Kettlebell Preliminary Review

"Jason Earl" <> As I said before, I am very excited about my new toy. Even
after just

Quoted message said:

one day of playing with it I can tell that it is precisely what I was
looking for. >>

There are a couple of guys at the gym that bring in what I know are
kettlebells. They looked like bowling balls with a handle, and I first
thought that they were professional bowlers who do bowling exercises.

The ones that I have seen look like they are covered in rubber, but I have
not seen them close. They are not very big, like a very large bowling ball.

"Jason Earl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My copy of "The Russian Kettlebell Challenge" by Pavel Tsatsouline
arrived yesterday, and my 24kg kettlebell arrived today, and I am very
excited about my cool new toy. One thing is certain my girya (err,
kettlebell) is going to freak out my co-workers. I can't wait to take
the thing into the office tomorrow.

* THE BAD *

* The Price -- Don't get me wrong, I am excited about my new toy,
but it is a little frustrating that a 24Kg chunk of cast iron and
a 140 page 8" x 11" book cost me over $180. That's about what I
paid for my 300 lb Oly weight set. Even though I can afford it I
am cheap enough that it offends my sensibilities to pay that kind
of money for a cannon ball with a handle and a "book" that looks
like a the accessory workbook to a first year economics textbook.

* The Book -- Forty pages of kettlebell history and propaganda in a
140 page book.

* THE GOOD *

* The Kettlebell -- The kbell was expensive to purchase, expensive
to ship, but it is clearly worth it. The finish is very well done
(especially on the handle), and after a few sets of kbell cleans
it is pretty clear that my hands are going to be thanking me for
not scrimping. I only wish I could have seen the UPS guy actually
deliver the thing. Steve, I appreciate the help picking out the
right size.

* The Book -- There was actually quite a bit about the book that was
annoying, and I really wish that Pavel had put more information in
it instead of trying to sell me some of his other works (although
I will admit that I am a little intrigued about his books on
flexibility). However, I liked the Russian Comrade schtick, and
the information I needed to get started with the kbell is
definitely included. The first time I read the book I really
wished that it came with more concrete sample programs, but on
further reflection I realized that it's not like I would follow a
kbell-only workout anyhow. The kbell is just a tool that I can
use at work. What I needed from the book was some basic
instruction, a few helpful hints and the motivation to actually
try the stuff out. Pavel delivers on that level.

* The Website -- Where the book leaves a little to be desired in the
workout selection department dragondoor.com makes up in spades.
There are plenty of articles about kbell workouts.

Yesterday I just got my copy of the new kettlebell manifesto, "Enter The
Kettlebell" - haven't opened it yet, also ordered the DVD, will report
once I get some time with either. (Not likely soon as my wife's
86-year-old father is in the hospital with an apparently inoperable
heart condition.)

Quoted message said:

As I said before, I am very excited about my new toy. Even after just
one day of playing with it I can tell that it is precisely what I was
looking for. As a note to other folks that might be interested in
working with a kbell don't attempt your first windmill after
exhausting yourself with swings, cleans, and military presses 🙂.

There is an article on my site about planning kb workouts, with the
general guideline being to do strength moves before speed moves. That's
opposite of barbell work but, in the case of the kb, the speed moves are
usually for high-ish reps while the strength moves are not, so you want
to be fresh for presses and windmills before moving on to cleans,
swings, snatches, and the like. If you're doing all these, a good order
might be press, windmill (end of strength/"grinds" section of your
workout), [censored], clean, swing (end of "ballistics" section of your
workout).

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Quoted message said:

Jason

Felix Fagarone said:

"Jason Earl"

Quoted message said:

As I said before, I am very excited about my new toy. Even after
just one day of playing with it I can tell that it is precisely
what I was looking for.

There are a couple of guys at the gym that bring in what I know are
kettlebells. They looked like bowling balls with a handle, and I
first thought that they were professional bowlers who do bowling
exercises.

