Knee/tendon pain

John Midgley composed the following;:

Quoted message said:

I supinate (rolling around the outside edge of the foot) horribly when
I run and my feet naturally assume an outside-edge-lower position when
they dangle. They also dangle slightly pigeon-toed. Nice.

You paint a picture of a fine figure of sporting manhood .. 😉

Quoted message said:

I know the conventional wisdom would be a) See your doctor or b) See a
sports-physio-type-bod. a) would say rest and the rest; tried that,
trouble recurs as soon as I get up to any mileage. b) Tried that;
s-p-t-b pounced on ITBS as an explanation, despite the inconvenient
fact that I didn't actually match any of the symptoms. I'd cheerfully
pay someone who knew what they were talking about (in the Norwich
area[1]), as I'm getting a trifle fed up.

Other than that, any anecdotes/advice welcomed!

If it were me, I'd look at seat position, fore and aft, and angle of
inclination, to try and relieve possible pressure on the hips/pelvis
which 'might' be causing undue pressure/rotation on the legs, which
can't be felt initially but is cumulative and is eventually felt as pain
in a 'weaker' area.

Since my knees went (Cruciate Ligaments) I had to fairly radically alter
my seating position, though I ride Mountain Bikes, to get comfortable
enough to stay out a full day. In fact I also altered ny handlebar
position too, but I think that was a follow-on from the seat movement.
😉

Quoted message said:

[1] This is uk.re.cycling.norwich, isn't it?

It would appear so, some days. 😉

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!

"John Midgley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I know the conventional wisdom would be a) See your doctor or b) See a
sports-physio-type-bod. a) would say rest and the rest; tried that,
trouble recurs as soon as I get up to any mileage. b) Tried that;
s-p-t-b pounced on ITBS as an explanation, despite the inconvenient
fact that I didn't actually match any of the symptoms. I'd cheerfully
pay someone who knew what they were talking about (in the Norwich
area[1]), as I'm getting a trifle fed up.

There's a sports' physio in Dereham Vernon has used to good effect when he's
had problems with aches & pains cycling. Don't know what said person is like
with feet - do you want the contact details to give it a go?

Quoted message said:

Other than that, any anecdotes/advice welcomed!

Regards
John

[1] This is uk.re.cycling.norwich, isn't it?

Indeedy ;-)

Cheers, helen s

Try riding in old-style shoes and clips. Experiment with toeing in and
toeing out.

Then return to clipless in the position that produces least pain.

A podiatrist may be able to help you.

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
Edgware.

Helen Deborah Vecht said:

Try riding in old-style shoes and clips. Experiment with toeing in and
toeing out.

Then return to clipless in the position that produces least pain.

Toeclips make my knees worse - my knees are much better since I went
to clipless (ATAC) on every bike & trike, so be careful with all
suggestions.

regards, Ian SMith
--
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|o o|
|/ \|

"Ian Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Toeclips make my knees worse - my knees are much better since I went
to clipless (ATAC) on every bike & trike, so be careful with all
suggestions.

Ditto for me. My knees had daily pain when I used platform pedals, with or
without toe clips. Using clipless made a heck of a positive difference for
me. I have a pain in my right knee at the moment, but not due to cycling - I
accidentally walked my kneecap into the corner of a wall. *OWOWOWWW!*

Cheers, helen s

wafflycat said:

"Ian Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Toeclips make my knees worse - my knees are much better since I went
to clipless (ATAC) on every bike & trike, so be careful with all
suggestions.

Ditto for me. My knees had daily pain when I used platform pedals,
with or without toe clips. Using clipless made a heck of a positive
difference for me. I have a pain in my right knee at the moment, but
not due to cycling - I accidentally walked my kneecap into the corner
of a wall. *OWOWOWWW!*

Cheers, helen s

I am in agreement with Helen above.I would consider a podiatrist ( available
on NHS ) as your feet/gait don't sound too good and this may be contributing
to your pain whilst on the bike.I see one for Plantar Fasciitis and was told
I had one leg 8mm shorter than the other and that 95% of the population are
thus blessed.As one gets older this imbalance can cause quite a few problems
as you are constantly trying to compensate for it.

