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knee pain, a GP replies.

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
2 April 2004
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5 April 2004
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John Taverner
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  1. The knee pain thread shows that many of us suffer from
    knee pain.

    As an ex GP with F***ed knees ( note medical terminology)
    may I offer my two pence worth. IMHO Rant mode on

    Lets go back to first principles. The knee is inherently
    unstable, unlike the hip. Stability is maintained by the
    cruciates, but it is muscle strength, which is important,
    your quads and especially vastus medialis, that's the inside
    one. Our gait determines the muscle pull through the knee,
    overinturning or out turning. I suffer from severe over
    pronation as do two of my kids. I f only I had realised when
    I was younger, that my queer gait was affecting forces on my
    knee I would be not so F***ed now. When you are young, <35,
    you can get away with it.

    Walkers, mountaineers, skiers and snowboarders, do put
    INTERMITTENT stresses on their knees. Its this occasional
    use that is the problem. ( No rude comments from the
    superfit)." Lets go up to Ogwen for the w/e and have a
    blast," yes we all do or did it, great day on the hill, knee
    twinges a bit. Next morning, quads a bit tight, knee fine.
    Another great day, more than a twinge on the way down. Drive
    home, get out of car, twinge becomes pain. Back to work, we
    do not notice our gait has changed ever so slightly to
    minimise discomfort, this leads to slight quad power loss
    and wasting. Pain goes, till the next downhill blast.

    And so on and on, the vicious circle starts. Our knee pain
    may not be not from an injury, its from misuse, and our
    response to it. We all like to think of ourselves as serious
    hill persons, we pride ourselves in our feats and baggings.
    We are strong, we will finish this circuit, I, ve driven
    from London for this w/e. Till our knees complain and we do
    not listen, and push onwards. Knee abuse is rampant.

    So what is the answer. This is a personal view and may not
    be the considered view of the profession.

    I f your GP is a climber/skier/mountaineer, your half way
    there. We are terribly busy, and many have the attitude,
    that its self-inflicted, so stop doing whats causes the
    pain.......leading to worsening of the gait etc etc. History
    will often point to the diagnosis, and self help and
    exercise advice may do the trick. But often does not. Sports
    physios are the next step, biometric assessment of muscle
    power. Advice re exercises.

    GAIT, see a podiatrist, get a gait video, you may be
    horrified at what you see...( I was), think about ortotic
    inserts. (I wear mine every day, just swap them about).
    Orthopod, history and exam, ( mine used to play serious
    rugby), advice re the above. Instability may need a MRI to
    see cruciate competence. X-rays for old farts like me , >40,
    for the dreaded OA. ( my R medial condyle is F***ed) If
    indicated, diagnostic arthroscopy. If required, some good
    results from cartilage micro transplantation, it worked for
    me for 6 years.

    The above may require money, but we shell out a few hubdred
    quid on the latest kit and GPS etc.........don't we.?

    Remember that professional footballers have massive quads,
    and thats not just for kicking the ball .

    Next time you are walking up stairs, see if your knee pull
    is straight through the knee. I bet alot of you will see
    inward rotation.

    FWIW, I take NSAIDS every day, Vioxx actually, but I go to
    the gym three times a week, I think I have superb quads now,
    if only I had 30 years ago.

    Rant over, I am retired now, have plenty of time, but will
    never stand on top of a big hill again, I can do the coast
    path, well not the steep downy bits. Just be warned. JT

  2. Thanks John, useful information
    - so how's the move to Norfolk going ;-)

    "John Taverner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Yngbc.12235$Id.8100@news-
    binary.blueyonder.co.uk...

    Quoted message said:

    The knee pain thread shows that many of us suffer from
    knee pain.

    As an ex GP with F***ed knees ( note medical terminology)
    may I offer my


    two

    Quoted message said:

    pence worth. IMHO Rant mode on

    Lets go back to first principles. The knee is inherently
    unstable, unlike the hip. Stability is maintained


    by

    Quoted message said:

    the cruciates, but it is muscle strength, which is
    important, your quads


    and

    Quoted message said:

    especially vastus medialis, that's the inside one. Our
    gait determines the muscle pull through the knee,
    overinturning or out turning. I suffer from severe over
    pronation as do two of my kids. I f


    only

    Quoted message said:

    I had realised when I was younger, that my queer gait was
    affecting forces on my knee I would be not so F***ed now.
    When you are young, <35, you can get away with it.

    Walkers, mountaineers, skiers and snowboarders, do put
    INTERMITTENT


    stresses

    Quoted message said:

    on their knees. Its this occasional use that is the
    problem. ( No rude comments from the superfit)." Lets go
    up to Ogwen for the w/e and have a blast," yes we all do
    or did it, great day on the hill, knee twinges a


    bit.

    Quoted message said:

    Next morning, quads a bit tight, knee fine. Another great
    day, more than a twinge on the way down. Drive home, get
    out of car, twinge becomes pain. Back to work, we do not
    notice our gait has changed ever so slightly to minimise
    discomfort, this leads to slight quad power loss and
    wasting.


    Pain

    Quoted message said:

    goes, till the next downhill blast.

    And so on and on, the vicious circle starts. Our knee pain
    may not be not from an injury, its from misuse, and our
    response to it. We all like to think of ourselves as
    serious hill persons, we pride ourselves in our feats and
    baggings. We are strong, we will


    finish

    Quoted message said:

    this circuit, I, ve driven from London for this w/e. Till
    our knees


    complain

    Quoted message said:

    and we do not listen, and push onwards. Knee abuse is
    rampant.

    So what is the answer. This is a personal view and may
    not be the


    considered

    Quoted message said:

    view of the profession.

    I f your GP is a climber/skier/mountaineer, your half way
    there. We are terribly busy, and many have the attitude,
    that its self-inflicted, so


    stop

    Quoted message said:

    doing whats causes the pain.......leading to worsening of
    the gait etc


    etc.

    Quoted message said:

    History will often point to the diagnosis, and self help
    and exercise


    advice

    Quoted message said:

    may do the trick. But often does not. Sports physios are
    the next step, biometric assessment of muscle power.
    Advice re exercises.

    GAIT, see a podiatrist, get a gait video, you may be
    horrified at what you see...( I was), think about ortotic
    inserts. (I wear mine every day, just swap them about).
    Orthopod, history and exam, ( mine used to play serious
    rugby), advice re the above. Instability may need a MRI to
    see cruciate competence. X-rays


    for

    Quoted message said:

    old farts like me , >40, for the dreaded OA. ( my R medial
    condyle is F***ed) If indicated, diagnostic arthroscopy.
    If required, some good results from cartilage micro
    transplantation, it worked for me for 6 years.

    The above may require money, but we shell out a few
    hubdred quid on the latest kit and GPS
    etc.........don't we.?

    Remember that professional footballers have massive quads,
    and thats not just for kicking the ball .

    Next time you are walking up stairs, see if your knee pull
    is straight through the knee. I bet alot of you will see
    inward rotation.

    FWIW, I take NSAIDS every day, Vioxx actually, but I go to
    the gym three times a week, I think I have superb quads
    now, if only I had 30 years


    ago.

    Quoted message said:


    Rant over, I am retired now, have plenty of time, but will
    never stand on top of a big hill again, I can do the coast
    path, well not the steep downy bits. Just be warned. JT

  3. "Bryan Hall" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:Qlhbc.91$is5.56@newsfe1-win...

    Quoted message said:

    Thanks John, useful information
    - so how's the move to Norfolk going ;-)


    Nah, too hilly Now canals, we are into serious flatness.

    Perhaps after the other lesser classifications, we could
    have Brindleys. Each lock passed, a little cairn of dog [censored]
    added to. Each lock a Brindley. The Avon ring takes on a
    magical glow. :-)

    JT

  4. "John Taverner" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Lets go back to first principles. The knee is inherently
    unstable, unlike the hip. Stability is maintained


    by

    Quoted message said:

    the cruciates, but it is muscle strength, which is
    important, your quads


    and

    Quoted message said:

    especially vastus medialis, that's the inside one. Our
    gait determines the muscle pull through the knee,
    overinturning or out turning. I suffer from severe over
    pronation as do two of my kids. I f


    only

    Quoted message said:

    I had realised when I was younger, that my queer gait was
    affecting forces on my knee I would be not so F***ed now.
    When you are young, <35, you can get away with it.

