keys and the 7 countries studies

Quoted message said:

TC or anyone:

Did any sci.med.nutrition members listen to The Heart of the Matter on
CBC radio Tuesday night? Part one of this three part series dealt with
heart disease and diet.

Walter Willett and Kilmar McCully (sp?) were interviewed among others,
including a later researcher on Framingham data. All refuted the 7
Countries (?) data, and one said Keys had actually studied 22 countries
but diregarded data which didn't fit his hypothesis.

Another researcher (missed name) commenting on later studies from the
Framinghma data said HDL was really the predictive lipid that counted
for women. If HDL was high LDL wasn't a factor.

I am going on memory here, which brings me back to my question:

Did anyone tape Part One: The Heart of the Matter? I would love to
receive it by MP3 or some other tech drech...

'fraid not. too bad I missed it. sounds interesting.

TC

Quoted message said:

The program will have two more parts of one hour duration each. Part
Two On June 14 9 p.m. is on STATINS.

You can listen live to CBC RADIO by going online and clicking on
whatever location you choose. Unfortunately The Heart of the Matter
will not be archived.

The Heart of the Matter:
http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/

To listen online:
http://www.cbc.ca/listen/index.html

I read the book, Seven Countries, and agree with Keys that optimal
cholesterol level is 200 to 220. However, since this book was
published, free radical biochemistry has developed, for example: Dr.
Richard Stein, an AHA spokesman, recently stated that only oxidized
cholesterol is dangerous.

montygram wrote:
:: I read the book, Seven Countries, and agree with Keys that optimal
:: cholesterol level is 200 to 220. However, since this book was
:: published, free radical biochemistry has developed, for example: Dr.
:: Richard Stein, an AHA spokesman, recently stated that only oxidized
:: cholesterol is dangerous.

I recall that the average total cholesterol in Crete was around 200 (~
5.00)and Crete had the lowest coronary heart disease mortality. But Cretans
also had a high intake of vegetables, fruits, nuts and olive oil and hence a
high intake of phytochemicals and other antioxidants to protect the
cholesterol from oxidation. My point is that if you do not have low
cholesterol, it is important to prevent it from getting oxidized.

As you are always speaking in favor of saturated fats, you might want to
have a look at this study which was posted to one other thread in this
newsgroup:

Trichopoulou A et al, Modified Mediterranean diet and survival: EPIC-elderly
prospective cohort study. BMJ. 2005 Apr 30;330(7498):991.

"Some of the associations are both plausible and statistically significant,
notably the inverse associations of overall mortality with intake of
vegetables, fruits, and cereals, ratio of unsaturated to saturated lipids,
and the positive association of overall mortality with saturated lipids."

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/330/7498/991

--
Juhana

But what are they calling "saturated fat?" I've been posting about
this shell game they are playing for a long time now. One study from
the Rush Institute correlated "saturated fat" but not "animal fat" with
Alzheimer's. How is that possible? The subjects were old people from
the Mid West. They weren't eating coconut oil? What they really found
is that beef and pork is worse than chicken and fish, but that has
nothing to do with the saturated fatty acids. If so, there would be
pleny of AD in countries that use coconut and palm kernel oils, which
are much higher in saturted fatty acids than lard, for example (92%/88%
versus 39% for lard). Beef has a nasty combination of iron,
unsaturated fatty acids, oxidized cholesterol (after it is cooked while
exposed to air), arachidonic acid, and stearic acid, which enhances the
lipid peroxidation. Chicken and fish are much lower in these
substances, except that the unsaturated fatty acid contents are fairly
close (though a bit higher for chicken and some fish, which is how they
derived their bogus claims). The recent evidence suggests that AD, and
all the other "chronic disease," are directly related to free radical
mediated processes (as the root causes), and since saturated fatty
acids don't participate in these dangerous processes (such as the
creation of LTB4 from arachidonic acid), there is absolutely no reason
to fear it, but you can't got out and eat a fried steak and think that
it's okay. You've got to start thinking as a biochemist and forget
about the epidemiological and nutritional claims (unless there is a
biochemical or biophysical basis for the claims). Most of the
researchers don't know many basics, as I've discovered from several
years of research myself, but of course, they are not going to admit it
most of the time.

On 8 Jun 2005 20:49:08 -0700, montygram wrote in
<news:[email hidden]> on
sci.med.nutrition,sci.med,misc.health.alternative :

Quoted message said:

Beef has a nasty combination of iron,

Would you say iron is "nasty" even for people with low levels of ferritin?

Quoted message said:

unsaturated fatty acids, oxidized cholesterol (after it is cooked while
exposed to air), arachidonic acid, and stearic acid, which enhances the
lipid peroxidation.

X'Posted to: sci.med.nutrition,sci.med,misc.health.alternative

On 9 Jun 2005 14:42:37 -0700, montygram wrote in
<news:[email hidden]> on
sci.med.nutrition,sci.med,misc.health.alternative :

Quoted message said:

Can you find anyone in a Western nation on a "typcial diet" and in
fairly good health (who doesn't do things like run marathons) who is
"iron deficient" in any way? If so, how do you make that
determination?

Ferritin level less than about 30 ng/ml in men?

X'Posted to: sci.med.nutrition,sci.med,misc.health.alternative

--
Enrico C

Enrico C said:

On 8 Jun 2005 20:49:08 -0700, montygram wrote in
<news:[email hidden]> on
sci.med.nutrition,sci.med,misc.health.alternative :

Quoted message said:

Beef has a nasty combination of iron,

Would you say iron is "nasty" even for people with low levels of ferritin?

ironjustice seems to say it is nasty even if ferritin is completely
lacking. (And possibly if hemoglobin is lacking completely :-) )

On 9 Jun 2005 14:42:37 -0700, "montygram" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Can you find anyone in a Western nation on a "typcial diet" and in
fairly good health (who doesn't do things like run marathons) who is
"iron deficient" in any way? If so, how do you make that
determination?

Many, if not most asian immigrants in European countries are iron and
ferritin deficient. And many women too, A few men also.

(I myself have now passed above 30)