Kidney Stones & Riding

I have had my share of kidney stones over the years
including a massive episode 2 years ago of passing several.

I am firmly convinced that my episode 2 years ago (I passed
about 5) was caused because I was on a powerful and yucky
drug called Tegretol (which I was taking for Trigeminal
Neuralgia),

tna-support.orgtna-support.orgOpen ↗

which threw my electrolytes off balance, although the docs
pooh-pooh this..

That was my first episode in many years, and it has
stopped since I had brain surgery to cure the TN and am
off the drug.

Previous to that, I had kidney stones in my 20's and 30's. I
have currently been told that the single best prevention is
lots and lots of hydration, and that what you eat is much
lesser significance (mine are also calcium oxalate).

At one time I was taking two Potassium Phosphate (KPhos)
tablets daily, but now that is dismissed as hogwash!

So, the docs tell me - drink and drink to prevent.

I do notice that on this web site

yourmedicalsource.comKS prevenOpen ↗
tion.html#diet

that they recommend reducing CA intake!

members.aol.comfoxcondorsrvtnsOpen ↗ (Colorado
rental condo)

members.aol.comdnvrfoxOpen ↗ (Family Web Page)

howitzer said:

I've been road cycling hard core for about 4 years now and
I just had my first experience with a kidney stone (not
fun). The lab results came back as calcium oxalate. The
Urologist is telling me I need to cut down on my calcium
intake with things like green leafy veggies, chocolate (oh
no!) and nuts.

hmmm, that's a weird one. i used to get 'em like clockwork
every 2 years (calcium oxalate/phosphate? not sure -- i
didn't have insurance for most of my twenties) for 8 years
and then they just stopped 6 years ago. i still bike just as
often, hydrate about the same or not (i don't really think
about electrolytes). what changed was i stopped drinking
what had been a fair bit of milk & soda and became a
vegetarian (ie, i'm now eating a lot more leafy veggies and
nuts, thanks -- i'm a mutant who doesn't like chocolate).

i still have vivid memories of being in fetal position in an
observation room. yow .. then again, i do have knowledge
most people my age don't have about really good pain
killers. actually, my favourite memory of kidney stones is
after starting to pass one (while uninsured) at breakfast i
got on my bike and went downtown minneapolis and tried to
buy health insurance. clearly i wasn't thinking too
straight. i entered the office at lunch hour (i'm not
exactly a morning person) and when the receptionist told me
it would be 40 minutes i knew i couldn't wait that long (it
was starting to hurt bad enuf to effect my vision) i went to
work where i walked into tech-support and asked for a ride
to the clinic at the U of M. someone gave me one but i got
nauseous and vomit'd in the nearest bag i could grab. which
turned out to be his mcd's breakfast .. i know that because
his comment was:

"awww, man. you owe me a bacon, egg and cheese biscuit
meal."

then came the demerol shot.

but hey, good luck with the not getting kidney stones thing.
--
david reuteler [email hidden]

howitzer said:

Hi All

I've been road cycling hard core for about 4 years now and
I just had my first experience with a kidney stone (not
fun). The lab results came back as calcium oxalate. The
Urologist is telling me I need to cut down on my calcium
intake with things like green leafy veggies, chocolate (oh
no!) and nuts. I'm not convinced this is the problem since
my diet has not varied for many years and I do not consume
lots of dairy products and I have about two salads a week.
My thought is that I am loosing too much sodium and
potassium while riding, and not replacing it fast enough.
This would cause an electrolite imbalance. I drink lots of
water and sports drinks while riding and about 4 liters or
H2O daily. Am I not taking enough sodium? Anyone have
thoughts on this or experienced the same? Any doctors care
to comment?

Not a doc, but oft a patient -- have had 4 or 5 episodes of
kidney stones, two resulting in "procedures" to remove
and/or crush them (the latter being lithotripsy; the former
being blocked from memory!).

I also had a secondary contributing factor: my bones
weren't absorbing calcium, so they got weak while the
calcium collected in my kidneys. Ended up with stress
fractures all over my body (I was a runner back then), due
to low bone density.

What seems to have worked for me is taking a diuretic (HCTZ)
and Potassium Citrate, as I haven't had a stone in years
(knock on oxalate). The only change to my diet, really, was
to greatly reduce soda consumption; I just don't have 'em in
the house any more. (So now an occasional Coke is a real
treat.) No milk, but plenty of cheese still.

