Kofi Annan vs ... Mr "David Wright"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(David Wright) said:

Inasmuch as HIV is not sentient, I dislike the
cheapening of the term "genocide" in this context.

Thank heavens the UN does not have some puffed up, pompous,
arrogant, blind, deaf, dont'wanna-know, self rightious,
middle class KNOW NOTHING to lead it.

Toby, why do you take such strong exception to what David
said? I don't think that he was trying to diminish or play
down the great human tragedy with HIV.

I think, perhaps, your differences are mostly semantic. Of
course, David can speak for himself, but I thought I'd put
my .02 cents worth in.

(Uniquely Ilsa9.00a1) said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (David Wright) wrote:
>
> Inasmuch as HIV is not sentient, I dislike the
> cheapening of the term "genocide" in this context.

Thank heavens the UN does not have some puffed up,
pompous, arrogant, blind, deaf, dont'wanna-know, self
rightious, middle class KNOW NOTHING to lead it.

Toby, why do you take such strong exception to what David
said? I don't think that he was trying to diminish or play
down the great human tragedy with HIV.

I disagree. The post was totally geared to do exactly that.
And so, is loathsome.

--
"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is
prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow
and multiply." R. Serling

Toby Joe said:

(Uniquely Ilsa9.00a1) said:

Quoted message said:

> [email hidden] (David Wright) wrote:
> >
> > Inasmuch as HIV is not sentient, I dislike the
> > cheapening of the term "genocide" in this context.
>

Thank heavens the UN does not have some puffed up,
pompous, arrogant, blind, deaf, dont'wanna-know, self
rightious, middle class KNOW NOTHING to lead it.

Toby, why do you take such strong exception to what
David said? I don't think that he was trying to diminish
or play down the great human tragedy with HIV.

I disagree. The post was totally geared to do exactly
that. And so, is loathsome.

Ilsa, consider this:

When the Holocaust was underway in Germany, do you think
that the intelligencia within the country saw it, recognised
it, and thought, "Yes! We are allowing this heinous act. We
are allowing our neighbours to disappear, and we know they
are dying, and we accept that we are a part of this evil."

Or do you think they found ways of rationalising it to
themselves, for example by saying or thinking, "Well, they
are ... over there somewhere, another suburb, another town.
And they must have done something to bring this on
themselves. It is not our responsibility"

You think they would have used the word "genocide" to
describe what was happening around them? Or might they not
have found more "suitable" or acceptable language,
acceptable to their own conscience as they turned aside and
continued with their daily lives.

--
"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is
prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow
and multiply." R. Serling

Toby Joe said:

Thank heavens the UN does not have some puffed up, pompous,
arrogant, blind, deaf, dont'wanna-know, self rightious,
middle class KNOW NOTHING to lead it.

Yeah, Kofi Annan is not middle class, and is about to have
his hiney handed to him on a Ag platter for violating the
'oil-for-food' UN/Iraqi plan.

As are the French, the Germans, and a host of other co-
conspirators.

This shoud prove interesting..

--

W_B

Take out the G'RBAGE for private e-mail
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Yeah, Kofi Annan is not middle class, and is about to have
his hiney handed to him on a Ag platter for violating the
'oil-for-food' UN/Iraqi plan.

As are the French, the Germans, and a host of other co-
conspirators.

This shoud prove interesting..

America, your ambassadors here on the 'Net are doing a fine
diplomatic job. [even in sarcastic mode, it is difficult to
write those words]

--
"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is
prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow
and multiply." R. Serling

Toby Joe said:

Quoted message said:

Yeah, Kofi Annan is not middle class, and is about to
have his hiney handed to him on a Ag platter for
violating the 'oil-for-food' UN/Iraqi plan.

As are the French, the Germans, and a host of other co-
conspirators.

This shoud prove interesting..

America, your ambassadors here on the 'Net are doing a fine
diplomatic job. [even in sarcastic mode, it is difficult to
write those words]

Whassamattayou?

Have you forgotten the attack of September 11 ?

TJ, even your country is deeply involved in the war against
international terrorism.

You know in your heart that there is only one solution,
distasteful as it may be, why do you resist the only
workable solution?

This is not the forum for this discussion and I will not
expound here. You may contact me privately to discuss
this matter.

