kids and toe clips

dhudes said:

Toe clips seem, in abstract, an appropriate solution but I'd
appreciate feedback on this from anyone with any experience with
children and toe clips.

Are their bikes multi-geared? --D-y

Oh, sorry I should have mentioned that detail. Yes, the younger one
has a 5 speed (one chain ring), the elder has a triple chain ring and
5 gears.
The elder girl's bike is much like a regular bike in appearance but
smaller -- the pedals look like regular platforms. The younger one has
a bigger-size little girls bike complete with flower decorations (and
floral decorations she's quite fond of that clip onto the spokes) and
the pedals are pink plastic (both girls required that their bikes have
a pink paint job all over, I think if they could have pink tires they
would love it).

Quoted post said:

dhudes said:

Toe clips seem, in abstract, an appropriate solution but I'd
appreciate feedback on this from anyone with any experience with
children and toe clips.

Are their bikes multi-geared? --D-y

dhudes said:

The elder girl's bike is much like a regular bike in appearance but
smaller -- the pedals look like regular platforms. The younger one has
a bigger-size little girls bike complete with flower decorations (and
floral decorations she's quite fond of that clip onto the spokes) and
the pedals are pink plastic (both girls required that their bikes have
a pink paint job all over, I think if they could have pink tires they
would love it).

A little girl who lives in my building had a pink bike with pink
decoration and white tires. And I must admit it looked very fly.

Though the tires did get dirty.
--
JT
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dhudes said:

My 2 daughters, 8-1/2 and 10-1/2 are getting into bicycling. They love
to go with me but their steel frame department store bikes, bascially
MTB frames with no shocks and wide tires on 20" for the younger and
22" wheels for the older, are relatively heavy and the girls have
trouble with hills, though they are young strong and determined. I
ride a hybrid with clipless pedals and MTB shoes and have experienced
the dramatic improvement in efficiency after having switched out the
platform pedals for shimano MTB clipless pedals. I would like to
improve my daughters' pedaling efficiency so they can better enjoy
cycling but I am concerned with practicality and safety.

Clipless pedals might prove too much task loading for them especially
the younger. There is also the concern of the effect on growing feet
and frankly the expense of bicycle shoes (if indeed I could even get
them in their size; bicycle shorts were difficult enough to find but
Perl Izumi does have youth sizes that some dealers carry).

Toe clips seem, in abstract, an appropriate solution but I'd
appreciate feedback on this from anyone with any experience with
children and toe clips.

Hmm. Personally, I'm inclined to think the advantage from fastening
feet to the pedals isn't all that large. I know people talk about
"dramatic" improvements, and I'm sure there is some, but I wonder how
much is psychological. Thinking biomechanically, it's hard for me to
see where the extra energy would come from.

Anyway - I think we gave our son toe clips when he was about ten years
old. He adapted without problems. Our daughter started riding on the
back of the tandem (a kid-back adapter) and had them there from the
start, but got them on her single only after a few years with a 24"
wheel derailleur-geared bike.

But we almost always have the straps loose, for easy exit. In that
mode, the clips and straps don't fasten you to the pedal; they just
guarantee your feet sit in the (hopefully) optimum position.

You might consider starting with the strapless mini-clips, if those
are still available. (If not, tin snips would produce them from a set
of regular toe clips.) Once they got used to that, try clips and
loose straps. Then cinch down - or go to clipless.

- Frank Krygowski

dhudes said:

Oh, sorry I should have mentioned that detail. Yes, the younger one
has a 5 speed (one chain ring), the elder has a triple chain ring and
5 gears.

My humble is to stay with open platform pedals for safety, at those
ages. I bet someone will post about knowing kids at your oldest girl's
age who use either straps or clipless pedals, though. Once the clip-
out is easy and automatic, it's better (opinion) to have the foot
located securely on the pedal. Straps and kid shoes could be a
difficult combination-- like that bumper strip around the front of old-
fashioned sneakers. "Ask me how I know" <g>.

Too bad kids' bikes tend to be so heavy. My son, 7-1/2 now, really had
to grind to get up neighborhood hills when he first started riding his
sister's old 6-speed twist shifter bike.

