Kitchen furniture

Brian Drury said:

After 10 years and 40,000 miles on this:
<http://www.ibisdesigns.ukfsn.org/cycling/saracen01.jpg>

I treated myself to this:
<http://www.ibisdesigns.ukfsn.org/cycling/bianchi02.jpg>

Having never ridden a road bike before the change was a bit of a
shock. Raising the average speed to 18mph is good but the wrist, thumb
and bum pain is not so good.

I have only done 3 trips of 20 miles each so far but the thought of
anything much longer seems off putting at the moment.

My guess is that this is a typical reaction. Although the Bianchi
looks very pretty it even looks uncomfortable. Is the acclimatisation
a long winded thing? are there any tricks to aid the transition?

Oh, and where do most people put their hands? I have found 3 different
riding positions but the obvious one on the drops is far too
uncomfortable.

Brian

you could try flipping the stem to raise the position a bit, but you
might have to faf about with the front brakecable to make it happen.

The great thing about drop bars is that there is no obviuos position but
you alternate through all the 6 odd positions

(btw you might want to tidy up the wiring 😉 )

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

Brian Drury said:

After 10 years and 40,000 miles on this:
<http://www.ibisdesigns.ukfsn.org/cycling/saracen01.jpg>

I treated myself to this:
<http://www.ibisdesigns.ukfsn.org/cycling/bianchi02.jpg>

Having never ridden a road bike before the change was a bit of a
shock. Raising the average speed to 18mph is good but the wrist, thumb
and bum pain is not so good.

I have only done 3 trips of 20 miles each so far but the thought of
anything much longer seems off putting at the moment.

My guess is that this is a typical reaction. Although the Bianchi
looks very pretty it even looks uncomfortable. Is the acclimatisation
a long winded thing? are there any tricks to aid the transition?

Oh, and where do most people put their hands? I have found 3 different
riding positions but the obvious one on the drops is far too
uncomfortable.

To keep a similar riding position to the Saracen, it looks like you need
to raise the Bianchi's handlebars. You would then, however, lose one of
the benefits: a more aero position.

I know nothing of your physique but IME drops and beer guts don't go
together very well.

Would it be worth keeping your old saddle, even though it is probably a
little heavier and not colourful?

Brian Drury said:

I treated myself to this:
<http://www.ibisdesigns.ukfsn.org/cycling/bianchi02.jpg>

Nice. It does look a bit small compared to your previous bike. Does it fit
you OK?

Quoted message said:

Oh, and where do most people put their hands? I have found 3 different
riding positions but the obvious one on the drops is far too
uncomfortable.

I use the extra hand-holds as afforded by the nice Shimano 10 speed
STIs... Oh, hang on 😉

--
Mike
Van Tuyl titanium Dura Ace 10
Fausto Coppi aluminium Ultegra 10
Raleigh Record Sprint mongrel

Brian Drury said:

After 10 years and 40,000 miles on this:
<http://www.ibisdesigns.ukfsn.org/cycling/saracen01.jpg>

I treated myself to this:
<http://www.ibisdesigns.ukfsn.org/cycling/bianchi02.jpg>

Looks like a minter (the colour at least 😉.

Quoted message said:

Having never ridden a road bike before the change was a bit of a
shock. Raising the average speed to 18mph is good but the wrist, thumb
and bum pain is not so good.

I have only done 3 trips of 20 miles each so far but the thought of
anything much longer seems off putting at the moment.

My guess is that this is a typical reaction. Although the Bianchi
looks very pretty it even looks uncomfortable. Is the acclimatisation
a long winded thing? are there any tricks to aid the transition?

Road bikes are typically ridden more sportively, exerting more pressure
on the pedals, less pressure on the saddle. The less comfortable a bike
is, the more important it becomes to read the road surface ahead, you
then use that information to hover your behind and/or hands off the
saddle or bars at the right moments. Doing that skillfully significantly
reduces aches.

Padded cycle shorts or leggings are imo a must on a road bike.

Quoted message said:

Oh, and where do most people put their hands? I have found 3 different
riding positions but the obvious one on the drops is far too
uncomfortable.

Its a trade off between aerodynamics, comfort and access to the
controls.

--
Membrane

"mb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Brian Drury said:

I treated myself to this:
<http://www.ibisdesigns.ukfsn.org/cycling/bianchi02.jpg>

Nice. It does look a bit small compared to your previous bike. Does it fit
you OK?