Cheers,

--

W_B

Take out the G'RBAGE for private e-mail
[email hidden]

In article <[email hidden]>,

Toby Joe said:

(Uniquely Ilsa9.00a1) said:

Quoted message said:

> [email hidden] (David Wright) wrote:
> >
> > Inasmuch as HIV is not sentient, I dislike the
> > cheapening of the term "genocide" in this context.
>

Thank heavens the UN does not have some puffed up,
pompous, arrogant, blind, deaf, dont'wanna-know, self
rightious, middle class KNOW NOTHING to lead it.

Toby, why do you take such strong exception to what David
said? I don't think that he was trying to diminish or
play down the great human tragedy with HIV.

I disagree. The post was totally geared to do exactly that.
And so, is loathsome.

It was geared to do nothing of the sort. If that's what you
saw in it, the problem is within you, not me.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were
standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

Quoted message said:

Toby Joe wrote:>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Whassamattayou?

Seems like every time the subject of HIV/AIDS in Africa
turns up, there is a rush to squelch open discussion, or to
at least dismiss it as being of any real consequence. (Not
saying it's how it is, but how it seems, and _that_ is why
my reaction.)

Quoted message said:

Have you forgotten the attack of September 11 ?

What on earth does that have to do with it?

Quoted message said:

TJ, even your country is deeply involved in the war
against international terrorism.

Just one question: is HIV/AIDS mixed into all that somehow?

--
"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is
prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow
and multiply." R. Serling

Toby Joe said:

Quoted message said:

Toby Joe wrote:>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>

Excuse me if I misunderstood the basic question.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Whassamattayou?

Seems like every time the subject of HIV/AIDS in Africa
turns up, there is a rush to squelch open discussion, or to
at least dismiss it as being of any real consequence. (Not
saying it's how it is, but how it seems, and _that_ is why
my reaction.)

I thought that we were talking about terrorism.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Have you forgotten the attack of September 11 ?

What on earth does that have to do with it?

Perhaps it is my mistake.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

TJ, even your country is deeply involved in the war
against international terrorism.

Just one question: is HIV/AIDS mixed into all that somehow?

Do you wish to discuss "HIV/AIDS" in relation to global
economics or as an 'infectious disease' ? Or are there other
socio-economic rammifications that you wish to explore ?
Global implications are not relevant if you refuse to define
a continental subdivision, and interactive population.

Just for your edification, according to the world health
orginazation as of 2001 (or there about) HIV/AIDS was 13th
on the list of most common causes of death according to world-
wide statistics.

I leave it to you to look up the top ten.

Let's have a good conversation TJ and ignore those who wish
to stifle the true exchange of information.

--

W_B

Take out the G'RBAGE for private e-mail
[email hidden]

(David Wright) said:

Toby Joe said:

(Uniquely Ilsa9.00a1) said:

Toby, why do you take such strong exception to what
David said? I don't think that he was trying to
diminish or play down the great human tragedy with HIV.

I disagree. The post was totally geared to do exactly
that. And so, is loathsome.

It was geared to do nothing of the sort. If that's what
you saw in it, the problem is within you, not me.

Note the difference in the two responses:

Ilsa had asked "Why do you think that?" - a humane and sane
response, for which I'm thankful.

The other reply simply denies any possibility (of anything),
and suggests that if someone questions their post then that
person must have "a problem".

(Oddly, I have met that kind of response before, though in
discussions with a quite different poster. - What have they
done with the original DW?)

Quoted message said:

On 21 Mar 2004 03:38:34 GMT, Toby Joe

Just for your edification, according to the world health
orginazation as of 2001 (or there about) HIV/AIDS was 13th
on the list of most common causes of death according to
world-wide statistics.

Consider this, just for a moment, WB: Imagine if Germany had
won WW II; if the Holocaust had continued and then fallen
into the history books.

Then one day little jonjon raises a question in class: "I
heard that a lot of people died back then, - all together.
They called them the Jews."

The teacher replies, "Don't you go worrying about it jonboy.
What happened then concerned on 13% of the population!" Or
whatever percent..

It may be 13th down on "the list", but for those countries
where every third person has HIV, it is rather more of an
issue than a number on a list. But who cares? They're a long
way off, - far away and insignificant, Who knows, are they
even human beings? It is not as if it were a "real"
holocaust, - I mean, one in three - HEck!! two out of three
of them ain't even infected yet!!!