I was put on Fosamax for a while to rebuild my bone density;
taken off it once back to normal.

I've heard the reports of cyclists and brittle bones
recently, so it's something I should watch, no doubt. The
only other exercise I'm doing nowadays is yoga, which
although weigh-bearing isn't exactly strenuous.

I'd advise listening to your doc but also your gut; the
dietary changes s/he recommended aren't that drastic,
after all.

Bill "no help but got to tell my riveting tale" S.

Quoted message said:

The lab results came back as calcium oxalate. The
Urologist is telling me I need to cut down on my calcium
intake with things like green leafy veggies, chocolate (oh
no!) and nuts.

=v= I am not a doctor or urologist, so nothing I write can
even be considered a second opinion, but this goes counter
to what I've been told and have read for many years. Kidney
stones recur if you don't change your diet, but the diet
advice you got was the opposite of the advice I got! So
maybe another professional opinion is called for.

=v= When protein goes unused, it breaks down into compounds
that take calcium from the body. The compounds are excreted
as urine, passing through the kidneys along the way. This is
why high-protein fad diets are implicated in osteoporosis
and kidney stones.

=v= We have been trained to think of calcium as something we
get from milk, but too often milk contributes to an excess
of protein and isn't a helpful source of calcium. The body
needs calcium, so it's going to need to get it from
somewhere, and the usual advice is: dark green leafy
vegetables. (Spinach, the most popular dark green leafy
vegetable, is high in oxalate to the point where it's not a
good source of calcium either, but others such as chard,
collards, and kale are just fine.)

=v= FWIW, I had kidney stones 20 years ago and changed my
diet, and I haven't had them since. <_Jym_>

P.S.: Cranberry juice is excellent for the health of your
kidneys and urinary tract. Most brands have a ton of
bad corn syrup in them, though. The best value is to
buy it in concentrate form and make your own.

"howitzer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Hi All

I've been road cycling hard core for about 4 years now and
I just had my first experience with a kidney stone (not
fun). The lab results came back as calcium oxalate. The
Urologist is telling me I need to cut down on my calcium
intake with things like green leafy veggies, chocolate (oh
no!) and nuts. I'm not convinced this is the problem

It probably isn't. That advice was once de rigeur but these
days is considered outdated. Get a second opinion.

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"Jym Dyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]

[...]

Quoted message said:

=v= When protein goes unused, it breaks down into
compounds that take calcium from the body. The compounds
are excreted as urine, passing through the kidneys along
the way. This is why high-protein fad diets are implicated
in osteoporosis and kidney stones.

Really? See for example Am J Clin Nutr 2002 Apr;75(4):773-9
Comment in: Am J Clin Nutr. 2002 Apr;75(4):609-10. Calcium
intake influences the association of protein intake with
rates of bone loss in elderly men and women. Dawson-Hughes
B, Harris SS. Calcium and Bone Metabolism Laboratory, Jean
Mayer US Department of Agriculture Human Nutrition Research
Center on Aging, Tufts University, Boston, MA 02111, USA.
[email hidden]

High protein with insufficient calcium leads to net calcium
loss but high protein with sufficient calcium leads to net
calcium gain.

Osteoporosis is multifactorial: genetics, diet, hormones,
age, gender, and lifetime activity (levels and type).

Quoted message said:

=v= We have been trained to think of calcium as something
we get from milk, but too often milk contributes to an
excess of protein and isn't a helpful source of calcium.

You've been listening to the anti-milk loonies, haven't you.
Milk is an excellent source of calcium and it's
extraordinarily hard to get an excess of protein from a
substance that averages about 10 grams per 100ml. IOW, if
you drank half a litre of milk per day you'd average 50
grams of protein. Big deal. There's not the slightest
evidence it causes problems in an otherwise healthy person.
Excess protein is either oxidated or excreted anyway.

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Jym Dyer said:

This is why high-protein fad diets are implicated in
osteoporosis and kidney stones.

Cites?

AFAIK, there's no study on implication high protein fad
diets with -anything-.

