> LA Free Sport bikes? I have a bad knee, and want a bike
that is both
> easy to pedal in unpowered mode, and offers a strong,
long-lasting
> assist in powered mode. I've read the company's info on
the bikes, but
> I'd like to read about some real-world experiences with
them. Are they
> reliable and durable? Do the battery packs last at least
18 months if
> cared for properly? Is there a NiMH pack on the horizon?
Any friendly
> responses would be appreciated.

There have been a bunch of similar bikes on the market, and as far as I'm concerned they're
all non-starters. Any bike with an electric motor and battery capable of hauling you along at
all is going to be very heavy, and a real chore to pedal except on the flattest, most even
surface -- especially for someone who's not a conditioned cyclist, and moreso if you have a
bad knee. There's also likely to be extra friction somewhere in the drivetrain, making the
situation even worse. Plus, if it's not using lightweight battery technology already it will
really weigh a ton! So any bike like this will probably be a disaster from a pedaling
standpoint, and not a very good powered vehicle either. I suggest you get a decent regular
bicycle, and/or a dedicated electric scooter if you want one of those. I rode an Oxygen/Lepton
scooter awhile ago, and it was fantastic.

Matt O.

I believe that some of these bikes, including the LA Free, use a one-way clutch to prevent
extra drag from the motor. I understand about the extra weight, but if it rides well on level
ground I'll be using the assist for grades and hills anyway. I'll keep checking this
newsgroup for a couple of days, but I think I may be wasting my time asking hard-core
bicyclists about a non hard-core bicycle...
--

albany.netindex.htmlOpen ↗

--

albany.netindex.htmlOpen ↗

Luigi de Guzman said:

Quoted message said:

I believe that some of these bikes, including the LA Free, use a one-way clutch to prevent
extra drag from the motor. I understand about the extra weight, but if it rides well on level
ground I'll be using the assist for grades and hills anyway. I'll keep checking this
newsgroup for a couple of days, but I think I may be wasting my time asking hard-core
bicyclists about a non hard-core bicycle...

And in that you may be right.

For the sort of bicycle that you get, the added cost of an electric assist is not really that much
of an enticement to most bicyclists. For the 'nonserious' (I'll not comment on hardness of core)
occasional bicyle user, it's just too damned expensive--you can get a bike for US$50, a passably
good one at US$100-150, and a really good one at US$200-250. Why spend nearly a kilobuck?

For the 'serious' cyclist, the electrical bicycle adds weight, cost, and complication while not
adding anything particularly useful in return.

If your knee is really that bad, and you are already minded to get the bike, then get it. Merely
be aware that, absent its electrical capabilities, the bike you're getting is equivalently
specified to one costing only a little more than a tenth as much, with a great deal of additional
weight and complexity.

-Luigi

I understand. The bike I've been riding for 15 years is an 18 speed "Gemini" (I think), sold by
Wards. It's a cheap bike, but I don't ask that much of it. If I get the LAF, I won't ask more
than that it lets me run errands and take longer rides than I can now (I'm currently limited to
maybe 6 miles) on mostly level terrain, with a few hills.
--

albany.netindex.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

My idea of "long-lasting" is 10-15 miles. I also expect to put in up to 50% of the effort in
climbing hills. Does that change your assessment?

So essentially what you're looking for is a short-distance commuter or errand bike? Something that
would allow you to "bike" places instead of drive? Sounds like it would work just fine for that!

Regarding your choice of newsgroups, yes, I think you need something more like rec.commute.tech or
rec.alternative.commute (neither of which, far as I know, exist). Hereabouts things are a bit more
closely linked to entirely human-powered two-wheeled transportation. Even recumbents discovered they
didn't quite fit in and needed their own group.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

"Michael Cerkowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

I believe that some of these bikes, including the LA Free, use a one-way clutch to prevent
extra drag from the motor. I understand about the extra weight, but if it rides well on
level ground I'll be using the assist for grades and hills anyway. I'll keep checking this
newsgroup for a couple of days, but I think I may be wasting my time asking hard-core
bicyclists about a non hard-core bicycle...

I did look up their website (powerassist.comeyeframe5.htmOpen ↗); these bikes still have
*serious* deficiencies. Among them-

#1: Under *ideal* conditions, max run is 25 miles on the "Lite"

version,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

just 20 on the standard, and this mileage assumes you're pedaling.

I understand that. When I did 'serious' riding my routes were 10 and 15 miles,and the 15 mile
route was mostly downhill for the second half. I can live with a 15 mile range.

Quoted message said:

#2: Power output declines, apparently rapidly, during the duration of

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ride. In fact, it contains a warning that hill climbing performance may

not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

be what you expect only 10 miles into a ride (doesn't fit your need for "long lasting" to be
sure!).

