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Kona=Hype In Writing

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Mountain Bikes
Published
23 January 2003
Last activity
23 January 2003
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Jd
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  1. Thanks for this link Slacker. The mere fact that they see things in black and white, to include
    lameo kona's hype-driven fantasy marketing to the feeble masses.

    mtbcomprador.comenglish

    Found under "Bogus Marketing":

    "To be fair, we must note that many companies make claims for no suspension bob and 100% efficiency.
    But without question, the most egregious example of bogus marketing we have ever seen regarding
    bicycle rear suspensions comes from Kona, in their ads for the King Kikapu and Mokomoko [see page 7,
    Mountain Bike Action, May 2001].

    The ad claims, "SHOCK FUNCTION IS AFFECTED BY WEIGHT, FORCE AND GRAVITY – NOT BY PEDALLING_". One
    can tell that this was not written by anyone with any significant technical knowledge. An object's
    "WEIGHT" is a measure of the attractive "FORCE" between the earth and that object due to "GRAVITY".
    Your guess is as good as ours. (The language here is very reminiscent of those VW commercials where
    they claim that they get "a maxim amount of volume in a minimum amount of space" – !?!?)

    Humorous wording aside, the phrase does claim no pedal activation of the shock, so we have a more
    serious issue to consider. Since the rear pivot is on the seat stay in these designs (more on this
    later) we know that the designs are essentially mono-pivots under pedaling, with the upper links
    acting as suspension tuning. We have proven directly that no mono-pivot is completely non-reactive
    to pedaling, so we know immediately that Kona the claim is certainly not true. For example, there
    are no qualifications for gearing.

    The ad goes on to claim, "SHOCK IS MOUNTED IN LINE WITH SEAT TUBE ALLOWING SMOOTH SHOCK FUNCTION AND
    SUPERIOR SHOCK RESPONSIVENESS_". By "IN LINE", we suppose that they mean parallel to the seat tube.
    But there are an infinity of other directions that the shock could be mounted that would allow the
    same "SMOOTH" shock function (witness the Ventana Marble Peaks, and Rocky Mountains), so we ask,
    "What is the point?" We also ask, "‘SUPERIOR' compared to what?" Not to any of the competing designs
    we are aware of anyway. Does Kona believe that a shock mounted out of plane to the frame is viable
    enough to merit a comparison?

    Lastly, the ad claims that, "REAR STAY PIVOT MOUNTED ON SEATSTAY INSTEAD OF CHAINSTAY SO ALSO NOT
    AFFECTED BY PEDALING FORCES_". Here is the most abject bit of nonsense. What is not "AFFECTED"?
    Clearly the reader is to believe it is the suspension. Again, the "SEATSTAY" pivot essentially makes
    these bikes mono-pivots (upper link suspension tuning aside). This fact, in and of itself, is
    irrelevant to the degree with which the design is "AFFECTED" by pedaling forces.

    Is this a deliberate attempt to mislead potential customers or just a case of extreme ignorance? We
    leave the answer to the readers. We simply conclude that when it comes to suspension ad mumbo-jumbo,
    Kona is King."

    I'd like to flip a virtual middle finger now to all of the dingwads who tout how great kona is
    without any substance to back up their hype-fed false claims. Deception begins at marketing and ends
    in cut corners and crappy bikes.

    JD laughing hysterically

  2. JD said:

    Thanks for this link Slacker. The mere fact that they see things in black and white, to include
    lameo kona's hype-driven fantasy marketing to the feeble masses.

    mtbcomprador.comenglish

    Quoted message said:

    snip<

    I do like this though:

    "Being currently unique in its ability to produce significantly variable curvature, the VPP concept
    is probably the most intriguing design out at the present time."

    Whether or not the blur or the spider XVP actually does what its supposed to is another story.

    Oh, and it might be a while before my blur test. People are buying the things like hotcakes, before
    they even get to the store, let alone are built up. Buying into hype that much is not cool. I'm
    willing to test stuff because it sounds sweet, but i'm not going to just throw money at the "next
    big thing".

    Jon "Commander" Bond anybody seen my Segway? I ordered it like a year ago...

  3. "JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Thanks for this link Slacker. The mere fact that they see things in black and white, to include
    lameo kona's hype-driven fantasy marketing to the feeble masses.

    mtbcomprador.comenglish

    "This theory states that locating a mono-pivot pivot along the chain force line will eliminate
    suspension activation under pedaling. Most mono-pivot producers, including Santa Cruz, Marin, and
    Ellsworth's Aeon division produce bikes based on this theory. Some take this to mean with
    acceleration (Ellsworth) and some without (Santa Cruz). A notable exception is the Titus Loco Moto."

    Yay! My bike got mentioned in the section where they were disproving the theory of "Pivot at the
    Chain Line" ...and it happens to be the one that doesn't use it. I knew good ol' Titus wouldn't let
    me down...

    -John Morgan
    --
    To reply, please remove NOSPAM from the return address.

  4. (JD) said:

    Thanks for this link Slacker. The mere fact that they see things in black and white, to include
    lameo kona's hype-driven fantasy marketing to the feeble masses.


    [snip hype]

    Take a close look at everything. It's not just Kona on the Hypewagon. Most everyone who mountain
    bikes, including me, are or have been taken in by hype. Whether it's mono pivots, disc brakes, bar
    ends, phat tyres, split seats, riser bars, suspensions.....27 friggin' gears!

    Lets face it were all riding on some hyped up BS.

    There's a need to get back to the basics, before Marketers and Corporations got into this and
    tweaked our minds.

    SS is a start.

    Peace, Bill(still affected by the hypemachine, but getting better)Wheeler. The mind serves properly
    as a window glass rather than as a reflector, that is, the mind should give an immediate view
    instead of an interpretation of the world.
    :-]

  5. Quoted message said:

    I'd like to flip a virtual middle finger now to all of the dingwads who tout how great kona is
    without any substance to back up their hype-fed false claims.

    I think owning a Kona and enjoying it is all the substance anyone needs to send that finger right
    back to you.

    Quoted message said:

    Deception begins at marketing..............

    Oh [censored] off, like Bill said, every company hypes some type of so called technology on their bikes,
    but that's no reason to say that any one company has cut corners on design.

  6. Yes, congratulations JD, you've enlightened us all. Who knew advertising was deceptive? Man, that
    sure sucks. Kona bikes must really be [censored]. Glad I bought my Murray when I did.

    Chris

    "JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Thanks for this link Slacker. The mere fact that they see things in black and white, to include
    lameo kona's hype-driven fantasy marketing to the feeble masses.

    mtbcomprador.comenglish

    Found under "Bogus Marketing":

    "To be fair, we must note that many companies make claims for no suspension bob and 100%
    efficiency. But without question, the most egregious example of bogus marketing we have ever seen
    regarding bicycle rear suspensions comes from Kona, in their ads for the King Kikapu and Mokomoko
    [see page 7, Mountain Bike Action, May 2001].

    The ad claims, "SHOCK FUNCTION IS AFFECTED BY WEIGHT, FORCE AND GRAVITY - NOT BY PEDALLING_". One
    can tell that this was not written by anyone with any significant technical knowledge. An
    object's "WEIGHT" is a measure of the attractive "FORCE" between the earth and that object due to
    "GRAVITY". Your guess is as good as ours. (The language here is very reminiscent of those VW
    commercials where they claim that they get "a maxim amount of volume in a minimum amount of
    space" - !?!?)

    Humorous wording aside, the phrase does claim no pedal activation of the shock, so we have a more
    serious issue to consider. Since the rear pivot is on the seat stay in these designs (more on this
    later) we know that the designs are essentially mono-pivots under pedaling, with the upper links
    acting as suspension tuning. We have proven directly that no mono-pivot is completely non-reactive
    to pedaling, so we know immediately that Kona the claim is certainly not true. For example, there
    are no qualifications for gearing.

    The ad goes on to claim, "SHOCK IS MOUNTED IN LINE WITH SEAT TUBE ALLOWING SMOOTH SHOCK FUNCTION
    AND SUPERIOR SHOCK RESPONSIVENESS_". By "IN LINE", we suppose that they mean parallel to the seat
    tube. But there are an infinity of other directions that the shock could be mounted that would
    allow the same "SMOOTH" shock function (witness the Ventana Marble Peaks, and Rocky Mountains), so
    we ask, "What is the point?" We also ask, "'SUPERIOR' compared to what?" Not to any of the
    competing designs we are aware of anyway. Does Kona believe that a shock mounted out of plane to
    the frame is viable enough to merit a comparison?

    Lastly, the ad claims that, "REAR STAY PIVOT MOUNTED ON SEATSTAY INSTEAD OF CHAINSTAY SO ALSO NOT
    AFFECTED BY PEDALING FORCES_". Here is the most abject bit of nonsense. What is not "AFFECTED"?
    Clearly the reader is to believe it is the suspension. Again, the "SEATSTAY" pivot essentially
    makes these bikes mono-pivots (upper link suspension tuning aside). This fact, in and of itself,
    is irrelevant to the degree with which the design is "AFFECTED" by pedaling forces.

    Is this a deliberate attempt to mislead potential customers or just a case of extreme ignorance?
    We leave the answer to the readers. We simply conclude that when it comes to suspension ad
    mumbo-jumbo, Kona is King."

    I'd like to flip a virtual middle finger now to all of the dingwads who tout how great kona is
    without any substance to back up their hype-fed false claims. Deception begins at marketing and
    ends in cut corners and crappy bikes.

    JD laughing hysterically

  7. In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:
    (JD) said:

    Thanks for this link Slacker. The mere fact that they see things in black and white, to include
    lameo kona's hype-driven fantasy marketing to the feeble masses.


    [snip hype]

    Take a close look at everything. It's not just Kona on the Hypewagon. Most everyone who mountain
    bikes, including me, are or have been taken in by hype. Whether it's mono pivots, disc brakes, bar
    ends, phat tyres, split seats, riser bars, suspensions.....27 friggin' gears!

