Kid killed by dooring

dgk said:

Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door and
lost control of his bike:http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pa...

I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.

Quoted message said:

From the article there is not nearly enough information to form an

opinion as to blame one way or the other. Why are you so quick to do
so?

gds wrote:
:: On Jun 27, 11:07 am, dgk <[email hidden]> wrote:
::: Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door
::: and
::: lost control of his
:::
bike:http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pa...
:::
::: I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.
::
::: From the article there is not nearly enough information to form an
:: opinion as to blame one way or the other. Why are you so quick to do
:: so?

It's...a guess of what's more likely to have happened....not the laying of
blame.

gds said:

dgk said:

Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door and
lost control of his bike:http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pa...

I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.

Quoted message said:

From the article there is not nearly enough information to form an

opinion as to blame one way or the other. Why are you so quick to do
so?

So, you think the door was just left open? Doubtful. Certainly someone
was getting out of the car, and opened the door without even thinking to
look. We all know that happens all the time. It is curious that the
article suggested that the door was just hanging out there, open. There
certainly is some story behind it.

--

David L. Johnson

And what if you track down these men and kill them, what if you killed
all of us? From every corner of Europe, hundreds, thousands would
rise up to take our places. Even Nazis can't kill that fast.
-- Paul Henreid (Casablanca).

David L. Johnson said:

gds said:

dgk said:

Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door and
lost control of his
bike:http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pa...

I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.

Quoted message said:

From the article there is not nearly enough information to form an

opinion as to blame one way or the other. Why are you so quick to do
so?

So, you think the door was just left open? Doubtful. Certainly someone
was getting out of the car, and opened the door without even thinking to
look. We all know that happens all the time. It is curious that the
article suggested that the door was just hanging out there, open. There
certainly is some story behind it.

Anybody who rides around parallel parked cars knows the hazard.
Typically around here (Boston) bike lanes are striped right in the door
zone. I have stressed over & over to my kids not to ride within a door's
reach no matter what the stripes seem to recommend. I hope they've
learned, bit I have my doubts. Those damn lines can seem awfully
authoritative.

Peter Cole said:

David L. Johnson said:

gds said:

On Jun 27, 11:07 am, dgk <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door and
> lost control of his
> bike:http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pa...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> From the article there is not nearly enough information to form an
opinion as to blame one way or the other. Why are you so quick to do
so?

Quoted message said:

So, you think the door was just left open? Doubtful. Certainly someone
was getting out of the car, and opened the door without even thinking to
look. We all know that happens all the time. It is curious that the
article suggested that the door was just hanging out there, open. There
certainly is some story behind it.

Anybody who rides around parallel parked cars knows the hazard.
Typically around here (Boston) bike lanes are striped right in the door
zone. I have stressed over & over to my kids not to ride within a door's
reach no matter what the stripes seem to recommend. I hope they've
learned, bit I have my doubts. Those damn lines can seem awfully
authoritative.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I wonder who owns the car ? probabally a cop.

Peter Cole said:

David L. Johnson said:

gds said:

On Jun 27, 11:07 am, dgk <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door and
> lost control of his
> bike:http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pa...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> From the article there is not nearly enough information to form an
opinion as to blame one way or the other. Why are you so quick to do
so?

Quoted message said:

So, you think the door was just left open? Doubtful. Certainly someone
was getting out of the car, and opened the door without even thinking to
look. We all know that happens all the time. It is curious that the
article suggested that the door was just hanging out there, open. There
certainly is some story behind it.

Anybody who rides around parallel parked cars knows the hazard.
Typically around here (Boston) bike lanes are striped right in the door
zone. I have stressed over & over to my kids not to ride within a door's
reach no matter what the stripes seem to recommend. I hope they've
learned, bit I have my doubts. Those damn lines can seem awfully
authoritative.

Kids and others will ride in door zones even if there is no bike lane
though.