See above. I want the bike for running 1 or 2 mile errands, and for 10 mile rides in the
country. The latter would include large hills, but they would be no more than 5 miles into the
ride.

Quoted message said:

#3: Expect a 20% decline in battery performance at 45 degrees vs 65.

This

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is definitely a fair-weather machine (although if, as the name implies,

it's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

targeted at Southern California, this isn't an issue).

That's ok, because I'm a fair weather rider. 😉

Quoted message said:

#4: It's questionable how safe it is in traffic, as max speed with

motor

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

assist is 20 miles per hour. This may not be an issue for many, but if

you

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Quoted message said:

were riding on a slight decline, I'd suggest this is a serious

deficiency.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maneuvering downhill, you're essentially on your own.

Why would I want the motor on a downhill run? Anyway, I don't generally ride more than 20mph.

Quoted message said:

#5: Marketing is deceptive; on the page where it states that "LA FREE

gives

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you added power" it implies that it can climb a 14% grade. Uh, no.

With

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heavy assistance from *you* it will climb up to a 14% grade before the overload sensors kick in
and the motor stops. Some might even be fooled into thinking it will go up a hill fast, since
they talk about speed and grade in the same sentence. This is simply not the case. To go up a

steep

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hill will require heavy effort on your part. Remember what the FAQ

said?

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Quoted message said:

Output power increases as *your* power increases. You can't just kick

back

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and take it easy up a hill.

I wasn't expecting the bike to do all the work. The motor assists through all 7 gears, and if
it will cut uphill effort in 1st by 50%, then I'll do fine.

Quoted message said:

#6: Sizing. If you've read much here, you know that huge differences

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

performance and enjoyment come from getting a bike that fits you. The

LA

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

FREE bike comes in... one size for each model. They, of course, list a

huge

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Quoted message said:

range of adjustability. You *may* be able to be comfortable under such

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

scheme, but you won't be efficient.

I plan to sit on one, and at least ride it in the showroom parking lot, to make sure it fits me
and I like the pedal effort.

Quoted message said:

Conclusion- You originally stated

" I have a bad knee, and want a bike that is both easy to pedal in unpowered mode, and offers a
strong, long-lasting assist in powered mode."

The LA FREE isn't that bike. It's own FAQ says so. Battery and motor technology may eventually
get there, but it's not there yet (at least

not at

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a price that would give a marketable product).

My idea of "long-lasting" is 10-15 miles. I also expect to put in up to 50% of the effort in
climbing hills. Does that change your assessment?

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

My idea of "long-lasting" is 10-15 miles. I also expect to put in up to 50% of the effort in
climbing hills. Does that change your assessment?

So essentially what you're looking for is a short-distance commuter or errand bike? Something that
would allow you to "bike" places instead of drive? Sounds like it would work just fine for that!

Those, plus 10-15 mile rides in the country, yes. Work is 22.5 miles away, most of it interstate
driving, but there are local errands I can run on a bike - with a little help.

Quoted message said:

Regarding your choice of newsgroups, yes, I think you need something more like rec.commute.tech or
rec.alternative.commute (neither of which, far as I know, exist). Hereabouts things are a bit more
closely linked to entirely human-powered two-wheeled transportation. Even recumbents discovered
they didn't quite fit in and needed their own group.

I'm a little surprised that there isn't a NG for electric vehicles in general...anyway, thanks
for the input. MC

(...)
--

albany.netindex.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

billcotton said:

Section snip. I have had dreams of having some type of hill assist for many years.

Weight

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is the enemy for almost every system I have encounter to date. This

includes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

regenerative electric and hydraulic At least two members on our bicycle club have bought
electric assist bicycle, hoping to continue to do club rides as they became older.

Sadly,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

they could not keep up with the low lever club rides of 11 to 13 mph average. Both just rides
alone on their regular bicycle on the flats. At a League of America Bicycle rally in Lancaster
PA a few years 12

years

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ago, a rider equipped his recumbent with a weed whacker gas motor. He

rode

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the bent from north New Jersey to Lancaster PA, about 200 miles. He was

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the same rally day ride as I, a 11 to 15 mph pace. He only use the

assist

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for uphill and the pace was about his same as mine, less than 10 mph.

With

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the weed whacker, the added weigh is minimum, but the noise is too loud

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

most of us. Lighter batteries an motors can one day make a different. The segway

uses

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

advance technology with its motors, batteries and designs, still weigh

in at

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

83 pounds. segway.comsegway.comOpen ↗
--

Any specific experience with the LA Free bikes? I know that there are a lot of electric assist
bikes out there, and that they are not all equal...