C'mon!!! This is WAAAYYY toooo soon to start thinking about
it.

(What religion did you say they are? Many Christian? But
they're black ones, aren't they. Probably promiscuous. Got
what they deserve...)

--
"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is
prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow
and multiply." R. Serling

In article <[email hidden]>,

Toby Joe said:

(David Wright) said:

Toby Joe said:

[email hidden] (Uniquely Ilsa9.00a1) wrote:
> Toby, why do you take such strong exception to what
> David said? I don't think that he was trying to
> diminish or play down the great human tragedy with
> HIV.

I disagree. The post was totally geared to do exactly
that. And so, is loathsome.

It was geared to do nothing of the sort. If that's what
you saw in it, the problem is within you, not me.

Note the difference in the two responses:

Ilsa had asked "Why do you think that?" - a humane and sane
response, for which I'm thankful.

For which you also apparently have no answer.

Quoted message said:

The other reply simply denies any possibility (of
anything), and suggests that if someone questions their
post then that person must have "a problem".

Remember, admitting you have a problem is the first step
towards finding a solution. You're welcome.

Quoted message said:

(Oddly, I have met that kind of response before, though in
discussions with a quite different poster. - What have they
done with the original DW?)

Beg pardon?

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were
standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

"Toby Joe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On 21 Mar 2004 03:38:34 GMT, Toby Joe

Just for your edification, according to the world health
orginazation as of 2001 (or there about) HIV/AIDS was
13th on the list of most common causes of death
according to world-wide statistics.

Consider this, just for a moment, WB: Imagine if Germany
had won WW II; if the Holocaust had continued and

then

Quoted message said:

fallen into the history books.

Then one day little jonjon raises a question in class: "I
heard that a lot of people died back then, - all together.
They called them the Jews."

The teacher replies, "Don't you go worrying about it
jonboy. What happened then concerned on 13% of the
population!" Or whatever percent..

It may be 13th down on "the list", but for those countries
where every third person has HIV, it is rather more of an
issue than a number on a list. But who cares? They're a
long way off, - far away and insignificant, Who knows, are
they even human beings? It is not as if it were a "real"
holocaust, - I mean, one in three - HEck!! two out of
three of them ain't even infected yet!!!

C'mon!!! This is WAAAYYY toooo soon to start thinking
about it.

(What religion did you say they are? Many Christian? But
they're black ones, aren't they. Probably promiscuous. Got
what they deserve...)

Toby, I'm confused by your posts. You are comparing the
HIV/AIDS epidemic in Africa with the Holocaust and calling
it "genocide." Does this mean that you believe that AIDS in
Africa is caused by human agency with evil intent? If so,
please specify who you believe is responsible for this crime
and the means you believe they used to commit it.

There are campaigns of genocide ongoing in Africa, warfare
stemming from tribal rivalries of hundreds of years. But
AIDS is pandemic, no respecter of race, politics, or tribal
ancestry. If AIDS is a genocidal weapon, it is a pretty
clumsy one, akin to using a thermonuclear bomb to remove a
crack house.

--Rich

Toby Joe said:

From: "Uniquely Ilsa9.00a1" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Still, the issue David raises is over the use of the
word "genocide" which implies concious intent.

If there had been no maniaical sociopath but rather, say,
random groups of people causing the disappearances, and then
a gradual tolerance of the disappearances due to spreading
beliefs that "They sort of deserve it", "They are to blame",
"There's nothing we can do about it", and even, "It is not
happening, or not to that extent", ...until the majority of
the population silently allowed it and the 6 mill were gone,
I would still call that genocide.

--
"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is
prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow
and multiply." R. Serling

Quoted message said:

From: "Uniquely Ilsa9.00a1" <[email hidden]>
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 6:50 AM
Subject: Re: Kofi Annan vs ... Mr "David Wright"

Quoted message said:

HIV is a naturally occuring virus, most likely indigenous
to Africa.

No, what happened is not "natural". "Exactly how SIVcpz was
transmitted to humans to re-emerge as HIV is not known."
news.bbc.co.uk2985596.stmOpen ↗

What is happening with transgenic diseases is something
else again.