In a world where anyone that uses free weights is odd, kettlebells are
a whole 'nother level of weird. That's one of the primary reasons I
got one. I want to freak out my buddies at work. I can't wait till
they see me walk in with what is essentially a cannon ball with a
handle.

Quoted message said:

The ones that I have seen look like they are covered in rubber, but
I have not seen them close. They are not very big, like a very large
bowling ball.

Mine looks like it could be coated with some sort of vinyl, but it's
just a very heavy coat of paint. The handle in particular seems to
have been heavily coated so that it is mostly smooth. After just one
day of playing with it my hands and forearms hurt from gripping the
thick handle. I have small hands, and hanging on to the beast gets to
be taxing after a bit.

As a supplement to my weight training I think the kettlebell is going
to be a big hit. I can't imagine taking it to a gym though. What's
the point? In the time it takes to get to the gym I could already be
done with a quick kettlebell workout.

Jason

"Jason Earl" <I can't imagine taking it to a gym though. What's the point?
In the time it takes to get to the gym I could already be done with a quick
kettlebell workout.

Quoted message said:

I see one of the kettlebell guys nearly every day. I think he does a regular
workout with weights and machines and has a couple of kettlebell exercises
that he mixes in with his workout.

At least that seems to be what he is doing.

Steve Freides said:

"Jason Earl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Yesterday I just got my copy of the new kettlebell manifesto, "Enter
The Kettlebell" - haven't opened it yet, also ordered the DVD, will
report once I get some time with either. (Not likely soon as my
wife's 86-year-old father is in the hospital with an apparently
inoperable heart condition.)

I am sorry to hear about your father-in-law. I look forward to
hearing what you have to say about the book. I am also interested in
hearing which of Pavel's stretching books you would recommend.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As I said before, I am very excited about my new toy. Even after
just one day of playing with it I can tell that it is precisely
what I was looking for. As a note to other folks that might be
interested in working with a kbell don't attempt your first
windmill after exhausting yourself with swings, cleans, and
military presses 🙂.

There is an article on my site about planning kb workouts, with the
general guideline being to do strength moves before speed moves.
That's opposite of barbell work but, in the case of the kb, the
speed moves are usually for high-ish reps while the strength moves
are not, so you want to be fresh for presses and windmills before
moving on to cleans, swings, snatches, and the like. If you're
doing all these, a good order might be press, windmill (end of
strength/"grinds" section of your workout), [censored], clean, swing
(end of "ballistics" section of your workout).

Yes, I read that (after scaring myself thoroughly). In retrospect I
must admit that I should have realized that it was foolish to attempt
an esoteric new lift that involved hoisting 24kg above my head when I
was less than absolutely fresh, but learning the lifts was fun 🙂. I
was simply following along in the book...

As an aside, I would highly recommend Steve's site (www.kbnj.com) to
anyone interested in starting with kettlebells. Steve's site really
should be the preface to Pavel's book.

This morning I am even more convinced that a kettlebell was a good
idea. I have been taking a break from work every hour or so to
practice kbell swings. My plan is to keep track of how many I do in a
day and then try and increase the number every day for a week or so.
None of the short workouts really feels like it is that much work, but
I can already tell that by the end of the day the mini workouts are
going to add up.

As expected, my buddies at work are perplexed by my new toy. They are
convinced I am crazy.

Jason

Steve Freides said:

Jason Earl said:

My copy of "The Russian Kettlebell Challenge" by Pavel Tsatsouline
arrived yesterday, and my 24kg kettlebell arrived today, and I am very
excited about my cool new toy. One thing is certain my girya (err,
kettlebell) is going to freak out my co-workers. I can't wait to take
the thing into the office tomorrow.
I liked the Russian Comrade schtick

....

Quoted message said:

Yesterday I just got my copy of the new kettlebell manifesto, "Enter The
Kettlebell" - haven't opened it yet, also ordered the DVD, will report
once I get some time with either.