I think he was kneeling in one photo and standing for the other?

Jc

In article <[email hidden]>, Brian Drury
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

After 10 years and 40,000 miles on this:
<http://www.ibisdesigns.ukfsn.org/cycling/saracen01.jpg>

I treated myself to this:
<http://www.ibisdesigns.ukfsn.org/cycling/bianchi02.jpg>

Very pretty. Very different.

Quoted message said:

Having never ridden a road bike before the change was a bit of a
shock. Raising the average speed to 18mph is good but the wrist, thumb
and bum pain is not so good.

I have only done 3 trips of 20 miles each so far but the thought of
anything much longer seems off putting at the moment.

My guess is that this is a typical reaction. Although the Bianchi
looks very pretty it even looks uncomfortable. Is the acclimatisation
a long winded thing? are there any tricks to aid the transition?

On a racing machine set up like this a lot of your weight is supported
by the reaction to your pedalling torque - pedal at a constant high
effort and you'll be pulling on the bars and using the saddle as a
steady rather than a seat. Of course we mere mortals can't keep this up
for long, so raising the bars and fitting a saddle that's good to sit on
is probably a good idea. Can you flip the stem to gain an inch on the
bars? Is that saddle comfortable for anyone? A Brooks just wouldn't
look right.

Quoted message said:

Oh, and where do most people put their hands? I have found 3 different
riding positions but the obvious one on the drops is far too
uncomfortable.

palms down either side of stem
palms down at end of tops
palms in at end of tops
thumbs over brake lever hoods
palms on brake lever hoods
bends
bottoms
and for the ultimate tuck, thumbs either side of stem, palms in.
:-)

Brian Drury said:

Having never ridden a road bike before the change was a bit of a
shock. Raising the average speed to 18mph is good but the wrist, thumb
and bum pain is not so good.

Wrist pain? I had a bit of discomfort when my aluminium framed bike was
new. Get Marsas padded bar tape, or Specialized Bar Phat gel pads for
under the bar tape. The Bar Phat plus good padded gloves sorted me out.

Quoted message said:

Oh, and where do most people put their hands? I have found 3 different
riding positions but the obvious one on the drops is far too
uncomfortable.

Hands on the top of the brake hoods is the best for me. I only use the
drops when *really* going for it, or for better braking when drafting
buses.

Brian Drury said:

Oh, and where do most people put their hands? I have found 3 different
riding positions but the obvious one on the drops is far too
uncomfortable.

You might try loosening the clamp at the front of the stm, and rotating
the handlebars upwards. The brake hoods then point upwards, and I find
that much more comfortable.
Very much IMHO, your bars slope downwards so your wrists will be rotated
forwards.

Brian Drury said:

Having never ridden a road bike before the change was a bit of a
shock. Raising the average speed to 18mph is good but the wrist, thumb
and bum pain is not so good.

I have only done 3 trips of 20 miles each so far but the thought of
anything much longer seems off putting at the moment.

My guess is that this is a typical reaction. Although the Bianchi
looks very pretty it even looks uncomfortable. Is the acclimatisation
a long winded thing? are there any tricks to aid the transition?

Give it a few more rides first of all, perhaps with the odd minor
experimental adjustment. If still very uncomfortable after that, try a
shorter and more rising handlebar stem, eg. 90mm, 73 degrees. Then maybe a
different saddle. The more upright position might lower your average speed
though. 18mph is very good!

Quoted message said:

Oh, and where do most people put their hands? I have found 3 different
riding positions but the obvious one on the drops is far too
uncomfortable.

Personally, I save the drop position for the highest speeds only, but more
serious roadies use it more of the time.

~PB

John Hearns said:

You might try loosening the clamp at the front of the stm, and
rotating the handlebars upwards. The brake hoods then point upwards,
and I find that much more comfortable.
Very much IMHO, your bars slope downwards so your wrists will be
rotated forwards.

Campag recommend having the hoods level, as Brian has them (and how I like
them), but different riders like different things - so yes it's definitely
worth trying with the bars tilted up more. The lever position on the bars
could be experimented with too, though that's much more hassle.