Quoted message said:

The elder girl's bike is much like a regular bike in appearance but
smaller -- the pedals look like regular platforms. The younger one has
a bigger-size little girls bike complete with flower decorations (and
floral decorations she's quite fond of that clip onto the spokes) and
the pedals are pink plastic (both girls required that their bikes have
a pink paint job all over, I think if they could have pink tires they
would love it).

My 13 year old had a pink bike, white basket, white tires, flowers,
and pink streamers when she was little. Little Kitty motif, IMS. She
got a ribbon or two at the Alkek (Houston) Velodrome kid races on it.
Single speed, but it did freewheel <g>. Not a hill bike, for sure.

Maybe lower gears? Is changing out a freewheel a possibility? --D-y

Quoted message said:

dhudes said:

My 2 daughters, 8-1/2 and 10-1/2 are getting into bicycling. They love
to go with me but their steel frame department store bikes, bascially
MTB frames with no shocks and wide tires on 20" for the younger and
22" wheels for the older, are relatively heavy and the girls have
trouble with hills, though they are young strong and determined. I
ride a hybrid with clipless pedals and MTB shoes and have experienced
the dramatic improvement in efficiency after having switched out the
platform pedals for shimano MTB clipless pedals. I would like to
improve my daughters' pedaling efficiency so they can better enjoy
cycling but I am concerned with practicality and safety.

Quoted message said:

Clipless pedals might prove too much task loading for them especially
the younger. There is also the concern of the effect on growing feet
and frankly the expense of bicycle shoes (if indeed I could even get
them in their size; bicycle shorts were difficult enough to find but
Perl Izumi does have youth sizes that some dealers carry).

Quoted message said:

Toe clips seem, in abstract, an appropriate solution but I'd
appreciate feedback on this from anyone with any experience with
children and toe clips.

Hmm. Personally, I'm inclined to think the advantage from fastening
feet to the pedals isn't all that large. I know people talk about
"dramatic" improvements, and I'm sure there is some, but I wonder how
much is psychological. Thinking biomechanically, it's hard for me to
see where the extra energy would come from.

The mechanical advantage of clipless pedals is power on the upstroke:
you are pulling up. Also when you pedal your feet don't slide around.
Finally, bicycle shoes have a more rigid sole than sneakers so you get
a more efficient transfer of energy from feet to pedal. this, like
bicycle weight, is not a cure-all: the rider's fitness plays a larger
role. When riding my hybrid do I pass people on road bikes that weigh
10lbs less because I have clipless pedals or because I'm a stronger
rider? Both (the strong riders on road bikes pass me when I'm at 20mph
like I'm standing still; I ride with a woman some 10 years younger
than I who has a road bike but no toe clips nor clipless pedals, I
cannot keep up going uphill but on the flats its no problem).

Quoted message said:

Anyway - I think we gave our son toe clips when he was about ten years
old. He adapted without problems. Our daughter started riding on the
back of the tandem (a kid-back adapter) and had them there from the
start, but got them on her single only after a few years with a 24"
wheel derailleur-geared bike.

But we almost always have the straps loose, for easy exit. In that
mode, the clips and straps don't fasten you to the pedal; they just
guarantee your feet sit in the (hopefully) optimum position.

You might consider starting with the strapless mini-clips, if those
are still available. (If not, tin snips would produce them from a set
of regular toe clips.) Once they got used to that, try clips and
loose straps. Then cinch down - or go to clipless.

- Frank Krygowski- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Could you elaborate or give a product pointer for these "strapless
mini-clips"? I don't quite comprehend them, perhaps you could describe
some additional details?

Thanks

Quoted message said:

dhudes said:

My 2 daughters, 8-1/2 and 10-1/2 are getting into bicycling. They love
to go with me but their steel frame department store bikes, bascially
MTB frames with no shocks and wide tires on 20" for the younger and
22" wheels for the older, are relatively heavy and the girls have
trouble with hills, though they are young strong and determined. I
ride a hybrid with clipless pedals and MTB shoes and have experienced
the dramatic improvement in efficiency after having switched out the
platform pedals for shimano MTB clipless pedals. I would like to
improve my daughters' pedaling efficiency so they can better enjoy
cycling but I am concerned with practicality and safety.

Clipless pedals might prove too much task loading for them especially
the younger. There is also the concern of the effect on growing feet
and frankly the expense of bicycle shoes (if indeed I could even get
them in their size; bicycle shorts were difficult enough to find but
Perl Izumi does have youth sizes that some dealers carry).

Toe clips seem, in abstract, an appropriate solution but I'd
appreciate feedback on this from anyone with any experience with
children and toe clips.

Hmm. Personally, I'm inclined to think the advantage from fastening
feet to the pedals isn't all that large. I know people talk about
"dramatic" improvements, and I'm sure there is some, but I wonder how
much is psychological. Thinking biomechanically, it's hard for me to
see where the extra energy would come from.

Anyway - I think we gave our son toe clips when he was about ten years
old. He adapted without problems. Our daughter started riding on the
back of the tandem (a kid-back adapter) and had them there from the
start, but got them on her single only after a few years with a 24"
wheel derailleur-geared bike.

But we almost always have the straps loose, for easy exit. In that
mode, the clips and straps don't fasten you to the pedal; they just
guarantee your feet sit in the (hopefully) optimum position.

You might consider starting with the strapless mini-clips, if those
are still available. (If not, tin snips would produce them from a set
of regular toe clips.) Once they got used to that, try clips and
loose straps. Then cinch down - or go to clipless.

- Frank Krygowski

--
JT
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Quoted message said:

Personally, I'm inclined to think the advantage from fastening
feet to the pedals isn't all that large. I know people talk about
"dramatic" improvements, and I'm sure there is some, but I wonder how
much is psychological. Thinking biomechanically, it's hard for me to
see where the extra energy would come from.

Yeah, I doubt there is much significant gain in power from pulling up.

The advantage of fastening feet to pedals is it let's the rider pedal
with more abandon, spending less general energy keeping the foot on
the pedal. This can help in propulsion and even in control.

I think for a kid pedalling uphill at low RPMs it might not help much.
But I doubt it would hurt if the kids are into it.
--
JT
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dhudes said:

The mechanical advantage of clipless pedals is power on the upstroke:
you are pulling up.

[snip]

Dear DH,

Pulling up is mostly wishful thinking. Here's a Robert Chung graph
showing how much a group of 14 riders pulled up in testing by Steve
Kautz:

http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/rbr/kautz.png

Here are the details for the graph, in 1-degree increments:

http://isbweb.org/data/kautz/highw.avg

And here's the test:

http://isbweb.org/data/kautz/

Other tests show similar trivial amounts of pulling-up effect. At
typical cadences, strain gauges on the pedals fail to show the
hoped-for effect.

Wild sprinters and insane climbers _may_ produce useful force pulling
up, but it's darned hard to pull up--when standing--with one leg while
still pushing down with the other leg with maximum effort. Because the
pulling-up muscles are so weak in comparison to the pushing-down
muscles, what felt like a huge effort to pull up is often
embarrassingly tiny when measured.

Another possible argument is that the clipless pedals allow _reducing_
the amount of negative pressure on the pedal on the back-stroke

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

I have had knee surgery and find the toe clips put too much stain on my
knees. I switched to speedplays x2 and in a week lost most of the
discomfort.

Where is this going? Being young I would hesitate to lock their knees in at
this point. I know running and weight training is restricted to a degree
for young children and my fear is that toe clips could cause injuries.

I would give anything to have my knees a 100%. I would leave the pedals as
they are and look at gears or other solutions. Sorry, if that does not
really answer your question with a specific answer.
"dhudes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My 2 daughters, 8-1/2 and 10-1/2 are getting into bicycling. They love
to go with me but their steel frame department store bikes, bascially
MTB frames with no shocks and wide tires on 20" for the younger and
22" wheels for the older, are relatively heavy and the girls have
trouble with hills, though they are young strong and determined. I
ride a hybrid with clipless pedals and MTB shoes and have experienced
the dramatic improvement in efficiency after having switched out the
platform pedals for shimano MTB clipless pedals. I would like to
improve my daughters' pedaling efficiency so they can better enjoy
cycling but I am concerned with practicality and safety.

Clipless pedals might prove too much task loading for them especially
the younger. There is also the concern of the effect on growing feet
and frankly the expense of bicycle shoes (if indeed I could even get
them in their size; bicycle shorts were difficult enough to find but
Perl Izumi does have youth sizes that some dealers carry).

Toe clips seem, in abstract, an appropriate solution but I'd
appreciate feedback on this from anyone with any experience with
children and toe clips.

aka Frank Krygowski said:

...
Hmm. Personally, I'm inclined to think the advantage from fastening
feet to the pedals isn't all that large. I know people talk about
"dramatic" improvements, and I'm sure there is some, but I wonder how
much is psychological. Thinking biomechanically, it's hard for me to
see where the extra energy would come from....

If you were more laid back, you would understand.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Quoted message said:

Personally, I'm inclined to think the advantage from fastening
feet to the pedals isn't all that large. I know people talk about
"dramatic" improvements, and I'm sure there is some, but I wonder how
much is psychological. Thinking biomechanically, it's hard for me to
see where the extra energy would come from.

Yeah, I doubt there is much significant gain in power from pulling up.

The advantage of fastening feet to pedals is it let's the rider pedal
with more abandon, spending less general energy keeping the foot on
the pedal. This can help in propulsion and even in control....

Especially for us anti-Brandts (physiologically speaking) who like to
climb with low gears and high cadence.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"dhudes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Toe clips seem, in abstract, an appropriate solution but I'd
appreciate feedback on this from anyone with any experience with
children and toe clips.

My girls adapted to power grips at about age 10 without any difficulty.

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

dhudes' who? said:

My 2 daughters, 8-1/2 and 10-1/2 are getting into bicycling. They love
to go with me but their steel frame department store bikes, bascially
MTB frames with no shocks and wide tires on 20" for the younger and
22" wheels for the older, are relatively heavy and the girls have
trouble with hills, though they are young strong and determined. I
ride a hybrid with clipless pedals and MTB shoes and have experienced
the dramatic improvement in efficiency after having switched out the
platform pedals for shimano MTB clipless pedals. I would like to
improve my daughters' pedaling efficiency so they can better enjoy
cycling but I am concerned with practicality and safety.

Clipless pedals might prove too much task loading for them especially
the younger. There is also the concern of the effect on growing feet
and frankly the expense of bicycle shoes (if indeed I could even get
them in their size; bicycle shorts were difficult enough to find but
Perl Izumi does have youth sizes that some dealers carry).

Toe clips seem, in abstract, an appropriate solution but I'd
appreciate feedback on this from anyone with any experience with
children and toe clips.

Toe clips and straps are of no practical use unless used with cleats and
tight straps. Even when loose, a rider's shoe can get caught by the
strap, trapping the foot [1].

For riding in street shoes and/or avoiding clipless systems, Power Grips
are the way to go: <http://www.ekosport.com/pg_benefits.shtml>. They
will attach to many platform pedals.

[1] I have bled to prove this.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

dhudes' who? said:

...The younger one has
a bigger-size little girls bike complete with flower decorations (and
floral decorations she's quite fond of that clip onto the spokes) and
the pedals are pink plastic (both girls required that their bikes have
a pink paint job all over, I think if they could have pink tires they
would love it)....

The only tires for girls' bicycles:
<http://www.nirve.com/largeimage.asp?id=1681>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Claire Petersky aka Mother Hen said:

"dhudes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Toe clips seem, in abstract, an appropriate solution but I'd
appreciate feedback on this from anyone with any experience with
children and toe clips.

My girls adapted to power grips at about age 10 without any difficulty.

A sensible parenting decision.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:

Toe clips and straps are of no practical use unless used with cleats and
tight straps.

You're mistaken. With sneakers there is a lot more control of the
bike and ability to pedal out of the saddle with clips and straps but
no cleats.

--
JT
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Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:

The only tires for girls' bicycles:
<http://www.nirve.com/largeimage.asp?id=1681>.

Cute.

--
JT
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dhudes said:

My 2 daughters, 8-1/2 and 10-1/2 are getting into bicycling. They love
to go with me but their steel frame department store bikes, bascially
MTB frames with no shocks and wide tires on 20" for the younger and
22" wheels for the older, are relatively heavy and the girls have
trouble with hills, though they are young strong and determined. I
ride a hybrid with clipless pedals and MTB shoes and have experienced
the dramatic improvement in efficiency after having switched out the
platform pedals for shimano MTB clipless pedals. I would like to
improve my daughters' pedaling efficiency so they can better enjoy
cycling but I am concerned with practicality and safety.

A tandem with a kidback attachment is a great way to get children into
cycling. Toe clips or clipless pedals are both appropriate.

--

John ([email hidden])