Sam Salt

"John Midgley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi

Quoted message said:

Other than that, any anecdotes/advice welcomed!

I've buggered my knees, haven't ridden for a few months, mainly due to a
25km each way commute. 25km was my ideal training ride but going up a few
big hills on the way home when I was tired seems to have been a bit too much
for them.

I gave up clips, changed to a bike with a good gear ratio, shortened the
ride but they just got worse.

A sports physio said I had overdeveloped (too tight) quads (the big ones
from the knee to the hip) and this pulled the knee (and hip) joint out of
alignment.

Supposedly rest and stretching will fix it. I have given up riding for a few
months and hope in a few more months I will be able to start again.

wafflycat said:

Ditto for me. My knees had daily pain when I used platform pedals, with
or without toe clips. Using clipless made a heck of a positive
difference for me. I have a pain in my right knee at the moment, but not
due to cycling - I accidentally walked my kneecap into the corner of a
wall. *OWOWOWWW!*

That is one of the problems of losing weight. The soft bits don't hit
first any more..

...d

This sounds very similar to something that came on suddenly during a
300km 2 years ago (early start, lots of hills, cold as well). It would
then come on after about 50km on every ride (on one side only)
It got worse and worse and I was forced to use pain killers and
ibuprofen gel to complete the season; after which it went away. First
thing I did was ride a lower gear. I then changed my Look cleats to red
ones which enabled my feet to find a more comfortable (and as it
happens more crooked) position.
The medical explanation I was given (by another rider I hasten to add)
was that it is a tendon which AFAIK connects a muscle in your posterior
to one in your lower leg; no use whatever for cycling but because it is
not exercised the muscles do not stretch, causing the tendon to do so
instead and inflame the joint.
It just went away; I now pray on every ride that it will not come back.

Frank X <[email hidden]> whizzed past me shouting

Quoted message said:

A sports physio said I had overdeveloped (too tight) quads (the big ones
from the knee to the hip) and this pulled the knee (and hip) joint out of
alignment.

The OP can easily check for that: first kneel down, then sit back.
If your knees won't bend far enough to rest your bum on your heels, your
quads have shortened.
(Gray's Anatomy says the only restriction on knee flexion is when the
lower leg presses on the thigh - that's how it should be.)

--
Sue ]🙁🙂

(Gray's Anatomy says the only restriction on knee flexion is when the
lower leg presses on the thigh - that's how it should be.)

interesting; if you move your calves to the side and repeat this you
can feel your knee joints twinge a bit. Thanks.

This sounds very similar to something that came on suddenly during a
300km 2 years ago (early start, lots of hills, cold as well). It would
then come on after about 50km on every ride (on one side only)
It got worse and worse and I was forced to use pain killers and
ibuprofen gel to complete the season (1); after which it went away.
First
thing I did was ride a lower gear. I then changed my Look cleats to red

ones which enabled my feet to find a more comfortable (and as it
happens more crooked) position.
The medical explanation I was given (by another rider I hasten to add)
was that it is a tendon which AFAIK connects a muscle in your posterior

to one in your lower leg; no use whatever for cycling but because it is

not exercised the muscles do not stretch, causing the tendon to do so
instead and inflame the joint.
It just went away; I now pray on every ride that it will not come back.

(1) I have been criticised for my decision on this rather than resting,
but I wanted to complete an SR; and also the pain went away completely
after cycling and it seemed to not be getting any worse from use of the
joint; YMMV.

(John Midgley) said:

I have a very specific knee pain that I'm running into as I increase
my mileage - I have a little matter of 100 miles to ride in June. The
pain occurs where the tendon from the bottom of the biceps femoris
attaches to the top of the fibula. If you're sitting, it's where the
twangy tendon on the outside/back of the knee attaches to the nubbin
of bone just below the knee. It actually feels like the bone itself is
sore, rather than the tendon. It doesn't match any of the descriptions
I've seen of ITBS. It appears the morning after exercise and goes away
with a couple of days of rest, but reappears promptly when I start
again. Both knees are affected equally.

