Kona bottom bracket and headset

Quoted message said:

So what's my best approach?. Can I get the appropriate tools or are
they simply not available anymore?.

While you're waiting for other responses, www.parktool.com has a good
repair section.

Dave said:

Hi All,
I've got a Kona Lava Dome MTB which is now about 10 years old. I'm
using it more frequently these days, but it's showing its age.
Firstly, I had suspected that the headset bearings were going when the
steering became 'crunchy'. Secondly, there is considerable slack in
the bottom bracket to the point that on half the cycle, the chain
rubbed against the derailer.

Being an engineer by trade I have bravely decided to fix these
problems. First, I took the headset to bits. The top headset bearing
looked OK but the bottom one fell to pieces with ball bearings flying
around. It was also very rusty and clearly no oil or grease had passed
that way for some time. Clearly this bearing is knackered, but where
can I get a replacement?. The young herbert from halfords suggested
that I should replace the headset which I thought was completely
unnecessary when a replacement bearing would do the job.

I'm assuming it's the traditional type of headset (since cartridge bearings
don't send balls flying around). Please ignore the following if I'm wrong
about that.

What is "the bearing"? Caged set of balls? It's no good just replacing
them if the races are knackered (pitted) as well - and that's likely in this
case. The Halfords employee is not such a herbert because it will be
cheaper to replace the whole headset than find replacement cups and crown
race, even if that was possible. They're not terribly expensive.

Quoted message said:

So my first
questions is, how do I go about getting a replacement for this bearing
and is it likely to be Kona-specific or am I likely to be able to get
this from another supplier?

The balls will be of one of the common sizes. You'll find replacements in
any decent bike shop: caged, or preferably uncaged, will do.

If replacing the whole headset, you'll have a choice of various makes and
models. Just make sure the diameter and stack height is compatible. Find
more info on headset terms, standards and instructions on the Park Tools
website and www.sheldonbrown.com .

/snip

Quoted message said:

The next problem (the bottom bracket) seems to require a number of
specific tools to 'crack' it open. Firstly, I used a crack remover to
get that out of the way. Next I am faced with a chrome ring 6 notches
around the edge. See picture:

http://www.moorenet.co.uk/IMG_0875.JPG

Link doesn't work for me.

Quoted message said:

Now, I've seen a number of tools on the web for unscrewing these types
of things, but they don't look appropriate for this particular
fitting. Next, the cartridge end seems to be 'turnable' only through
some holes in its end into which I suspect some exotic (and to doubt
expensive) tool should be inserted.
So what's my best approach?. Can I get the appropriate tools or are
they simply not available anymore?.

Tools for the some of the most common old and new BBs are available from
http://www.mikedyason.com/

~PB

Dave wrote on 06/05/2007 16:25 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Being an engineer by trade I have bravely decided to fix these
problems. First, I took the headset to bits. The top headset bearing
looked OK but the bottom one fell to pieces with ball bearings flying
around. It was also very rusty and clearly no oil or grease had passed
that way for some time. Clearly this bearing is knackered, but where
can I get a replacement?. The young herbert from halfords suggested
that I should replace the headset which I thought was completely
unnecessary when a replacement bearing would do the job. So my first
questions is, how do I go about getting a replacement for this bearing
and is it likely to be Kona-specific or am I likely to be able to get
this from another supplier?.

When you say the bearings are knackered do you mean just the ball
bearings or have the bearing surfaces gone too. If the former you just
need to clean it up and put some new ball bearings in. Otherwise you
need a new headset. They are standard and come in a number of sizes 1",
1 1/8th and 1 1/4 and two types, threaded and aheadset. Have a look at
http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ha-i.html#headset to sort out which yours is.

You will also have the challenge of removing the old one and fitting it
which can be done with threaded rods, washers, blocks of wood and a
hammer but you might find it easier to get a headset from your local
bike shop (N.B. That is not Halfords) and ask them to fit it. Its a few
minutes with the right tools.