All foreign born citizens currently living in westernalized countries
are advised to stay away from that stuff. Some things they check
during ze visa and citizenship interviews are

"Do you own kettlebells and/or any manifestos?"

and

"Have you ever called your buddies comrades?"

If any of these are Yes, or if you don't pass the rabies probe test
(and in fact, affirmative replies are highly correlated with the
positive test results), then man your sooo deported.

"Jason Earl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve Freides said:

"Jason Earl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Yesterday I just got my copy of the new kettlebell manifesto, "Enter
The Kettlebell" - haven't opened it yet, also ordered the DVD, will
report once I get some time with either. (Not likely soon as my
wife's 86-year-old father is in the hospital with an apparently
inoperable heart condition.)

I am sorry to hear about your father-in-law. .

Thanks.

Quoted message said:

I look forward to
hearing what you have to say about the book

So far I haven't even opened the cover - been on the phone w/ my wife's
parents and doctors trying to decide if stents or bypass, complicated by
the fact that we just found out his cardiologist recommended bypass
seven years ago but they got one opinion from one surgeon who didn't
want to do it because of my father-in-laws age. Now he's seven years
older and the cardiologist _still_ thinks he should have the bypass
surgery, and my in-laws still don't want to. You can pick your friends,
you can pick your nose, but you can't pick your family. 🙂 And trying
to get some work done and some exercise in as well.

Quoted message said:

I am also interested in
hearing which of Pavel's stretching books you would recommend.

Here's a bit of history to preface my recommendation. Pavel's first
book on the subject of flexibility was "Beyond Stretching." I confess
it didn't do much for me. If you then read the preface to the book I
recommend for you, "Relax Into Stretch," you'll see he says that the
intervening years taught him what works and what doesn't, and RIS is the
product of that. The focus of RIS is flexibility.

Another book that might be considered a companion is "Super Joints", a
book that focuses on joint health. The two subjects are obviously
related but, just as obvious, they're not the same. A third book is
called "Forced Relaxation" and contains advanced flexibility
techniques - I've never owned or read FR, but work from SJ is part of my
daily warmup, and RIS is what got me doing splits. In your place, I'd
say if you feel creaky, start with SuperJoints, and if not, start with
RIS and follow with SuperJoints at some point or just get the both of
them at the same time. The two books (RIS and SJ) mention exercises
from each other and it is interesting, at least for me, to learn how to
use the same movement in the mornings to warmup and put my joints
through a full ROM, while later using different techniques with some of
the same movements to work on improving flexibility. Links:

Relax Into Stretch: http://www.kbnj.com/ris.htm
Super Joints: http://www.kbnj.com/sj.htm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As I said before, I am very excited about my new toy. Even after
just one day of playing with it I can tell that it is precisely
what I was looking for. As a note to other folks that might be
interested in working with a kbell don't attempt your first
windmill after exhausting yourself with swings, cleans, and
military presses 🙂.

There is an article on my site about planning kb workouts, with the
general guideline being to do strength moves before speed moves.
That's opposite of barbell work but, in the case of the kb, the
speed moves are usually for high-ish reps while the strength moves
are not, so you want to be fresh for presses and windmills before
moving on to cleans, swings, snatches, and the like. If you're
doing all these, a good order might be press, windmill (end of
strength/"grinds" section of your workout), [censored], clean, swing
(end of "ballistics" section of your workout).

Yes, I read that (after scaring myself thoroughly). In retrospect I
must admit that I should have realized that it was foolish to attempt
an esoteric new lift that involved hoisting 24kg above my head when I
was less than absolutely fresh, but learning the lifts was fun 🙂. I
was simply following along in the book...

If it makes you feel any better, I've never bonked myself on the head
with a kettlebell but I've gotten close once or twice, and I got as
close as I've ever gotten just yesterday. Was trying a two-kb turkish
getup that, suffice it to say, didn't get up.

Quoted message said:

As an aside, I would highly recommend Steve's site (www.kbnj.com) to
anyone interested in starting with kettlebells. Steve's site really
should be the preface to Pavel's book.