~PB

In article <[email hidden]>,
Membrane <[email hidden]> writes:
|> Brian Drury <[email hidden]> wrote:
|>
|> >Having never ridden a road bike before the change was a bit of a
|> >shock. Raising the average speed to 18mph is good but the wrist, thumb
|> >and bum pain is not so good.
|> >
|> >My guess is that this is a typical reaction. Although the Bianchi
|> >looks very pretty it even looks uncomfortable. Is the acclimatisation
|> >a long winded thing? are there any tricks to aid the transition?

It is. A VERY typical one, and has caused a great many people who
were sold such devices as a first bicycle to give up. Even your
previous hybrid causes quite a lot of people trouble, which is one
of the reasons that the UK general public feels that cycling is not
for them. "I tried it once, and my back/shoulder/elbow/wrist/hands
hurt for a week."

The bum pain is separate (as people say), and you clearly don't have
the other very serious problems that many people have with a crouch
(breathing difficulties and short hamstrings).

|> Road bikes are typically ridden more sportively, exerting more pressure
|> on the pedals, less pressure on the saddle. The less comfortable a bike
|> is, the more important it becomes to read the road surface ahead, you
|> then use that information to hover your behind and/or hands off the
|> saddle or bars at the right moments. Doing that skillfully significantly
|> reduces aches.

That doesn't help a huge amount. If you take the weight off your
hands, you are using your back muscles to support your torso, which
can cause equally serious lower back pain. The only way to avoid
doing either is to sit up - and bye, bye aerodynamics :-(

Some cyclists can handle a crouch, but many people can't - especially
those that have existing back or joint problems or take up cycling in
middle age. However, its reduction in windage means that it can be
about 10% faster than a fully upright position if you can.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

(Nick Maclaren) said:

|> The less comfortable a bike
|> is, the more important it becomes to read the road surface ahead, you
|> then use that information to hover your behind and/or hands off the
|> saddle or bars at the right moments. Doing that skillfully significantly
|> reduces aches.

That doesn't help a huge amount. If you take the weight off your
hands, you are using your back muscles to support your torso, which
can cause equally serious lower back pain. The only way to avoid
doing either is to sit up - and bye, bye aerodynamics :-(

Some cyclists can handle a crouch, but many people can't - especially
those that have existing back or joint problems or take up cycling in
middle age.

I'm 46, I've been cycling all my life but again took up more sportive
cycling ~8 months ago. The lower back problems that I had have
significantly reduced since then. Due I presume to strengthened back and
stomach muscles.

Where I cycle (Ireland, county Wicklow), the road surface is regularly
dreadful. During fast descends on poor surfaces I stand on the pedals,
use the saddle only as a guide between my thighs (steering the bike),
bum clear of the saddle and hands clear of the bar, forward torso
position.

When I started I made the mistake of remaining seated, hands on the bar,
not brave enough to let go. I quickly learned not to do that again, the
bum, back and wrist pain was most uncomfortable and lasted for days.

As I grew stronger I started using the same technique for short moments
to deal with the generally very poor road surface here, works a treat
for me. Not only has it increased comfort, it also allows me to go
faster over such poor surfaces.

--
Membrane

In article <[email hidden]>,
Membrane <[email hidden]> writes:
|>
|> I'm 46, I've been cycling all my life but again took up more sportive
|> cycling ~8 months ago. The lower back problems that I had have
|> significantly reduced since then. Due I presume to strengthened back and
|> stomach muscles.

That seems likely. But the converse can happen, for people with more
serious lower back problems.

|> Where I cycle (Ireland, county Wicklow), the road surface is regularly
|> dreadful. During fast descends on poor surfaces I stand on the pedals,
|> use the saddle only as a guide between my thighs (steering the bike),
|> bum clear of the saddle and hands clear of the bar, forward torso
|> position.
|>
|> When I started I made the mistake of remaining seated, hands on the bar,
|> not brave enough to let go. I quickly learned not to do that again, the
|> bum, back and wrist pain was most uncomfortable and lasted for days.

Yeah, but I will bet that you are riding a road racer and not a
roadster. Put 1.7" tyres on, use a sprung, padded saddle, and take
ALL of the weight of your hands off and you won't have that trouble.
You won't go quite as fast, of course :-)

I took a holiday in west Cork at a bit older than your age, and had no
problem with the roads - I don't even have trouble with decent farm
tracks. If you can drive an average modern car over it without
damaging it, I don't have trouble riding it. But traditional
roadsters were designed for the roads of the 1920s and 1930s. I got
flamed for describing the Irish roads as excellent for cycling :-)

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] (Nick Maclaren) writes:
|> In article <[email hidden]>,
|> Membrane <[email hidden]> writes:
|> |>
|> |> When I started I made the mistake of remaining seated, hands on the bar,
|> |> not brave enough to let go. I quickly learned not to do that again, the
|> |> bum, back and wrist pain was most uncomfortable and lasted for days.
|>
|> Yeah, but I will bet that you are riding a road racer and not a
|> roadster. Put 1.7" tyres on, use a sprung, padded saddle, and take
|> ALL of the weight of your hands off and you won't have that trouble.
|> You won't go quite as fast, of course :-)

Perhaps I should have said that you can't do this to an existing
bicycle that is set up as a road racer or hybrid. Inter alia, you
need a longer wheelbase, much more relaxed frame angles, and some
way of getting the handlebars MUCH higher and further back. For
example, the centre of my saddle is well over 40" behind the centre
of the front wheel.

Even my Batavus Torino is slightly hybridised, in that its handlebars
are swept (not, for example, North Road Raised) and no higher than
the saddle. And that does increase the wrist issues enough to be a
very minor problem under the conditions that Membrane described.

Very ridable, but not at all fast :-)

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

(Nick Maclaren) said:

|> When I started I made the mistake of remaining seated, hands on the bar,
|> not brave enough to let go. I quickly learned not to do that again, the
|> bum, back and wrist pain was most uncomfortable and lasted for days.

Yeah, but I will bet that you are riding a road racer and not a
roadster. Put 1.7" tyres on, use a sprung, padded saddle, and take
ALL of the weight of your hands off and you won't have that trouble.
You won't go quite as fast, of course :-)

For my "sport" rides I currently use a rigid hybrid with 700/37 tyres
(75 PSI front, 85 PSI rear) and a comfort saddle. I replaced the poor
quality stock steel sprung seatpost with a rigid alu one. So
considerably more comfortable than a real road/race bike.

Quoted message said:

I took a holiday in west Cork at a bit older than your age, and had no
problem with the roads

Road maintenance is a task for County Councils here, resulting in
varying quality roads across the country. Wicklow is very poor in places
(regularly the best/most hilly/most scenic places to cycle).

Quoted message said:

- I don't even have trouble with decent farm
tracks. If you can drive an average modern car over it without
damaging it, I don't have trouble riding it.

During low speed ascends a poor road surface is unlikely to cause me
trouble, the same road in the other direction when I reach ~40mph can
feel like trying to hang onto a jackhammer.

Quoted message said:

But traditional
roadsters were designed for the roads of the 1920s and 1930s.

I'm not sure what you mean by "traditional roadster". I have a tank of a
bike that I use for the city that I refer to as a "classic roadster"
(IIRC that is how Sheldon Brown typifies it). It is a steel frame bike
with mudguards, fully enclosed chainguard, stainless steel rims, luggage
rack, Nexus 7 hub, roller brakes, 700/38 tyres etc.

Not the sort of bike that can realistically be used in the Wicklow
mountains, its 23KG weight and the generally heavy going nature ensures
that you won't get far (I tried).

--
Membrane

In article <[email hidden]>,
Membrane <[email hidden]> writes:
|>
|> For my "sport" rides I currently use a rigid hybrid with 700/37 tyres
|> (75 PSI front, 85 PSI rear) and a comfort saddle. I replaced the poor
|> quality stock steel sprung seatpost with a rigid alu one. So
|> considerably more comfortable than a real road/race bike.

Right. And you are even using the narrow end of roadster tyres :-)

|> During low speed ascends a poor road surface is unlikely to cause me
|> trouble, the same road in the other direction when I reach ~40mph can
|> feel like trying to hang onto a jackhammer.

That well be true - I couldn't do that without coming off, which is
not good news at that speed! But, in a case like that, you need a
good grip on the handlebars to avoid coming off.

The reason that a traditional roadster helps is because the longer
wheelbase, shallower angles and higher handlebars mean that you
DON'T need to hold your weight up even downhill. However, the
wheelbase needs to be pro rata to your height, which is a problem
for anyone of over 5'9".

|> >But traditional
|> >roadsters were designed for the roads of the 1920s and 1930s.
|>
|> I'm not sure what you mean by "traditional roadster". I have a tank of a
|> bike that I use for the city that I refer to as a "classic roadster"
|> (IIRC that is how Sheldon Brown typifies it). It is a steel frame bike
|> with mudguards, fully enclosed chainguard, stainless steel rims, luggage
|> rack, Nexus 7 hub, roller brakes, 700/38 tyres etc.