It can still be the ITB even if it isn't ITBS. Mine tends to tighten up
(especially when running more) but I never developed classic symptoms,
instead the attachment on both ends starts to hurt.
What helped was:
- sports massage
- self massage: take a rolling pin [1] and roll slowly along the side of
your leg from knee to hip. Roll, not slide, it is about pressure deeper
down rather than the skin.
- stretches, esp. the one where you sit, cross one leg over the other with
the knee up, and then rotate your body the other way.

The idea is that the pain is where it attaches but the problem is not
actually there, that's just where it pulls too hard and it happens to be
the weakest spot.

In my case, the podiosomething said that the biomechanics of my left leg
are "interesting", and part of that is that the toes tend to point
inwards.

Roos

Sue White <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

The OP can easily check for that [tight quads]: first kneel down, then sit back.
If your knees won't bend far enough to rest your bum on your heels, your
quads have shortened.
(Gray's Anatomy says the only restriction on knee flexion is when the
lower leg presses on the thigh - that's how it should be.)

I have two small children, so I spend a lot of time in that postition!
I'm also gradually stretching the backs of my legs - I can't *quite*
put the palms of my hands on the floor (with locked out knees) but it
won't be very long. It's oddly difficult to find a position that
noticeably stretches the biceps femoris, rather than the others, whose
names escape me.

John

"MartinM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

The medical explanation I was given (by another rider I hasten to add)
was that it is a tendon which AFAIK connects a muscle in your posterior

to one in your lower leg; no use whatever for cycling but because it is

not exercised the muscles do not stretch, causing the tendon to do so
instead and inflame the joint.

Now *that's* what I call a provenance - some geezer on the Internet
reporting what some other geezer told him! It would explain why it
doesn't actually hurt very much on the ride, only later. I also only
get the problem cycling, never running. I get a wide range of other
ailments running; just not this one.

Regards
John

"wafflycat" <wafflesATv21netDOTcoDOTuk> wrote

Quoted message said:

There's a sports' physio in Dereham Vernon has used to good effect when he's
had problems with aches & pains cycling. Don't know what said person is like
with feet - do you want the contact details to give it a go?

Breaking news! I have an appointment with an NHS biomechanics
department. They may recommend that the legs come off - perhaps just
the bit below the knee.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll bear it in mind in case the 'official'
route doesn't work.

John

John Midgley said:

"MartinM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The medical explanation I was given (by another rider I hasten to

add)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was that it is a tendon which AFAIK connects a muscle in your

posterior

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to one in your lower leg; no use whatever for cycling but because

it is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not exercised the muscles do not stretch, causing the tendon to do

so

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

instead and inflame the joint.

Now *that's* what I call a provenance - some geezer on the Internet
reporting what some other geezer told him! It would explain why it
doesn't actually hurt very much on the ride, only later. I also only
get the problem cycling, never running. I get a wide range of other
ailments running; just not this one.

It was another rider I was doing a 600 with that told me, in between
doing some weird leaning exercise against a brick wall at each control.
Hmm, may not be the same thing, mine only hurt whilst riding and never
after. Good luck with the hospital, just hope the bionic lower legs
settle in OK ;-)

On 29 Mar 2005 05:45:52 -0800, [email hidden] (John Midgley)

wrote in message : said:

I have a very specific knee pain that I'm running into as I increase
my mileage - I have a little matter of 100 miles to ride in June. The
pain occurs where the tendon from the bottom of the biceps femoris
attaches to the top of the fibula.

Well, I'm sure it can be tuned out with bike fit, but I have to say
that I usually get this from sitting badly at work - if I sit well the
cycling has no adverse effect on my joints at all.

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken