Knee pain

"Help-Slip-Franklin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've been running seriously for about 14 months and several weeks ago
began
experiencing a pain in my left knee. It seems to be right in the center of
the knee behind the knee cap. There is no swelling and it does not hurt
all
the time. Randomly I will feel a sharp pain when either walking up or down
stairs. I've tried different stretches, icing, new shoes and rest but it
is
still there. I can even run and don't feel the pain (90% of the time). Any
help is appreciated.
Help-Slip-Franklin

Is this what you have? ITB syndrome?

http://saveyourself.ca/articles/ilotibial-band-syndrome.php

Seems to be very common and lots of different treatments depending on
severity.

For more information do a search for "ITB syndrome" or "Ilotibial Band
Syndrome"
--
Les <Slow Foot> Stewart
Beaumont, TX

"Les Stewart" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Help-Slip-Franklin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've been running seriously for about 14 months and several weeks ago
began
experiencing a pain in my left knee. It seems to be right in the center

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the knee behind the knee cap. There is no swelling and it does not hurt
all
the time. Randomly I will feel a sharp pain when either walking up or

down

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

stairs. I've tried different stretches, icing, new shoes and rest but it
is
still there. I can even run and don't feel the pain (90% of the time).

Any

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

help is appreciated.
Help-Slip-Franklin

Is this what you have? ITB syndrome?

Doesn't sound like it. He should look at what is commonly called Runners
Knee and officially called Chondromalacia. There are ways for most people to
alleviate it's pain. Some people though, have broken down the cartilage to
the point where running is not an option any longer. Most of us here have
probably suffered this at some point......it can be quite painful.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is this what you have? ITB syndrome?

Doesn't sound like it. He should look at what is commonly called Runners
Knee and officially called Chondromalacia. There are ways for most people

to

Quoted message said:

alleviate it's pain. Some people though, have broken down the cartilage to
the point where running is not an option any longer. Most of us here have
probably suffered this at some point......it can be quite painful.

I checked out the ITB and it doesn't seem to fit the pain I'm having. I ran
across patellofemoral syndrome PFS on the web site you mentioned and that
seems to fit pretty well to my symptoms. I'll check out chondromalacia and
see what that is. Do you think wearing a knee support with the open patella
or a knee band would help? I didn't run today and just rode a stationary
bike and didn't have any pain during the exercise but now (a few hours
later) I have a dull ache.
HSF

"Help-Slip-Franklin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is this what you have? ITB syndrome?

Doesn't sound like it. He should look at what is commonly called Runners
Knee and officially called Chondromalacia. There are ways for most

people

Quoted message said:

to

Quoted message said:

alleviate it's pain. Some people though, have broken down the cartilage

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the point where running is not an option any longer. Most of us here

have

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

probably suffered this at some point......it can be quite painful.

I checked out the ITB and it doesn't seem to fit the pain I'm having. I

ran

Quoted message said:

across patellofemoral syndrome PFS on the web site you mentioned and that
seems to fit pretty well to my symptoms. I'll check out chondromalacia and
see what that is. Do you think wearing a knee support with the open

patella

Quoted message said:

or a knee band would help? I didn't run today and just rode a stationary
bike and didn't have any pain during the exercise but now (a few hours
later) I have a dull ache.
HSF

I think you have to decide what malady you are suffering from before
deciding on a method of remedy. But really, it very much sounds like
Runner's Knee to me. As you say, check it out and see if it is what applies
to your pain and experience.

"Ignoramus19109" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I had knee pain for the last several years, that I thought was caused
by running.

This kind of makes me laugh. I used to think being stiff and sore was a
result of my running, until the day came when I had taken a 3 week break
from running and I was still stiff and sore....it was at that point I
realized being 49 years old created issues all of it's own without running
being a concern at all.

These days I realize being sometimes stiff and sore is just the way it is,
regardless of my exercise routine :^)

"Ignoramus19109" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I had knee pain for the last several years, that I thought was caused
by running. It prevented me from running more than 1-2 times per
week. Weight loss made the situation better for obvious mechanical
reasons, but has not solved it.

Quoted message said:

It disappeared about a month after I stopped eating grains and
potatoes.

LOL! As has been pointed out my smarter folks than yourself, where is the
proof that your knee pain was caused by grains and potatoes? When asked
repeatedly in the past, you ignored the questions.

Junk science is just that, junk.

Martha

Quoted message said:

--
Running Log: http://igor.chudov.com/weightloss/exercise.txt

This sounds like it could be a case of runners knee or maybe even some
ITBS. You may want to check out 3 products that I use to reduce the
pain. I suggest the PattStrap, PSC and Kneegard which can all be
bought from several websites, but I got mine at
http://www.pattstrap.com

The Kneegard is recommended for knee sprains, Runner's Knee, and
athletic injury prevention and rehabilitation. The KneeGard delivers
patella support and positioning, and allows continued activity without
further stress to tender areas.

The PattStrap relieves the stress and pain associated with Illiotibial
Band Syndrome (ITBS), and is a highly effective treatment alternative
for Patella Tendonitis, Osgood Schlatter's Disease and Chondromalacia
and many other knee ailments.

The PSC is a totally new concept for treating planter fasciitis,
chronic heel pain, excessive pronation, heel spur syndrome, and shin
splints.
The PSC helps to align the foot/ankle in the neutral position and
assist in the treatment and prevention of related injuries.

"Ramone Cila" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Ignoramus19109" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I had knee pain for the last several years, that I thought was caused
by running.

This kind of makes me laugh. I used to think being stiff and sore was a
result of my running, until the day came when I had taken a 3 week break
from running and I was still stiff and sore....it was at that point I
realized being 49 years old created issues all of it's own without running
being a concern at all.

These days I realize being sometimes stiff and sore is just the way it is,
regardless of my exercise routine :^)

Ramone Cila said:

"Les Stewart" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Help-Slip-Franklin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've been running seriously for about 14 months and several weeks ago
began
experiencing a pain in my left knee. It seems to be right in the center

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the knee behind the knee cap. There is no swelling and it does not hurt
all
the time. Randomly I will feel a sharp pain when either walking up or

down

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

stairs. I've tried different stretches, icing, new shoes and rest but it
is
still there. I can even run and don't feel the pain (90% of the time).

Any

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

help is appreciated.
Help-Slip-Franklin

Is this what you have? ITB syndrome?

Doesn't sound like it. He should look at what is commonly called Runners
Knee and officially called Chondromalacia.

It used to be commonly thought that runners knee was chrondo, and many books
state this, but this notion has come into question recently. In particular,
(Noakes believes that) the symptoms are no longer thought to be a result of
cartilage damage.

Noakes: "Fortunately, we now know that runner's knee is not chrondomalacia
patella". It's now sometimes described as PFS, a condition another poster
mentioned.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

In article <[email hidden]>, Donovan Rebbechi
<[email hidden]> responded to the statement:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Doesn't sound like it. He should look at what is commonly called Runners
Knee and officially called Chondromalacia.

by saying:

Quoted message said:

It used to be commonly thought that runners knee was chrondo, and many books
state this, but this notion has come into question recently. In particular,
(Noakes believes that) the symptoms are no longer thought to be a result of
cartilage damage.

Noakes: "Fortunately, we now know that runner's knee is not chrondomalacia
patella". It's now sometimes described as PFS, a condition another poster
mentioned.

Cheers,

Ozzie added:

Chondromalacia is more a description of a symptom that is a catch all
terms that describes what is occuring and gives no specific reason for
it happening except saying that it is a knee problem.

In http://www.mindfulness.com/of5.asp the idea is that the tightness in
the quads creates the pain in the knee. Relax the quad or release the
fascia around the quad muscles that are keeping it in a semi contracted
state and the quad moves through a larger range of motion relieving the
tendon from taking unnecessary strain - as tendon, while they can, are
not suppose to be stretched beyond what they can. In my mind's eye,
the "itis" or inflamation of the tendon or tendonitis is a result of
the quads not letting go as much as they should or can because of the
quad tightness.

The idea is to have strong and elongated quads not strong and shortened
quad muscles.

Here's a response back from 2001 when speaking about Chondromalacia:

Can you put your feet about 14 inches apart and keeping the back
relatively straight, go into a squatting position leaving your feet
flat on the floor.

As you go down, do you feel the pressure in the knees, or what sounds
like a kind of grinding in the knee.

The pictures of the people with their quads across the middle bar of a
hand railing, or the people rolling their quad/ITBand on the edge of
the gutter are two ways to get the quads to gradually relax. Rather
than use a gutter, go to a hard floor and just roll across the quad
from the outside in, and see what I mean. For some people the pain is
excruiating as the quad doesn't know how to relax. Well back to the
stuff that Miles, Denny, Y-Rotation, Doug and a whole host of others
have addressed over and over again about running form and style.

If you think you're doing something right but it's incorrect, you won't
change because you don't know that what you're doing in incorrect. So
back to the statement: It's not what you know that gets you in
trouble. It's what you know that just ain't so.

In health and on the run,
Ozzie Gontang
Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975
Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
Mindful Running:
http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

In article <[email hidden]>, Help-Slip-Franklin

Quoted message said:

I've been running seriously for about 14 months and several weeks ago began
experiencing a pain in my left knee. It seems to be right in the center of
the knee behind the knee cap. There is no swelling and it does not hurt all
the time. Randomly I will feel a sharp pain when either walking up or down
stairs. I've tried different stretches, icing, new shoes and rest but it is
still there. I can even run and don't feel the pain (90% of the time). Any
help is appreciated.
Help-Slip-Franklin

From Part 2 of the FAQ for rec.running:

Legs

Sore knees (Elizabeth Doucette [email hidden])

When running (also walking, and cycling), the inner most quad. muscle
(inner part of thigh) does not get exercised as much as the other three
quad. muscles of the thigh. If this inner muscle isn't strengthened by
specific exercises, an imbalance of the muscles may occur. This can
cause
irritation of the underside of the kneecap (chondromalacia patellae)
because the imbalance of the muscles can pull the kneecap towards the
outside of the leg.

The kneecap (which has two convex faces on the back) rides in a broad
indentation on the femur. Weak inner quadriceps (M. Vastus medialis) can
pull the kneecap slightly out of its "track"; and it is theorized that
this
is what causes chondromalacia (which I believe is called patellofemoral
pain syndrome these days). [edited for correctness 2/19/95 by
lmm5@postoffice. mail.cornell.edu (Lucie Melahn)]

Dealing with knee problems (most often the tight quads cause knee
problems) Ozzie Gontang <[email hidden]> The follow are from
some responses to rec.running emails:

The rolling of the quads or massaging them is extremely helpful in
loosening the quad muscle so that it can relax and release. Once that
happens, the muscles relaxes and takes the pressure off the tendon
which then takes the pressure off the knee.

As I've mentioned in other posts, during a training run, I may stop 6
to 10 times to keep loosening the quads or hamstrings.

Freeing the quads and working on the hamstring by using the edge of a
chair on them or sitting on a tennis ball or later a baseball as a way
to accupressure the hamstrings will do more for the release of tendons
around the knee.

Remember muscles relax and contract. If they only partially relax,
then the tendon has to take up that tension. Tendons can stretch but
they're not suppose to. It's the muscles that relax and contract.
Loosen that which is suppose to relax and unnecessary tension to the
tendon disappears.

If you are hitting on the back of the heel of the shoe as you run, as
in heel striker, then you are giving your joints a beating. We're back
to lifting the knees and marching in place to see what running is
about. If you are lifting your center of gravity with each step more
than is needed, then you are coming back down to earth with a rather
hard jar to the knees. If you are landing on the back of the heel of
the shoe, they your running is a deceleration with each step because of
the overstride. Overstride defined as your foot is landing in front of
your center of gravity.

Don't know how much running you're doing so don't know if it's about
cutting down. Practice lifting the knees as in marching in place and
lean from the ankle. Land softly ball then heel. As soon as the heel
touches that triggers the lifting of the other knee. The transition
means you don't have to jump up and down with each step.

I'm for running on uneven ground so as to get the foot/ankle and leg
able to do what they're suppose to do, adjust. I have an article
somewhere that talks about FSOS (Flat Surface Overuse Syndrome)

We'll be watching as you play with finding out what works for you. As
mentioned many times. My stuff is folklore. If it works for you, use
it. If it doesn't don't give it any (read: ZERO) energy and find
someone that does make sense and whose folklore works for you. And
when you find that, come back and share it with me and the others so
that we can educate ourselves better. And finally when you can't find
any good folklore, create what works for you and then share it back
here at rec.running for all of us to play with and test and experiment
with.

Post #2

In article <[email hidden]>, "jerry freedman"

Quoted message said:

I wrote here a few weeks ago. I had just started running and had a bad cramp
in on calf(soleus) and achilles tendinitis in the other. Ozzie replied
(thanks again)along with others who pointed me to Ozzie's stuff. I took a
few weeks off, did all the stretches, the marching exercises, the "stirrup"
squat and started back running (quietly). The good news is that my calf
problems are gone. Even with the running my AT gets better everyday. The
question I have is about my quads. To run quietly ( as recommended) with a
ball heel strike I find I have to maintain a sort of crouch. This is very
hard on my quads. I am doing 2 minutes run/1 minute walk for 20 minutes and
my quads can barely take it. Is this something I work through? Is it a
technique problem? I already lift weights including squats and deadlifts..

Jerry Freedman

Jerry,

The second picture at http://www.mindfulness.com/of5.asp where the
people are on hands and feet with the quads across the lower railing of
a hand rail would be a way to massage out the quads. You can use a
rolling pin on the ground or a piece of PVC, inch and a half or two
inch. Most of the weight is on the forearms and toes and knees.
Gradually you allow the railing/rolling pin/PVC to sink into the quads
as you relax and allow the quads to let go but taking weight off the
forearms and toes and knees. Do it lovingly and gradually.

Then you can begin to roll forward or backward to work the quads loose
always keeping most of the weight on the feet, knees and
forearms/hands. Also continue to breathe and keep the face and
shoulders relaxed otherwise you're transferring the tension from one
part of your body to another. The various techniques of breathing used
in helping women prepare for the birthing process follow the same idea
of keeping the body relaxed completely.

Regarding loosening up the hamstrings to release the quads more, here's
a piece from a previous post:

When sprinting, the quads(antagonists) get overstretched by the
hamstrings and gluts (agonists). I think I read in John Jesse that
hams and/or gluts account for 55% of the forward thrust when sprinting.
As they contract to catapult the body forward, the quads and the
illiopsoas are suppose to be relaxing and stretching to their max. But
if one's posture is prone to slouching, then the psoas is shortened
and when overstretched as happens in sprinting, it contracts or
tightens to protect itself. That tightening when joined by the
Illiacus is deep and often one feels it in the origin of the illiacus
at the top of the illiac crest of the pelvis. It may be the symptom of
the hamstrings having also tightened because they were strained because
the quads only partially relaxed when they quads were to have been
totally relaxed.

So. Get two baseballs. Or more gently start with two tennis balls.

Sit on a chair and let the tennis balls rest in the middle of the
hamstring. Or you can go up toward the sitz bones of the pelvis and
roll across the tennis balls by moving your body side to side over the
tennis balls. Up toward the sitz bones you'll feel yourself going over
tendons, feels like going over pieces of rope. Just sitting on the
tennis balls can act almost like an accupressure which can let the
muscle's tight spot or trigger point relax.

If you want to see how tight one of the hams is, sit on the EDGE of the
chair. One leg has the foot on the ground with the foot under the
knee, as most of of sit anyway. The other leg is out straight resting
on the heel. Close to a 45 degree angle between the ground and the
leg. Stay slouched and lift up that straightened leg. Now sit up
straight so that you are sitting on your sitz bones and the body is
erect. Now lift up your leg and you'll see that it's harder to lift up
the leg because the lifting muscle illiopsoas has to now work against
your hamstring which has been stretched by you sitting up straight.

So work on the hamstrings and loosen them by massage with the tennis
balls and them gradually go to the baseballs.

Also practice sitting up a quarter of an inch straighter during your
day. Remind yourself to do it ten times a day and know that it will
only last 20 to 30 seconds each time. This way you're not straining
the hams or the psoas and gradually you'll elongate those muscles. But
they're much easier to elongate if you're doing the rolling with the
tennis and/or baseballs when you're sitting at your desk at your
computer. Sit in a chair which has no back and no arms, so that you
are practicing the erect posture of a good runner. Gradually as you
stretch the hams, and psoas by good posture, it will effect your
running so that the tone of the quads, hams and gluts will be such that
their range of motion doesn't restrict the range of motion of the
agonist muscle group(s).

In health and on the run,
Ozzie Gontang
Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975
Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
Mindful Running:
http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp

Thanks for all the info so far, this group is a great help and wealth of
knowledge. I cut out running for a week and only biked during that time and
wore an open patella knee brace most of time I was active during the day and
most importantly I started adding leg extensions and leg presses to my
routine (I also engaged in more stretching of ALL the leg muscles before and
after exercising). I'm happy to report that the pain is greatly reduced and
I was able to run 5.75 miles today with no pain during the run. I'm
cautiously optimistic that all of this together will correct this problem
without "offical" medical intervention. I'm still not sure what the actual
ailment is, it seems to have the symptions of several of the conditions
everyone has pointed me to, but so long as it is corrected I'm fine with not
being able to put a name on it! Thanks again for all your help.
H-S-F