Kidney Stones & Riding

I have had my share of kidney stones over the years including a massive episode
2 years ago of passing several.

I am firmly convinced that my episode 2 years ago (I passed about 5) was caused
because I was on a powerful and yucky drug called Tegretol (which I was taking
for Trigeminal Neuralgia),

http://www.tna-support.org/

which threw my electrolytes off balance, although the docs pooh-pooh this..

That was my first episode in many years, and it has stopped since I had brain
surgery to cure the TN and am off the drug.

Previous to that, I had kidney stones in my 20's and 30's. I have currently
been told that the single best prevention is lots and lots of hydration, and
that what you eat is much lesser significance (mine are also calcium oxalate).

At one time I was taking two Potassium Phosphate (KPhos) tablets daily, but now
that is dismissed as hogwash!

So, the docs tell me - drink and drink to prevent.

I do notice that on this web site

http://yourmedicalsource.com/library/kidneystones/KS_prevention.html#diet

that they recommend reducing CA intake!

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(Colorado rental condo)

http://members.aol.com/dnvrfox
(Family Web Page)

howitzer said:

I've been road cycling hard core for about 4 years now and I just had
my first experience with a kidney stone (not fun). The lab results
came back as calcium oxalate. The Urologist is telling me I need to
cut down on my calcium intake with things like green leafy veggies,
chocolate (oh no!) and nuts.

hmmm, that's a weird one. i used to get 'em like clockwork every 2 years
(calcium oxalate/phosphate? not sure -- i didn't have insurance for most of
my twenties) for 8 years and then they just stopped 6 years ago. i still
bike just as often, hydrate about the same or not (i don't really think about
electrolytes). what changed was i stopped drinking what had been a fair bit
of milk & soda and became a vegetarian (ie, i'm now eating a lot more leafy
veggies and nuts, thanks -- i'm a mutant who doesn't like chocolate).

i still have vivid memories of being in fetal position in an observation
room. yow .. then again, i do have knowledge most people my age don't
have about really good pain killers. actually, my favourite memory of
kidney stones is after starting to pass one (while uninsured) at breakfast
i got on my bike and went downtown minneapolis and tried to buy health
insurance. clearly i wasn't thinking too straight. i entered the office
at lunch hour (i'm not exactly a morning person) and when the receptionist
told me it would be 40 minutes i knew i couldn't wait that long (it was
starting to hurt bad enuf to effect my vision) i went to work where i
walked into tech-support and asked for a ride to the clinic at the U of M.
someone gave me one but i got nauseous and vomit'd in the nearest bag i
could grab. which turned out to be his mcd's breakfast .. i know that
because his comment was:

"awww, man. you owe me a bacon, egg and cheese biscuit meal."

then came the demerol shot.

but hey, good luck with the not getting kidney stones thing.
--
david reuteler
[email hidden]

howitzer said:

Hi All

I've been road cycling hard core for about 4 years now and I just had
my first experience with a kidney stone (not fun). The lab results
came back as calcium oxalate. The Urologist is telling me I need to
cut down on my calcium intake with things like green leafy veggies,
chocolate (oh no!) and nuts. I'm not convinced this is the problem
since my diet has not varied for many years and I do not consume lots
of dairy products and I have about two salads a week. My thought is
that I am loosing too much sodium and potassium while riding, and not
replacing it fast enough. This would cause an electrolite imbalance. I
drink lots of water and sports drinks while riding and about 4 liters
or H2O daily. Am I not taking enough sodium? Anyone have thoughts on
this or experienced the same? Any doctors care to comment?

Not a doc, but oft a patient -- have had 4 or 5 episodes of kidney stones,
two resulting in "procedures" to remove and/or crush them (the latter being
lithotripsy; the former being blocked from memory!).

I also had a secondary contributing factor: my bones weren't absorbing
calcium, so they got weak while the calcium collected in my kidneys. Ended
up with stress fractures all over my body (I was a runner back then), due to
low bone density.

What seems to have worked for me is taking a diuretic (HCTZ) and Potassium
Citrate, as I haven't had a stone in years (knock on oxalate). The only
change to my diet, really, was to greatly reduce soda consumption; I just
don't have 'em in the house any more. (So now an occasional Coke is a real
treat.) No milk, but plenty of cheese still.

I was put on Fosamax for a while to rebuild my bone density; taken off it
once back to normal.