Robert

Anything is possible with the POB's ride in cities. He may have been
on cell phone inattentive, may have been blasting ipod and not paying
attention. Could have been riding wrong way where its difficult to
see potential door openers. I've seen enough foolish POB's and enough
bad motorists to know that anything is possible.
Pedestrians are also foolish but some are quick to blame motorists.

Roger Zoul said:

gds wrote:

:: On Jun 27, 11:07 am, dgk <[email hidden]> wrote:
::: Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door
::: and
::: lost control of his
:::
bike:http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pa...
:::
::: I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.
::
::: From the article there is not nearly enough information to form an
:: opinion as to blame one way or the other. Why are you so quick to do
:: so?

It's...a guess of what's more likely to have happened....not the laying of
blame.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Peter Cole said:

Anybody who rides around parallel parked cars knows the hazard.
Typically around here (Boston) bike lanes are striped right in the door
zone. I have stressed over & over to my kids not to ride within a door's
reach no matter what the stripes seem to recommend. I hope they've
learned, bit I have my doubts. Those damn lines can seem awfully
authoritative.

ya... Just a couple of weeks ago, in downtown Batavia Il, respondent wasn't
paying attention to TDZ found himself >milliseconds< away from eating a
SHINY black Jetta door at about 18 mph on his commuter-rigged MTB. It was a
_very_ close call.

And I certainly do know better. In this case, one pleads to going home
after a long midnight shift and being of diminished capacity. I posted a
brief cautionary retelling to my bike list at work.

..max

gds said:

dgk said:

Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door and
lost control of his bike:http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pa...

I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.

Quoted message said:

From the article there is not nearly enough information to form an

opinion as to blame one way or the other. Why are you so quick to do
so?

Because in 45+ years I have never seen anyone bike into an open door.
I have often seen doors flung open into my path and have avoided
almost all of them, but have gotten clipped twice.

dgk wrote:
:: On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 13:22:17 -0700, gds <[email hidden]> wrote:
::
::: On Jun 27, 11:07 am, dgk <[email hidden]> wrote:
:::: Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door
:::: and
:::: lost control of his
::::
bike:http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pa...
::::
:::: I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.
:::
:::: From the article there is not nearly enough information to form an
::: opinion as to blame one way or the other. Why are you so quick to do
::: so?
::
:: Because in 45+ years I have never seen anyone bike into an open door.
:: I have often seen doors flung open into my path and have avoided
:: almost all of them, but have gotten clipped twice.

Not only that....if you consider the habits of drivers....it is very routine
for someone in a car to just let the door hang open....while the driver is
busy doing something else and oblivious to the fact that they door is
hanging open into traffic. It amazes me that drivers seem to assume that
they own the space next to the car on the drivers side. We really need doors
that open up, rather than out, so that the foot print of the auto remains
fixed in the horizontal plane.

David L. Johnson said:

So, you think the door was just left open? Doubtful. Certainly someone
was getting out of the car, and opened the door without even thinking to
look. We all know that happens all the time. It is curious that the
article suggested that the door was just hanging out there, open. There
certainly is some story behind it.

He was doored. According to New York Post:

ÇAR DOOR' CRASH KILLS BICYCLIST
By JOHN DOYLE and LORENA MONGELLI

June 23, 2007 -- A 17-year-old riding his bike to work at a Brooklyn
restaurant was killed yesterday when a car door opened in front of
him - sending him flying into the street, where he was run over by a
school bus, police said.

Luis Ramos, of Maspeth, Queens, was riding with his brother on
Flushing Avenue in Williamsburg at 9 a.m. when a woman in a car
opened her driver-side door in Ramos' path.

Ramos slammed into the door, flew over his handlebars and fell into
traffic, where a school bus ran over him.

"I saw all the police and my heart jumped," said Lucas Ramos, 23,
riding behind his brother as they headed to their jobs as kitchen
help at Georgie's Restaurant.

"I raced over there and I saw my brother dead on the street. I wanted
to hug him but the police told me not to."

No summonses were issued, and no kids were on the school bus.