Sheldon Brown's idea of a classic roadster isn't accurate, though
it is not totally off-beam (as that clot Richards' is).

That sounds fairly close, but it is the geometry that is critical
for your weight distribution. Also 700/38 tyres are rather narrow
for a true classic roadster - 42+ were more normal - in my experience,
hard-pumped wide ones give the best speed over mediocre roads.

|> Not the sort of bike that can realistically be used in the Wicklow
|> mountains, its 23KG weight and the generally heavy going nature ensures
|> that you won't get far (I tried).

Why does the weight matter? The energy you need to climb hills is
pro rata to your ALL-UP weight, and the difference between a 12 Kg
and 23 Kg bicycle for a fairly normal man is only c. 10%. The gear
range is the primary problem with the bicycle - my lack of puff is
a more serious problem with the rider :-(

As another thread indicated, the difference between energy output
is a factor of 3 between a tolerably fit unathletic person and an
undistinguished athletic one. That dwarfs the 10%!

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Nick Maclaren wrote on 06/05/2007 15:33 +0100:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
Membrane <[email hidden]> writes:

|> During low speed ascends a poor road surface is unlikely to cause me
|> trouble, the same road in the other direction when I reach ~40mph can
|> feel like trying to hang onto a jackhammer.

That well be true - I couldn't do that without coming off, which is
not good news at that speed! But, in a case like that, you need a
good grip on the handlebars to avoid coming off.

Nonsense, gripping the bars hard makes it much worse. Relax your grip
and let the bike find its own way through and you will find life much
easier. It holds for off-road too where it gets a lot rougher than the
worst road.

Quoted message said:

Sheldon Brown's idea of a classic roadster isn't accurate, though
it is not totally off-beam (as that clot Richards' is).

Or to put it another way, your idea of a classic roadster is different
from Sheldons and Richard's.

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

In article <[email hidden]>,
Tony Raven <[email hidden]> writes:
|> Nick Maclaren wrote on 06/05/2007 15:33 +0100:
|> > In article <[email hidden]>,
|> > Membrane <[email hidden]> writes:
|> >
|> > |> During low speed ascends a poor road surface is unlikely to cause me
|> > |> trouble, the same road in the other direction when I reach ~40mph can
|> > |> feel like trying to hang onto a jackhammer.
|> >
|> > That well be true - I couldn't do that without coming off, which is
|> > not good news at that speed! But, in a case like that, you need a
|> > good grip on the handlebars to avoid coming off.
|>
|> Nonsense, gripping the bars hard makes it much worse. Relax your grip
|> and let the bike find its own way through and you will find life much
|> easier. It holds for off-road too where it gets a lot rougher than the
|> worst road.

Do you EVER do what you claim to know about?

The problem is when you run into the edge of a hole or hit a ridge
or trough at a shallow diagonal. Those WILL twist your front wheel,
which WILL cause it to move at an angle to your direction. If you
don't correct that FAST (which, in the case of seriously uneven roads
means preventing it from twisting as much as it would 'naturally'😉,
your momentum WILL diverge from the direction of movement of the
bicycle, and you WILL then start toppling sideways and you WILL come
off.

While most bicycles are self-centering to some extent, even the most
stable ones won't correct from a serious twist, such as is caused by
serious holes, ridges and troughs. I need to hold harder than most
people, I know, because I cannot recover as well. But I have observed
what happens when MANY other people ride downhill over rough going,
when I was trying to work out what the problem was.

|> > Sheldon Brown's idea of a classic roadster isn't accurate, though
|> > it is not totally off-beam (as that clot Richards' is).
|>
|> Or to put it another way, your idea of a classic roadster is different
|> from Sheldons and Richard's.

Well, considering that it is a matter of record, and mine corresponds
with the record (as well as Whitt and, to a great extent, Sheldon),
it is more likely that Richards and you don't have a clue.

To prove the point, you only have to look at Richards' 5 (?) classic
handlebar designs to show his range of understanding. Why don't you?

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.