I've heard the reports of cyclists and brittle bones recently, so it's
something I should watch, no doubt. The only other exercise I'm doing
nowadays is yoga, which although weigh-bearing isn't exactly strenuous.

I'd advise listening to your doc but also your gut; the dietary changes s/he
recommended aren't that drastic, after all.

Bill "no help but got to tell my riveting tale" S.

Quoted message said:

The lab results came back as calcium oxalate. The Urologist
is telling me I need to cut down on my calcium intake with
things like green leafy veggies, chocolate (oh no!) and nuts.

=v= I am not a doctor or urologist, so nothing I write can even
be considered a second opinion, but this goes counter to what
I've been told and have read for many years. Kidney stones
recur if you don't change your diet, but the diet advice you
got was the opposite of the advice I got! So maybe another
professional opinion is called for.

=v= When protein goes unused, it breaks down into compounds
that take calcium from the body. The compounds are excreted
as urine, passing through the kidneys along the way. This is
why high-protein fad diets are implicated in osteoporosis and
kidney stones.

=v= We have been trained to think of calcium as something we
get from milk, but too often milk contributes to an excess of
protein and isn't a helpful source of calcium. The body needs
calcium, so it's going to need to get it from somewhere, and
the usual advice is: dark green leafy vegetables. (Spinach,
the most popular dark green leafy vegetable, is high in oxalate
to the point where it's not a good source of calcium either,
but others such as chard, collards, and kale are just fine.)

=v= FWIW, I had kidney stones 20 years ago and changed my diet,
and I haven't had them since.
<_Jym_>

P.S.: Cranberry juice is excellent for the health of your
kidneys and urinary tract. Most brands have a ton of bad
corn syrup in them, though. The best value is to buy it in
concentrate form and make your own.

"howitzer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Hi All

I've been road cycling hard core for about 4 years now and I just had
my first experience with a kidney stone (not fun). The lab results
came back as calcium oxalate. The Urologist is telling me I need to
cut down on my calcium intake with things like green leafy veggies,
chocolate (oh no!) and nuts. I'm not convinced this is the problem

It probably isn't. That advice was once de rigeur but these days is
considered outdated. Get a second opinion.

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"Jym Dyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]

[...]

Quoted message said:

=v= When protein goes unused, it breaks down into compounds
that take calcium from the body. The compounds are excreted
as urine, passing through the kidneys along the way. This is
why high-protein fad diets are implicated in osteoporosis and
kidney stones.

Really? See for example Am J Clin Nutr 2002 Apr;75(4):773-9
Comment in:
Am J Clin Nutr. 2002 Apr;75(4):609-10.
Calcium intake influences the association of protein intake with rates of
bone loss in elderly men and women.
Dawson-Hughes B, Harris SS.
Calcium and Bone Metabolism Laboratory, Jean Mayer US Department of
Agriculture Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging, Tufts University,
Boston, MA 02111, USA. [email hidden]

High protein with insufficient calcium leads to net calcium loss but high
protein with sufficient calcium leads to net calcium gain.

Osteoporosis is multifactorial: genetics, diet, hormones, age, gender, and
lifetime activity (levels and type).

Quoted message said:

=v= We have been trained to think of calcium as something we
get from milk, but too often milk contributes to an excess of
protein and isn't a helpful source of calcium.

You've been listening to the anti-milk loonies, haven't you. Milk is an
excellent source of calcium and it's extraordinarily hard to get an excess
of protein from a substance that averages about 10 grams per 100ml. IOW, if
you drank half a litre of milk per day you'd average 50 grams of protein.
Big deal. There's not the slightest evidence it causes problems in an
otherwise healthy person. Excess protein is either oxidated or excreted
anyway.

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Jym Dyer said:

This is
why high-protein fad diets are implicated in osteoporosis and
kidney stones.

Cites?

AFAIK, there's no study on implication high protein fad diets with
-anything-.

Plus, what's this about 'high protein' diets. I don't know of any such
diets. ;-p

Low carb may cause the ignorant to =think= 'thus high protein', but that's
not really correct.

-B

-Badger
"World's most dangerous City Bike Path Rider"

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Jym Dyer said:

This is
why high-protein fad diets are implicated in osteoporosis and
kidney stones.

Cites?

AFAIK, there's no study on implication high protein fad diets with
-anything-.

Plus, what's this about 'high protein' diets. I don't know of any such
diets. ;-p

There are some, but it's been a few years since I've seen one be
popular.

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
newsgroups if possible).