There are plenty of good kettlebell resources out there but thank you.

Quoted message said:

This morning I am even more convinced that a kettlebell was a good
idea. I have been taking a break from work every hour or so to
practice kbell swings. My plan is to keep track of how many I do in a
day and then try and increase the number every day for a week or so.
None of the short workouts really feels like it is that much work, but
I can already tell that by the end of the day the mini workouts are
going to add up.

Yup.

Quoted message said:

As expected, my buddies at work are perplexed by my new toy. They are
convinced I am crazy.

I'm not sure any regular participant in mfw is anything but crazy.

Quoted message said:

Jason

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Here's a bit of history to preface my recommendation. Pavel's first book
on the subject of flexibility was "Beyond Stretching." I confess it
didn't do much for me. If you then read the preface to the book I
recommend for you, "Relax Into Stretch," you'll see he says that the
intervening years taught him what works and what doesn't, and RIS is the
product of that. The focus of RIS is flexibility.

And that is exactly the reason that a lot of folks find Pavel's products and
marketing so objectionable.

Here he has an overpriced product that he essentially obsoleted. And he has
a series of overpriced products without any clear distnction between them.
He keeps the obsolete product in the lineup so he can sell more overpriced
"reports".

If he sold books, real books, they would be more complete. His stuff is good
enough that he could write one or two good books for a reasonable price. He
could own this market. Instead he creates a series of minimal information
publications that sell for top dollar to cultists.

The real tragedy here is that no matter how good the information, results or
good experiences that result, almost anybody who uses these methods are
thought of as cultists, due to the swarmy marketing and guru thing. And
that swarmy, carny barker thing effectively removes his material from a lot
of people who could benefit from his body of knowledge.

Another big problem I have with the guru and cult thing is that many of
these Pavel followers do not possess (or desire) the ability to do any kind
of independent research. No wonder that folks who can read and study,
dismiss the pavel information/zombies. There are large numbers of folks out
there who will never evolve beyond pavel.

Quoted message said:

Another book that might be considered a companion is "Super Joints", a
book that focuses on joint health. The two subjects are obviously related
but, just as obvious, they're not the same. A third book is called
"Forced Relaxation" and contains advanced flexibility techniques - I've
never owned or read FR, but work from SJ is part of my daily warmup, and
RIS is what got me doing splits. In your place, I'd say if you feel
creaky, start with SuperJoints, and if not, start with RIS and follow with
SuperJoints at some point or just get the both of them at the same time.
The two books (RIS and SJ) mention exercises from each other and it is
interesting, at least for me, to learn how to use the same movement in the
mornings to warmup and put my joints through a full ROM, while later using
different techniques with some of the same movements to work on improving
flexibility. Links:

This whole thing about a book for this and a book for that is the pavel
marketing machine. Obviously a marketing ploy. If Pavel was remotely
interested in taking care of folks needs, the would write a large,
comprehensive volume that would address all of these needs. That way we
wouldn't have to depend on pavel "interperters" to enlighten us folks in the
real world who would never put up with such [censored].

Again, I have no problem with the information that is being dispensed. I
just find it difficult to use or read if I have to hold my nose at the same
time. Swarmy just doesn't do it for me. My standards are a little higher
than that.

"Lee Michaels" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Here's a bit of history to preface my recommendation. Pavel's first
book on the subject of flexibility was "Beyond Stretching." I
confess it didn't do much for me. If you then read the preface to
the book I recommend for you, "Relax Into Stretch," you'll see he
says that the intervening years taught him what works and what
doesn't, and RIS is the product of that. The focus of RIS is
flexibility.

And that is exactly the reason that a lot of folks find Pavel's
products and marketing so objectionable.

With the understanding that we will likely never see eye to eye on this,
I wade in nonetheless:

The publisher posted a message that Pavel's most recent book, "Enter The
Kettlebell", sold more copies faster than anything Pavel has written to
date. I think that makes it reasonable to pronounce your statement
wrong. I don't know what constitutes "a lot" but clearly "a lot" of
people are very happy to spend their money on what Pavel has to offer
and must not find his materials or the way they're marketed
"objectionable."