    Running shoe manufacturers and sellers make a big deal of
    the importance of having the right type of shoe to fit your
    gait according to your level of pronation. Maybe if walking
    boot manufacturers did or if everyone walked in appropriate
    running shoes knee problems wouldn't be so common. Do high
    ankle boots do anything to increase that type of cause of
    knee problems or are they better for it?

    My brief experience of the odd twinge of knee pain when I
    first started hillwalking did as you say disappear when my
    leg muscles built up from starting running and biking. My
    girlfriend's knees creak quite loudly whenever she walks
    upstairs or uphill by the way but they don't hurt at all.

  5. John Taverner said:

    Walkers, mountaineers, skiers and snowboarders, do put
    INTERMITTENT stresses on their knees. Its this occasional
    use that is the problem.

    So are you saying that a regular hill walker should not have
    this problem? I had most of my knee problems when I was
    younger - at my most active and hill walking regularly

    Quoted message said:

    Our knee pain may not be not from an injury, its from
    misuse, and our response to it.

    Mind you, in my case it did start with an injury,

    Quoted message said:

    Remember that professional footballers have massive quads,
    and thats not just for kicking the ball .

    For supporting the knee I presume? I had good quads in my
    younger days due to all the cycling I did, but I had the
    knee problems at the same time.

    Paul
    --
    wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.uk
    wildwales.fsnet.co.ukwildwales.fsnet.co.uk
    photosig.comuserphotos

  6. "Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    John Taverner said:

    Walkers, mountaineers, skiers and snowboarders, do put
    INTERMITTENT stresses on their knees. Its this
    occasional use that is the problem.

    So are you saying that a regular hill walker should not
    have this problem? I had most of my knee problems when I
    was younger - at my most active and hill walking regularly

    You shouldn't accept anything wrong with you as "normal".
    Too many GPs have learned this as a defensive line. Not
    accusing John of this though.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Our knee pain may not be not from an injury, its from
    misuse, and our response to it.

    Mind you, in my case it did start with an injury,

    Ow.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Remember that professional footballers have massive
    quads, and thats not just for kicking the ball .

    For supporting the knee I presume? I had good quads in my
    younger days due to all the cycling I did, but I had the
    knee problems at the same time.

    Rugby players are known to be more prone to knee injury than
    many other sportsfolk. Some research has found that this may
    be due to imbalances in leg muscle strength. Rugby players
    normall have huge quads (relatively speaking) due to pushing
    in the scrum etc. The researchers found that players who
    followed an exercise programme to strengthen the biceps at
    the back of the thigh had reduced injury rates afterwards.

    Draw your own conclusions.
    --
    Mark South Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net <<Tiens!
    Ce poulet a une grenade!

  7. "AndyP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "John Taverner" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Lets go back to first principles. The knee is inherently
    unstable, unlike the hip. Stability is maintained


    by

    Quoted message said:

    the cruciates, but it is muscle strength, which is
    important, your quads


    and

    Quoted message said:

    especially vastus medialis, that's the inside one. Our
    gait determines the muscle pull through the knee,
    overinturning or


    out

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    turning. I suffer from severe over pronation as do two
    of my kids. I f


    only

    Quoted message said:

    I had realised when I was younger, that my queer gait
    was affecting


    forces

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    on my knee I would be not so F***ed now. When you are
    young, <35, you


    can

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    get away with it.

    Running shoe manufacturers and sellers make a big deal of
    the importance


    of

    Quoted message said:

    having the right type of shoe to fit your gait according
    to your level of pronation. Maybe if walking boot
    manufacturers did or if everyone walked


    in

    Quoted message said:

    appropriate running shoes knee problems wouldn't be
    so common.

    As a runner (and occasional walker and non practicing
    doctor) I'd have to say that I think John's hit it on the
    head with his comments about the intermittant nature of hill
    walking for many walkers. It's common for runners to develop
    knee niggles if they attempt an unusual level of activity
    without working up to it. Working up to it means adding
    mileage at no more than 10% per week and then running
    3/4/5/6 times a week depending on their training
    requirements. Trying to to intermittant tough walks is
    really just asking for trouble if you're not used to it.
    Become a runner instead, you know it makes sense. ;-)

    Quoted message said:

    Do high ankle boots do anything to increase that type of
    cause of knee problems or are they better for it?

    I doubt the height makes any difference on it's own. High
    boots will weaken your ankles though. As a general
    principle, more support = weaker muscles.

    Tim

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