Originally posted by Howitzer Hi All

I've been road cycling hard core for about 4 years now and I just had my
first experience with a kidney stone (not fun). The lab results came
back as calcium oxalate. The Urologist is telling me I need to cut down
on my calcium intake with things like green leafy veggies, chocolate (oh
no!) and nuts. I'm not convinced this is the problem since my diet has
not varied for many years and I do not consume lots of dairy products
and I have about two salads a week. My thought is that I am loosing too
much sodium and potassium while riding, and not replacing it fast
enough. This would cause an electrolite imbalance. I drink lots of water
and sports drinks while riding and about 4 liters or H2O daily. Am I not
taking enough sodium? Anyone have thoughts on this or experienced the
same? Any doctors care to comment?

Thanks

I have only had one and hope I never have another.I don't think I could
take much more pain and live. I had a lot of acid reflux at that time
and took a lot of antacid tablets (High Calcium). The doctor didn't
think that was a contributing factor but I have my doubt of his opinion.
If I have another one maybe someone will just shoot me rather than going
thru 4 days of agony.

--

jhuskey said:

I have only had one and hope I never have another.I don't think I
could take much more pain and live. I had a lot of acid reflux at
that time and took a lot of antacid tablets (High Calcium). The
doctor didn't think that was a contributing factor but I have my
doubt of his opinion. If I have another one maybe someone will just
shoot me rather than going thru 4 days of agony.

Vicadin is your friend.

Bill "until you get the morphine, that is" S.

S o r n i said:

jhuskey said:

I have only had one and hope I never have another.I don't think I
could take much more pain and live. I had a lot of acid reflux at
that time and took a lot of antacid tablets (High Calcium). The
doctor didn't think that was a contributing factor but I have my
doubt of his opinion. If I have another one maybe someone will just
shoot me rather than going thru 4 days of agony.

Vicadin is your friend.

i vastly preferred the demerol shot in the butt. vicadin is a little heavy
and not as much "fun" ..

Quoted message said:

Bill "until you get the morphine, that is" S.

... unlike morphine!

used a bottle of jack the third time. mine lasted "only" 8 hours or so and
it was over. i agree completely with jhuskey's assessment of the pain
level, tho. it was truly on another level.
--
david reuteler
[email hidden]

S o r n i said:

jhuskey said:

I have only had one and hope I never have another.I don't think I
could take much more pain and live. I had a lot of acid reflux at
that time and took a lot of antacid tablets (High Calcium). The
doctor didn't think that was a contributing factor but I have my
doubt of his opinion. If I have another one maybe someone will just
shoot me rather than going thru 4 days of agony.

Vicadin is your friend.

i vastly preferred the demerol shot in the butt. vicadin is a little heavy
and not as much "fun" ..

Quoted message said:

Bill "until you get the morphine, that is" S.

... unlike morphine!

used a bottle of jack the third time. mine lasted "only" 8 hours or so and
it was over. i agree completely with jhuskey's assessment of the pain
level, tho. it was truly on another level.
--
david reuteler
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

You've been listening to the anti-milk loonies, haven't you.

=v= No. I listened to my doctor and have read reputable
articles since. I passed this information along with quite
reasonable qualification. The human body is complex and
there are many interconnected variables, and it does not
help in the slightest to call people names.

Quoted message said:

There's not the slightest evidence it causes problems in
an otherwise healthy person. Excess protein is either
oxidated or excreted anyway.

=v= Why do you feel you have to write this? I wrote that
excess protein is excreted. The issue is what it does on
the way out.
<_Jym_>

"Jym Dyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You've been listening to the anti-milk loonies, haven't you.

=v= No. I listened to my doctor and have read reputable
articles since. I passed this information along with quite
reasonable qualification. The human body is complex and
there are many interconnected variables, and it does not
help in the slightest to call people names.

The anti-milk loonies are loonies. And the anti-milk loonies are the ones
trying to peddle the [censored] that milk is not a good source of calcium. It is
an excellent source of calcium. And your implications about "excess"
protein notwithstanding there isn't the slightest evidence that "excess"
protein is in the least harmful. There's a lot of scaremongering out there
but sod-all evidence.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There's not the slightest evidence it causes problems in
an otherwise healthy person. Excess protein is either
oxidated or excreted anyway.

=v= Why do you feel you have to write this? I wrote that
excess protein is excreted. The issue is what it does on
the way out.

Protein is the last thing you need to worry about when concerned about
osteoporosis. Check out the study I cited. Your information is so last
century.

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