Quoted message said:

The next problem (the bottom bracket) seems to require a number of
specific tools to 'crack' it open. Firstly, I used a crack remover to
get that out of the way. Next I am faced with a chrome ring 6 notches
around the edge. See picture:

http://www.moorenet.co.uk/IMG_0875.JPG

The file size of that link is 0k, I think something went wrong with your
uploading.

FWIW you will need a tool and the right sized spanner to get the old one
out and hopefully its the same tool for fitting the new one. Just get a
standard Shimano UN54 cartridge bottom bracket to replace it. They are
not expensive (~£5) and if you are unsure, buy it from the LBS and ask
them to fit it for you. If you want to DIY the tools are not expensive.
The main issue will be getting the right axle length to get the right
chainline. If you use your LBS they should be able to help you select
the right one.

Good luck

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

Pete Biggs said:

Dave said:

Hi All,
I've got aKonaLava Dome MTB which is now about 10 years old. I'm
using it more frequently these days, but it's showing its age.
Firstly, I had suspected that the headset bearings were going when the
steering became 'crunchy'. Secondly, there is considerable slack in
thebottombracketto the point that on half the cycle, the chain
rubbed against the derailer.

Quoted message said:

Being an engineer by trade I have bravely decided to fix these
problems. First, I took the headset to bits. The top headset bearing
looked OK but thebottomone fell to pieces with ball bearings flying
around. It was also very rusty and clearly no oil or grease had passed
that way for some time. Clearly this bearing is knackered, but where
can I get a replacement?. The young herbert from halfords suggested
that I should replace the headset which I thought was completely
unnecessary when a replacement bearing would do the job.

I'm assuming it's the traditional type of headset (since cartridge bearings
don't send balls flying around). Please ignore the following if I'm wrong
about that.

What is "the bearing"? Caged set of balls?

Yes, there's a cage of 16 1/4inch ball bearings. The bearings have
broken loose from the cage. The cage looks pretty bent up and both the
cage and balls are very rusty. Obviously I can get some 1/4inch balls,
but replacing the cage might be more of a problem (although I could
try to reuse this one). A few things I've read suggest that I could
just put the balls back without the cage?. Is this sensible?.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.moorenet.co.uk/IMG_0875.JPG

Link doesn't work for me.

Ok, it's fixed now. Please try again - Ta.

Ta,
Dave

Dave said:

Quoted message said:

What is "the bearing"? Caged set of balls?

Yes, there's a cage of 16 1/4inch ball bearings. The bearings have
broken loose from the cage. The cage looks pretty bent up and both the
cage and balls are very rusty. Obviously I can get some 1/4inch balls,
but replacing the cage might be more of a problem (although I could
try to reuse this one). A few things I've read suggest that I could
just put the balls back without the cage?. Is this sensible?.

Cages are purely to make it easier and quicker to fit the balls. They do
nothing once fitted. In fact loose balls are better because there is room
for more of them - so load is spread more evenly. Packing with a load of
grease will hold the balls in place during assembly.

Inspect the races in the headset for dimples or pits. You can sometimes get
away with them in poor condition for a while when when freshly re-greased,
especially if some play is left in - but they will cause annoyance sooner or
later.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.moorenet.co.uk/IMG_0875.JPG

Yeah that's an old fashioned one. The "Bottom Bracket Wrench & Lock Ring
Tool" from www.mikedyason.com should do, though you could first try
loosening the silver lockring with a hammer & screwdriver.

I would replace the BB with a Shimano UN52/53/72/73.

~PB

ps. Don't reuse cages that are in poor condition. Bits of metal could snap
off and grind up your bearings.

~PB

Dave wrote on 06/05/2007 17:33 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Yes, there's a cage of 16 1/4inch ball bearings. The bearings have
broken loose from the cage. The cage looks pretty bent up and both the
cage and balls are very rusty. Obviously I can get some 1/4inch balls,
but replacing the cage might be more of a problem (although I could
try to reuse this one). A few things I've read suggest that I could
just put the balls back without the cage?. Is this sensible?.

Just go for ordinary 1/4" ball bearings. Its more fiddly than fitting a
caged set but just as good. Or you will find most bike shops carry
packs of caged ball bearings.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.moorenet.co.uk/IMG_0875.JPG

Link doesn't work for me.

I wouldn't bother with a tool. Just chase it off with a screwdriver and
hammer but make sure you go the right way. Bottom brackets have
opposite threads on one side (says he desperately trying to remember
which but I think it is the one you are looking at so chase it off
clockwise - if I'm wrong someone will be along soon to point it out ;-))

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

in message <[email hidden]>, Dave

(') said:

Pete Biggs said:

Dave said:

Hi All,
I've got aKonaLava Dome MTB which is now about 10 years old. I'm
using it more frequently these days, but it's showing its age.
Firstly, I had suspected that the headset bearings were going when the
steering became 'crunchy'. Secondly, there is considerable slack in
thebottombracketto the point that on half the cycle, the chain
rubbed against the derailer.

Quoted message said:

Being an engineer by trade I have bravely decided to fix these
problems. First, I took the headset to bits. The top headset bearing
looked OK but thebottomone fell to pieces with ball bearings flying
around. It was also very rusty and clearly no oil or grease had passed
that way for some time. Clearly this bearing is knackered, but where
can I get a replacement?. The young herbert from halfords suggested
that I should replace the headset which I thought was completely
unnecessary when a replacement bearing would do the job.

I'm assuming it's the traditional type of headset (since cartridge
bearings
don't send balls flying around). Please ignore the following if I'm
wrong about that.

What is "the bearing"? Caged set of balls?

Yes, there's a cage of 16 1/4inch ball bearings. The bearings have
broken loose from the cage. The cage looks pretty bent up and both the
cage and balls are very rusty. Obviously I can get some 1/4inch balls,
but replacing the cage might be more of a problem (although I could
try to reuse this one). A few things I've read suggest that I could
just put the balls back without the cage?. Is this sensible?.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.moorenet.co.uk/IMG_0875.JPG

Link doesn't work for me.

Ok, it's fixed now. Please try again - Ta.

Lock ring comes (used to be chrome, notches in the edge) off with a C
spanner, bearing cup (steel pin holes in it) comes out with a pin spanner.
Simple, cheap tools - only problem is that pin spanner is on the obsolete
side now and may be hard to source. Pin spanners came in a number of
spacings but not too many.

It looks like a pre-cartridge type bottom bracket - that is, there is a
separate cup each side, with the cone races turned into the bottom bracket
spindle. This can in principle be services just by replacing the balls
(and grease), provided the races aren't pitted. However, a cartridge type
will be compatible and will cost very little.

The problem with the old type was that and damp or condensation which gets
into the frame runs down and pools in the bottom bracket, turning the
grease into gungy emulsion and then the balls rust - don't be surprised if
you can't find some of the balls, they've rusted and then collapsed into
powder.

Beware that, if ISO or English standard (overwhelmingly most common), the
right hand cup has a left-hand thread.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Morning had broken, and I found when I looked that we had run out
of copper roove nails.

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> a écrit:

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't bother with a tool. Just chase it off with a screwdriver
and hammer but make sure you go the right way. Bottom brackets
have opposite threads on one side (says he desperately trying to
remember which but I think it is the one you are looking at so chase
it off clockwise - if I'm wrong someone will be along soon to point
it out ;-))

You're wrong.

James Thomson

James Thomson said:

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> a écrit:

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't bother with a tool. Just chase it off with a screwdriver
and hammer but make sure you go the right way. Bottom brackets
have opposite threads on one side (says he desperately trying to
remember which but I think it is the one you are looking at so chase
it off clockwise - if I'm wrong someone will be along soon to point
it out ;-))

You're wrong.

James Thomson

exactly, you shouldn't treat a screwdriver like that 😉

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

James Thomson wrote on 07/05/2007 09:47 +0100:

Quoted message said:

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> a écrit:

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't bother with a tool. Just chase it off with a screwdriver
and hammer but make sure you go the right way. Bottom brackets
have opposite threads on one side (says he desperately trying to
remember which but I think it is the one you are looking at so chase
it off clockwise - if I'm wrong someone will be along soon to point
it out ;-))

You're wrong.