Ramos was rushed to Woodhull Hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

[email hidden] wrote:
:: David L. Johnson wrote:
::: So, you think the door was just left open? Doubtful. Certainly
::: someone was getting out of the car, and opened the door without
::: even thinking to look. We all know that happens all the time. It
::: is curious that the article suggested that the door was just
::: hanging out there, open. There certainly is some story behind it.
::
:: He was doored. According to New York Post:
::
::

Well, obviously, this was the most likely situation. No sane rider, even a
kid, would run into a door just sitting open.

:: ÇAR DOOR' CRASH KILLS BICYCLIST
:: By JOHN DOYLE and LORENA MONGELLI
::
:: June 23, 2007 -- A 17-year-old riding his bike to work at a Brooklyn
:: restaurant was killed yesterday when a car door opened in front of
:: him - sending him flying into the street, where he was run over by a
:: school bus, police said.

Quoted message said:

David L. Johnson wrote:

Quoted message said:

He was doored. According to New York Post:

As some of us expected. It is still curious that no mention was made of
who committed the act which killed this kid. That person should at
least have gotten a summons. It really makes you wonder, is it just
that a cyclist's death is always viewed as his own fault --- the guy was
stupid enough to ride on our roads, what did he expect? --- or is the
person who killed him being protected?

--

David L. Johnson

The lottery is a tax on those who fail to understand mathematics.

David L. Johnson wrote:
:: [email hidden] wrote:
::: David L. Johnson wrote:
::
::: He was doored. According to New York Post:
::
:: As some of us expected. It is still curious that no mention was
:: made of who committed the act which killed this kid. That person
:: should at least have gotten a summons. It really makes you wonder,
:: is it just that a cyclist's death is always viewed as his own fault
:: --- the guy was stupid enough to ride on our roads, what did he
:: expect? --- or is the person who killed him being protected?

Now that we seem to know more about what happened (not that it was hard to
make a good guess), I still find the issue of placing blame to be difficult.

Yes, this person likely - without a lot of thought - opened her door into
the the path of an on-coming cyclist and in doing so caused his death. I
must admit that I ALWAYS check for on-coming cars before I flop my door
open. But I ride bikes for fun. I'm also just cautious like that, since I
don't my door to be ripped off by some car coming.

However, if a cyclist is on coming from the right angle, a check of the
rear-view mirror might result in the cyclist being in a "blind spot". Hence,
if the driver only checked the rear view, she might not have seen the
cyclist. And since cyclists don't typically make a lot of noise....

Since the car wasn't moving, I'm not so sure if this wasn't really just an
unfortunately accident....

Roger Zoul said:

Since the car wasn't moving, I'm not so sure if this wasn't really just an
unfortunately accident....

Wasn't a young woman killed in a *very* similar matter about a year,
year and a half ago? I could swear I remember a woman on a fixie being
doored and then flung into traffic.

\\paul

Paul Myron Hobson wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::: Since the car wasn't moving, I'm not so sure if this wasn't really
::: just an unfortunately accident....
::
::
::
:: Wasn't a young woman killed in a *very* similar matter about a year,
:: year and a half ago? I could swear I remember a woman on a fixie
:: being doored and then flung into traffic.

That wouldn't surprise me....though the being flung into traffic part is
something more to be considered.

/off thread comment
BTW, you live in Atlanta, right?

I rode the Silver Comet Trail twice this year. The first time was in
Feburary on a very cold day. We only did 40 miles but it was great! We
could see ice hanging from the rocks in several places.

I rode it again in May of this year. This time we did 78 miles. It was even
greater! Once you get beyond the parts were there is a lot of roads to stop
for traffic, it was really a great trail to ride. Saw almost every kind of
cyclist you can imagine, too. Funny how the mix of cyclist, walkers,
runners, moms with kids in tow, all seem to mix up on there. I imagine there
can be some serious accidents too.

I guess I just hijacked this thread...oh well...this is usenet 🙁
/off thread comment over...

Quoted message said:

David L. Johnson said:

So, you think the door was just left open? Doubtful. Certainly someone
was getting out of the car, and opened the door without even thinking to
look. We all know that happens all the time. It is curious that the
article suggested that the door was just hanging out there, open. There
certainly is some story behind it.