No experience with the LA Free Bikes. I visit their web page to find the weight and didn't find
reference to weight. I did see that their dealer allows test rides. One way clutches are common to
assist bicycles, the horse power need to move the total weight is also common. The Wright brothers
couldn't fly until a motor was developed that could lift it own weight plus. Advances in lighter
motors and fuel will make this possible, weed whacker motors now giver the most power vs. added
weight, that is easily available, moped2.orgdisplay message.aspOpen ↗

--
// Bill Cotton: Latitude N40° 03.756' W75° 06.192' / / Phone 215 663-8363 Data 215 663-8364 //
[email hidden] [email hidden] // [email hidden] [email hidden] //
www.billcotton.com

"Michael Cerkowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

billcotton said:

Quoted message said:

I believe that some of these bikes, including the LA Free, use a one-way clutch to prevent
extra drag from the motor. I understand about the extra weight, but if it rides well on
level ground I'll be using the assist for grades and hills anyway. I'll keep checking this
newsgroup for a couple of days, but I think I may be wasting my time asking hard-core
bicyclists about a non hard-core bicycle...
--

Section snip. I have had dreams of having some type of hill assist for many years.

Weight

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is the enemy for almost every system I have encounter to date. This

includes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

regenerative electric and hydraulic At least two members on our bicycle club have bought
electric assist bicycle, hoping to continue to do club rides as they became older.

Sadly,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

they could not keep up with the low lever club rides of 11 to 13 mph average. Both just rides
alone on their regular bicycle on the flats. At a League of America Bicycle rally in Lancaster
PA a few years 12

years

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ago, a rider equipped his recumbent with a weed whacker gas motor. He

rode

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the bent from north New Jersey to Lancaster PA, about 200 miles. He was

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the same rally day ride as I, a 11 to 15 mph pace. He only use the

assist

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for uphill and the pace was about his same as mine, less than 10 mph.

With

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the weed whacker, the added weigh is minimum, but the noise is too loud

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

most of us. Lighter batteries an motors can one day make a different. The segway

uses

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

advance technology with its motors, batteries and designs, still weigh

in at

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

83 pounds. segway.comsegway.comOpen ↗
--
// Bill Cotton: Latitude N40° 03.756' W75° 06.192' / / Phone 215 663-8363 Data 215 663-8364 //
[email hidden] [email hidden] // [email hidden] [email hidden]
// www.billcotton.com

Any specific experience with the LA Free bikes? I know that there are a lot of electric assist
bikes out there, and that they are not all equal...

Quoted message said:

"Michael Cerkowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Matt O'Toole wrote:
>
> "Michael Cerkowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
>
> > Hopefully this is the right newsgroup to ask about hybrid
> bikes - I
> > don't see any for them. Anyway, does anyone have any
> experience with the
> > LA Free Sport bikes? I have a bad knee, and want a bike
> that is both
> > easy to pedal in unpowered mode, and offers a strong,
> long-lasting
> > assist in powered mode. I've read the company's info on
> the bikes, but
> > I'd like to read about some real-world experiences with
> them. Are they
> > reliable and durable? Do the battery packs last at least
> 18 months if
> > cared for properly? Is there a NiMH pack on the horizon?
> Any friendly
> > responses would be appreciated.
>
> There have been a bunch of similar bikes on the market, and as far as I'm concerned they're
> all non-starters. Any bike with an electric motor and battery capable of hauling you along
> at all is going to be very heavy, and a real chore to pedal except on the flattest, most
> even surface -- especially for someone who's not a conditioned cyclist, and moreso if you
> have a bad knee. There's also likely to be extra friction somewhere in the drivetrain,
> making the situation even worse. Plus, if it's not using lightweight battery technology
> already it will really weigh a ton! So any bike like this will probably be a disaster from a
> pedaling standpoint, and not a very good powered vehicle either. I suggest you get a decent
> regular bicycle, and/or a dedicated electric scooter if you want one of those. I rode an
> Oxygen/Lepton scooter awhile ago, and it was fantastic.
>
> Matt O.

albany.netindex.htmlOpen ↗

--

albany.netindex.htmlOpen ↗

Michael Cerkowski said:

I understand. The bike I've been riding for 15 years is an 18 speed "Gemini" (I think), sold by
Wards. It's a cheap bike, but I don't ask that much of it. If I get the LAF, I won't ask more
than that it lets me run errands and take longer rides than I can now (I'm currently limited to
maybe 6 miles) on mostly level terrain, with a few hills.

If you're gonna spend that kind of cash on a bicycle, why not find a good local bicycle shop and see
what they have? As other posts on this thread will tell you, knee problems can arise from bad
fitting on a bicycle; a less expensive, but better fitting, bicycle will be more comfortable and
easier on your body.