    Lets face it were all riding on some hyped up BS.

    There's a need to get back to the basics, before Marketers and Corporations got into this and
    tweaked our minds.

    That sounds suspiciously like a catch phrase thought up by marketers, Bill! 🙂
    --
    _________________________
    Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia ramsays-online.comramsays-online.com

  8. "Chrispy" <[email hidden]> top posted
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Yes, congratulations JD, you've enlightened us all. Who knew advertising was deceptive? Man, that
    sure sucks. Kona bikes must really be [censored]. Glad I bought my Murray when I did.

    Howzat hook taste?

    JD

  9. "JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Chrispy" <[email hidden]> top posted
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Yes, congratulations JD, you've enlightened us all. Who knew


    advertising

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    was deceptive? Man, that sure sucks. Kona bikes must really be [censored].


    Glad

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I bought my Murray when I did.

    Howzat hook taste?

    JD

    You get an honorary cold one lifted for that one........

    Molson Ice ok?

    Marty

  10. "Martees" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qyqL9.16766$K5.15065@fe01...

    Quoted message said:

    You get an honorary cold one lifted for that one........

    Molson Ice ok?

    Send the case over this way...

    - CA-G

    Canadian Girls Kick Ass!

  11. In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    "Martees" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qyqL9.16766$K5.15065@fe01...

    Quoted message said:

    You get an honorary cold one lifted for that one........

    Molson Ice ok?

    Send the case over this way...

    - CA-G

    Canadian Girls Kick Ass!


    Sorry, you American's gotta drink the beer that brung ya!
    --
    _________________________
    Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia ramsays-online.comramsays-online.com

  12. "Chris Phillipo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Sorry, you American's gotta drink the beer that brung ya!

    We have Ice here, and believe it or not, it sells for cheaper than the American sludge.

    - CA-G Yuengling still dominates in our house...

    Canadian Girls Kick Ass!

  13. Carla A-G said:

    We have Ice here, and believe it or not, it sells for cheaper than the American sludge.

    Penny, it's downright insulting that you'd compare American beer to sludge.

    After all, there are, I'm sure, sludge makers out there who are quite proud of their product...

    That said, though most of the "major brands" are swill, there are some smaller breweries turning out
    serviceable suds.

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

  14. "Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Carla A-G said:

    We have Ice here, and believe it or not, it sells for cheaper than the American sludge.

    You got Penny on the mind there, Mark!

    Bill "a Carla for your thoughts" S.

  15. "Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Carla A-G said:

    We have Ice here, and believe it or not, it sells for cheaper than the American sludge.

    Penny, it's downright insulting that you'd compare American beer to sludge.

    Actually, it was me who compared American beer to sludge, not Penny.

    Quoted message said:

    After all, there are, I'm sure, sludge makers out there who are quite proud of their product...

    No doubt.

    Quoted message said:

    That said, though most of the "major brands" are swill, there are some smaller breweries turning
    out serviceable suds.

    I agree, that's why I like Yuengling from PA.

    - CA-G

    Canadian Girls Kick Ass!

  16. "Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Carla A-G said:

    We have Ice here, and believe it or not, it sells for cheaper than the American sludge.

    Penny, it's downright insulting that you'd compare American beer to sludge.

    Mark, your attributions are totally screwed up. That wastn' me. And to think I was just going to
    refer someone to your site...

    Penny

    Quoted message said:

    After all, there are, I'm sure, sludge makers out there who are quite proud of their product...

    That said, though most of the "major brands" are swill, there are some smaller breweries turning
    out serviceable suds.

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

  17. Sorni <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Carla A-G said:

    We have Ice here, and believe it or not, it sells for cheaper than the American sludge.

    You got Penny on the mind there, Mark!

    Bill "a Carla for your thoughts" S.

    Ouch!

    Shaun aRe - A Freudian slip, that some kinda underskirt?

  18. Carla A-G said:

    "Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Carla A-G said:

    We have Ice here, and believe it or not, it sells for cheaper than the American sludge.

    Penny, it's downright insulting that you'd compare American beer to sludge.

    Actually, it was me who compared American beer to sludge, not Penny.

    Ack! I have NO idea how THAT happened. Must have been that sludge I was drinking!

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

  19. penny s <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Carla A-G said:

    We have Ice here, and believe it or not, it sells for cheaper than the American sludge.

    Penny, it's downright insulting that you'd compare American beer to sludge.

    Mark, your attributions are totally screwed up. That wastn' me. And to think I was just going to
    refer someone to your site...

    Don't worry Penny - his bikes are solid, it's only himself that falls apart.

    Shaun aRe

  20. Shaun Rimmer said:


    Sorni <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Carla A-G" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    >We have Ice here, and believe it or not, it sells for cheaper than the American sludge.

    You got Penny on the mind there, Mark!

    Bill "a Carla for your thoughts" S.

    Ouch!

    Shaun aRe - A Freudian slip, that some kinda underskirt?

    Heh heh... Methinks you're overanalyzing. I think the technical term for what happened is "brain
    fart". But if I start having dreams about Penny as my mother or something, I'll let you know... ;-)

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

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