Plus, what's this about 'high protein' diets. I don't know
of any such diets. ;-p

Low carb may cause the ignorant to =think= 'thus high
protein', but that's not really correct.

-B

-Badger "World's most dangerous City Bike Path Rider"

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Jym Dyer said:

This is why high-protein fad diets are implicated in
osteoporosis and kidney stones.

Cites?

AFAIK, there's no study on implication high protein fad
diets with -anything-.

Plus, what's this about 'high protein' diets. I don't know
of any such diets. ;-p

There are some, but it's been a few years since I've seen
one be popular.

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the newsgroups if possible).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Howitzer
[B]Hi All

I've been road cycling hard core for about 4 years now and I
just had my first experience with a kidney stone (not fun).
The lab results came back as calcium oxalate. The Urologist
is telling me I need to cut down on my calcium intake with
things like green leafy veggies, chocolate (oh no!) and
nuts. I'm not convinced this is the problem since my diet
has not varied for many years and I do not consume lots of
dairy products and I have about two salads a week. My
thought is that I am loosing too much sodium and potassium
while riding, and not replacing it fast enough. This would
cause an electrolite imbalance. I drink lots of water and
sports drinks while riding and about 4 liters or H2O daily.
Am I not taking enough sodium? Anyone have thoughts on this
or experienced the same? Any doctors care to comment?

Thanks

I have only had one and hope I never have another.I don't think I could take much more pain and live. I had a lot of acid reflux at that time and took a lot of antacid tablets (High Calcium). The doctor didn't think that was a contributing factor but I have my doubt of his opinion. If I have another one maybe someone will just shoot me rather than going thru 4 days of agony.

jhuskey said:

I have only had one and hope I never have another.I don't
think I could take much more pain and live. I had a lot of
acid reflux at that time and took a lot of antacid tablets
(High Calcium). The doctor didn't think that was a
contributing factor but I have my doubt of his opinion. If
I have another one maybe someone will just shoot me rather
than going thru 4 days of agony.

Vicadin is your friend.

Bill "until you get the morphine, that is" S.

S o r n i said:

jhuskey said:

I have only had one and hope I never have another.I don't
think I could take much more pain and live. I had a lot
of acid reflux at that time and took a lot of antacid
tablets (High Calcium). The doctor didn't think that was
a contributing factor but I have my doubt of his opinion.
If I have another one maybe someone will just shoot me
rather than going thru 4 days of agony.

Vicadin is your friend.

i vastly preferred the demerol shot in the butt. vicadin is
a little heavy and not as much "fun" ..

Quoted message said:

Bill "until you get the morphine, that is" S.

.. unlike morphine!

used a bottle of jack the third time. mine lasted "only" 8
hours or so and it was over. i agree completely with
jhuskey's assessment of the pain level, tho. it was truly on
another level.
--
david reuteler [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

You've been listening to the anti-milk loonies,
haven't you.

=v= No. I listened to my doctor and have read reputable
articles since. I passed this information along with quite
reasonable qualification. The human body is complex and
there are many interconnected variables, and it does not
help in the slightest to call people names.

Quoted message said:

There's not the slightest evidence it causes problems in
an otherwise healthy person. Excess protein is either
oxidated or excreted anyway.

=v= Why do you feel you have to write this? I wrote that
excess protein is excreted. The issue is what it does on the
way out. <_Jym_

"Jym Dyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You've been listening to the anti-milk loonies,
haven't you.

=v= No. I listened to my doctor and have read reputable
articles since. I passed this information along with quite
reasonable qualification. The human body is complex and
there are many interconnected variables, and it does not
help in the slightest to call people names.

The anti-milk loonies are loonies. And the anti-milk loonies
are the ones trying to peddle the [censored] that milk is not a
good source of calcium. It is an excellent source of
calcium. And your implications about "excess" protein
notwithstanding there isn't the slightest evidence that
"excess" protein is in the least harmful. There's a lot of
scaremongering out there but sod-all evidence.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There's not the slightest evidence it causes problems in
an otherwise healthy person. Excess protein is either
oxidated or excreted anyway.

=v= Why do you feel you have to write this? I wrote that
excess protein is excreted. The issue is what it does on
the way out.

Protein is the last thing you need to worry about when
concerned about osteoporosis. Check out the study I cited.
Your information is so last century.

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