Learn to shift, as well--knee problems come from pushing very high gears up hills unnecessarily.
spin light and easy; better to be geared a bit too low than a bit too high. www.sheldonbrown.com
will tell you almost everything you need to know in this respect.

-Luigi

billcotton said:

Lighter batteries an motors can one day make a different. The segway uses advance technology with
its motors, batteries and designs, still weigh in at 83 pounds. segway.comsegway.comOpen ↗

The Segway's motors have a maximum output of 5000 watts, whereas most electric-assist bikes have
nominal output of 250 to 500 watts.

The LA Free Lite diamond-frame bike weighs 39 lbs, and its NiMH battery pack weighs an additional 9
lbs. That's not too bad considering that the pedal-only equivalent of that bike would probably
exceed 30 lbs.

Chalo Colina

Bluto said:

billcotton said:

Lighter batteries an motors can one day make a different. The segway uses advance technology
with its motors, batteries and designs, still weigh in at 83 pounds. segway.comsegway.comOpen ↗

The Segway's motors have a maximum output of 5000 watts, whereas most electric-assist bikes have
nominal output of 250 to 500 watts.

The LA Free Lite diamond-frame bike weighs 39 lbs, and its NiMH battery pack weighs an additional
9 lbs. That's not too bad considering that the pedal-only equivalent of that bike would probably
exceed 30 lbs.

Chalo Colina

Thnaks for the info. Do you have a weight for the Sport Slope Tube model? I know it'll be
heavier if only because of the lead acid gel battery, but I'm hoping a NiMH pack will be
available shortly.
--

albany.netindex.htmlOpen ↗

billcotton said:

Quoted message said:

billcotton said:

Section snip. I have had dreams of having some type of hill assist for many years.

Weight

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is the enemy for almost every system I have encounter to date. This

includes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

regenerative electric and hydraulic At least two members on our bicycle club have bought
electric assist bicycle, hoping to continue to do club rides as they became older.

Sadly,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

they could not keep up with the low lever club rides of 11 to 13 mph average. Both just rides
alone on their regular bicycle on the flats. At a League of America Bicycle rally in Lancaster
PA a few years 12

years

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ago, a rider equipped his recumbent with a weed whacker gas motor. He

rode

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the bent from north New Jersey to Lancaster PA, about 200 miles. He was

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the same rally day ride as I, a 11 to 15 mph pace. He only use the

assist

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for uphill and the pace was about his same as mine, less than 10 mph.

With

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the weed whacker, the added weigh is minimum, but the noise is too loud

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

most of us. Lighter batteries an motors can one day make a different. The segway

uses

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

advance technology with its motors, batteries and designs, still weigh

in at

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

83 pounds. segway.comsegway.comOpen ↗
--

Any specific experience with the LA Free bikes? I know that there are a lot of electric
assist bikes out there, and that they are not all equal...

No experience with the LA Free Bikes. I visit their web page to find the weight and didn't find
reference to weight. I did see that their dealer allows test rides. One way clutches are common to
assist bicycles, the horse power need to move the total weight is also common. The Wright brothers
couldn't fly until a motor was developed that could lift it own weight plus. Advances in lighter
motors and fuel will make this possible, weed whacker motors now giver the most power vs. added
weight, that is easily available, moped2.orgdisplay message.aspOpen ↗

Thanks, but I have no interest in using a dirty two-stroke motor. I'm only interested in
electric assist.

(...)
--

albany.netindex.htmlOpen ↗

Luigi de Guzman said:

Michael Cerkowski said:

I understand. The bike I've been riding for 15 years is an 18 speed "Gemini" (I think), sold
by Wards. It's a cheap bike, but I don't ask that much of it. If I get the LAF, I won't ask
more than that it lets me run errands and take longer rides than I can now (I'm currently
limited to maybe 6 miles) on mostly level terrain, with a few hills.

If you're gonna spend that kind of cash on a bicycle, why not find a good local bicycle shop and
see what they have? As other posts on this thread will tell you, knee problems can arise from bad
fitting on a bicycle; a less expensive, but better fitting, bicycle will be more comfortable and
easier on your body.

No amount of fitting or gearing will overcome the problems I have with fatigue - unless there is
an antigravity device out there...? 😉

Quoted message said:

Learn to shift, as well--knee problems come from pushing very high gears up hills unnecessarily.
spin light and easy; better to be geared a bit too low than a bit too high. www.sheldonbrown.com
will tell you almost everything you need to know in this respect.

-Luigi

I do know how to shift. My body makes it quite clear when I'm not using a low enough, gear,
believe me. I take most hills in mid-range 1st, and all large ones in low-range 1st.

--

albany.netindex.htmlOpen ↗