James Thomson

Thanks.

--
Tony

"I have made mistakes but I have never made the mistake of claiming that
I have never made one."
- James Gordon Bennett

M-gineering wrote on 07/05/2007 09:51 +0100:

Quoted message said:

exactly, you shouldn't treat a screwdriver like that 😉

You are hereby summarily expelled from the Cult of Bodge.

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

Tony Raven said:

M-gineering wrote on 07/05/2007 09:51 +0100:

Quoted message said:

exactly, you shouldn't treat a screwdriver like that 😉

You are hereby summarily expelled from the Cult of Bodge.

Great! Do I get a T-shirt?

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

M-gineering wrote on 07/05/2007 12:46 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Tony Raven said:

M-gineering wrote on 07/05/2007 09:51 +0100:

Quoted message said:

exactly, you shouldn't treat a screwdriver like that 😉

You are hereby summarily expelled from the Cult of Bodge.

Great! Do I get a T-shirt?

As soon as the Committee for Cult of Bodge Expellees (T-shirt Working
Party) has finished drawing up the detailed specification and translated
it into the 23 official languages of the European Union before starting
the vendor assessment programme (criteria in development)and advertising
the supply contract in the European Journal ;-)

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

In article <[email hidden]>, Dave
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Hi All,
I've got a Kona Lava Dome MTB which is now about 10 years old. I'm
using it more frequently these days, but it's showing its age.
Firstly, I had suspected that the headset bearings were going when the
steering became 'crunchy'. Secondly, there is considerable slack in
the bottom bracket to the point that on half the cycle, the chain
rubbed against the derailer.

Being an engineer by trade I have bravely decided to fix these
problems. First, I took the headset to bits. The top headset bearing
looked OK but the bottom one fell to pieces with ball bearings flying
around. It was also very rusty and clearly no oil or grease had passed
that way for some time. Clearly this bearing is knackered, but where
can I get a replacement?. The young herbert from halfords suggested
that I should replace the headset which I thought was completely
unnecessary when a replacement bearing would do the job. So my first
questions is, how do I go about getting a replacement for this bearing
and is it likely to be Kona-specific or am I likely to be able to get
this from another supplier?.

Just use loose balls - probably 3/16" or 5/32", I'd be surprised if
they're 1/4". Grease the cup in the bottom of the head tube and stick
balls in place until there's no more room. If in doubt, leave one out.
Wipe a bit more grease over the balls and reassemble. When adjusting,
wind the threaded race dow

Quoted message said:

The next problem (the bottom bracket) seems to require a number of
specific tools to 'crack' it open. Firstly, I used a crack remover to
get that out of the way. Next I am faced with a chrome ring 6 notches
around the edge. See picture:

http://www.moorenet.co.uk/IMG_0875.JPG

Now, I've seen a number of tools on the web for unscrewing these types
of things, but they don't look appropriate for this particular
fitting.

Decent slip-joint pliers (water pump pliers) should be fine for this, or
a small cold-chisel and hammer will usually tap it around.

Quoted message said:

Next, the cartridge end seems to be 'turnable' only through
some holes in its end into which I suspect some exotic (and to doubt
expensive) tool should be inserted.

Looking at it I doubt it's a cartridge bearing, more likely regular CCB
(cup/cone/balls). Once the lockring is off you may be able to grip the
exposed threads (pliers again) to unscrew it, or punch it around with a
hammer and chisel. In extreme cases where a cup was seized in place
I've removed it by welding on a bar or large nut and using that to undo
it - the heat helps too.
When you come to remove the cup on the other side be sure to remember
that it's threaded left-handed.

Quoted message said:

So what's my best approach?. Can I get the appropriate tools or are
they simply not available anymore?.

They are available, but not worth buying because you'll probably never
use them again - modern cartridge bearings use a different system, and
the tool for those costs under a tenner.