He was doored. According to New York Post:

ÇAR DOOR' CRASH KILLS BICYCLIST
By JOHN DOYLE and LORENA MONGELLI

June 23, 2007 -- A 17-year-old riding his bike to work at a Brooklyn
restaurant was killed yesterday when a car door opened in front of
him - sending him flying into the street, where he was run over by a
school bus, police said.

Luis Ramos, of Maspeth, Queens, was riding with his brother on
Flushing Avenue in Williamsburg at 9 a.m. when a woman in a car
opened her driver-side door in Ramos' path.

Ramos slammed into the door, flew over his handlebars and fell into
traffic, where a school bus ran over him.

"I saw all the police and my heart jumped," said Lucas Ramos, 23,
riding behind his brother as they headed to their jobs as kitchen
help at Georgie's Restaurant.

"I raced over there and I saw my brother dead on the street. I wanted
to hug him but the police told me not to."

No summonses were issued, and no kids were on the school bus.

Ramos was rushed to Woodhull Hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

Now from that report one can conclude what was concluded by the OP. Of
course unless you have a normal amount of skeptism about anything in
the NY Post

Roger Zoul said:

Well, obviously, this was the most likely situation. No sane rider, even a
kid, would run into a door just sitting open.

It may not be a issue of sanity. There can also be the level of
attention. Two years ago there was a tragic death here of a very good
17 year old rider who was out on an early morning training ride. After
cresting a short steep hill he literally ran into the back of a parked
truck and died. The truck was parked on a wide shoulder but there was
no doubt that it was parked and had been for some time. While no one
knows for sure what happened the main supposition is that the cyclist
was heads down riding up the hill and simply did not look up.

The whole issue of dooring is complicated and as you say it is really
hard to easily assess blame. Most folks will check their side view
mirror and then open. It is much more likely that they will not see a
cyclist as compared to a motor vehicle.
I don't know what the laws are in NY but here in AZ citatiions are
often not issued if the investigating officer determines that there
was no fault evenif the outcome is bad. So, for example if a
pedestrian is hit OUTSIDE OF A CROSSWALK and the driver was not
speeding, reckless or impaired it is likely that they will not be
cited.
Without getting into an argument on the specifics of this or some
other case that makes sense to me in many situations and not in others.

Roger Zoul said:

/off thread comment
BTW, you live in Atlanta, right?

I rode the Silver Comet Trail twice this year. The first time was in
Feburary on a very cold day. We only did 40 miles but it was great! We
could see ice hanging from the rocks in several places.

I rode it again in May of this year. This time we did 78 miles. It was even
greater! Once you get beyond the parts were there is a lot of roads to stop
for traffic, it was really a great trail to ride. Saw almost every kind of
cyclist you can imagine, too. Funny how the mix of cyclist, walkers,
runners, moms with kids in tow, all seem to mix up on there. I imagine there
can be some serious accidents too.

I guess I just hijacked this thread...oh well...this is usenet 🙁
/off thread comment over...

I do live in Atlanta. I've only made it out to the SCT about 5 or 6
times, but I'm heading out there tomorrow to "train." Now that I'm back
on a bike, my goal is to ride to Birmingham to visit my parents in the
fall. So a buddy and I are going to do 60 miles. Normally, I'd feel
bad about training on the only piece of flat land in GA's Piedmont, but
hell, that's the route to Alabama!

And speaking of going far: when you go underneath the loonggg tunnel
that gets so cold even in the spring...man that's cool. Also, if you
have a single speed or fixie, that's what you want to take on the trail.
I left my uncle (4 day/week group ridin' type) like 5 minutes in the
dust on the slight but long grade out there. When he shifted down a
gear or two, I was stuck in 48x18 and took off.

For better or for worse, most of my riding is urban to/from school and
the store, so I don't get out and "train" nearly enough. If you're ever
in town again, drop me line, we'll get a casual 40 in or something
(ride, not beer).
\\paul
--
f = ph to reply