--
"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is
prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow
and multiply." R. Serling

"MHA Needs More Skeptics" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

HIV is an extremely equal opportunity killer.

Yep, sure is. Kills everyone equally. Except a few
older people who survived many famines, and a large
number of orphans.

Quoted message said:

It is, however, not a premediated killer.

"Exactly how SIVcpz was transmitted to humans to re-emerge
as HIV is not known."
news.bbc.co.uk2985596.stmOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Ascribing to it a motive

Nope, motives are in people, not in diseases.

Quoted message said:

to eliminate a specific group of people within the world
population doesn't seem accurate.

And such would be the response when kleine Herr jonjon tried
to question his teacher about the great fuerher's possible
role in some legendary "ovens" and "chambers". (Long after
they'd won the war.)

"Nein, Nein, Nein, mein freund!!! ...Est ist nich zehr gut
... to think like that..."

And if it began to be seriously condemned, without knowing
who had been the instigator, there might well be heard,

Quoted message said:

That, in no way, attempts to diminish the horrors...

[and no, I am not say that "is what has happened". Just
that, as I've begun to look into it, more questions arise
than do answers, and where answers seem to have been
provided, they don't add up.]

--
"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is
prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow
and multiply." R. Serling

From: "MHA Needs More Skeptics" <[email hidden]>
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: Kofi Annan vs ... Mr "David Wright"

Quoted message said:

Sure, what is happening there is a terrible tragedy, but
is it qualitatively worse that they die from HIV as
opposed to famine, earthquake, drowning, snake-bite, etc?

AIDS Orphans Numbers by region:

www.unicef.org/sowc02/g31.htm

www.unicef.org/sowc02/g32.htm

--
"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is
prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow
and multiply." R. Serling

In article <[email hidden]>,

Toby Joe said:

From: "Uniquely Ilsa9.00a1" <[email hidden]> Sent:
Monday, March 22, 2004 6:50 AM Subject: Re: Kofi Annan vs
... Mr "David Wright"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Toby Joe <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > Toby, why do you take such strong exception to what
> > David said? I don't think that he was trying to
> > diminish or play down the great human tragedy with
> > HIV.
>
> I disagree. The post was totally geared to do exactly
> that. And so, is loathsome.

Ilsa, consider this:

When the Holocaust was underway in Germany, do you think
that the intelligencia within the country saw it,
recognised it, and thought, "Yes! We are allowing this
heinous act. We are allowing our neighbours to
disappear, and we know they are dying, and we accept
that we are a part of this evil."

I think only a small percentages of Americans knew
anything of the full extent of what was going on.

And how much do we know of the situation in Africa? What an
easy excuse that will be: "But we didn't know." Wilful
ignorance, and an intention to ensure it stays that way as
long as possibly can be.

Quoted message said:

Still, the issue David raises is over the use of the word
"genocide" which implies concious intent.

I think there was conscious intent in raising a question
over the use of the word. The same conscious intent that is
seen in many other attempts,

Well, who gives a rat's ass what you think? If you think.

I could just as easily say that I think you're deliberately
cheapening the use of the word "genocide" when you use it to
describe the results of a disease. I think you're trying to
downplay the horrors of what the Nazis did, of what has
happened in Rwanda and elsewhere.

There, Toby. How do YOU like it?

Quoted message said:

If someone feels they have a real problem with the word
usage then they should take it up with Kofi Annan. However
I note that the diversion into semantics has, once again,
successfully derailed a discussion of a "difficult" topic.

Since when is HIV an alternative health topic in the
first place? Unless you have an alternative-health
treatment for it.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were
standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

In article <[email hidden]>,

Toby Joe said:

Toby Joe said:

From: "Uniquely Ilsa9.00a1" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Still, the issue David raises is over the use of the
word "genocide" which implies concious intent.

If there had been no maniaical sociopath but rather, say,
random groups of people causing the disappearances, and
then a gradual tolerance of the disappearances due to
spreading beliefs that "They sort of deserve it", "They are
to blame", "There's nothing we can do about it", and even,
"It is not happening, or not to that extent", ...until the
majority of the population silently allowed it and the 6
mill were gone, I would still call that genocide.

So would I. But whether or not it was organized by some
central authority or was just carried out by small random
groups, it was still deliberate. Viruses do not have
conscious intent.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were
standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)