I would never, in a million years, market anything of mine the way
DragonDoor markets Pavel, but that's just me. I would also never, in a
million years, presume to suggest that Pavel or DragonDoor do it any
other way - not my call.

Quoted message said:

Here he has an overpriced product that he essentially obsoleted. And
he has a series of overpriced products without any clear distnction
between them. He keeps the obsolete product in the lineup so he can
sell more overpriced "reports".

There is plenty of "clear distinction" between the four books Jason and
I were discussing. To recap: one original replaced by three separate,
distinct, better things, specifics in my message to Jason. Different
purpose to each, works much better for me than the original. I cannot
see why anyone would buy the original and don't understand why it's
still for sale but, hey, I'm not in the publishing business, either.

Quoted message said:

If he sold books, real books, they would be more complete. His stuff
is good enough that he could write one or two good books for a
reasonable price. He could own this market. Instead he creates a
series of minimal information publications that sell for top dollar to
cultists.

It must be an awfully big cult by this time. I think you're going to
have to rethink that one.

Quoted message said:

The real tragedy here is that no matter how good the information,
results or good experiences that result, almost anybody who uses these
methods are thought of as cultists, due to the swarmy marketing and
guru thing. And that swarmy, carny barker thing effectively removes
his material from a lot of people who could benefit from his body of
knowledge.

Thought of by _you_ as cultists, perhaps. Maybe some people think of
_you_ as a cultist. 🙂

Quoted message said:

Another big problem I have with the guru and cult thing is that many
of these Pavel followers do not possess (or desire) the ability to do
any kind of independent research. No wonder that folks who can read
and study, dismiss the pavel information/zombies. There are large
numbers of folks out there who will never evolve beyond pavel.

Pavel's work is based on all kinds of research, most of it Russian. As
Pavel has often explained, with lots of bodies to test on and lots of
time, they seem to have done enough research to figure out what works
and what doesn't, and I think that's just what I'm after. I'm not an
exercise scientist and most people aren't - I want to know what to do to
get stronger and feel better.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Another book that might be considered a companion is "Super Joints",
a book that focuses on joint health. The two subjects are obviously
related but, just as obvious, they're not the same. A third book is
called "Forced Relaxation" and contains advanced flexibility
techniques - I've never owned or read FR, but work from SJ is part of
my daily warmup, and RIS is what got me doing splits. In your place,
I'd say if you feel creaky, start with SuperJoints, and if not, start
with RIS and follow with SuperJoints at some point or just get the
both of them at the same time. The two books (RIS and SJ) mention
exercises from each other and it is interesting, at least for me, to
learn how to use the same movement in the mornings to warmup and put
my joints through a full ROM, while later using different techniques
with some of the same movements to work on improving flexibility.
Links:

This whole thing about a book for this and a book for that is the
pavel marketing machine. Obviously a marketing ploy. If Pavel was
remotely interested in taking care of folks needs, the would write a
large, comprehensive volume that would address all of these needs.
That way we wouldn't have to depend on pavel "interperters" to
enlighten us folks in the real world who would never put up with such
[censored].

Again, I have no problem with the information that is being dispensed.
I just find it difficult to use or read if I have to hold my nose at
the same time. Swarmy just doesn't do it for me. My standards are a
little higher than that.

#1, No one is asking you to buy anything, and from what I understand,
some of these things are starting to appear in local libraries where you
can read them for free. (Someone told me Power To The People! is now in
their local library.)

#2, Pavel has a publisher and I don't think it's fair to assign blame
for a marketing approach you don't like solely to an author in this case
or in any case.

Last but not least, one should not project one's value upon other
people. I, for one, although I consider myself a serious follower of
things related to strength and fitness, couldn't make a go of it for
myself with the information in Pavel's earlier book, "Beyond
Stretching," but once I read "Relax Into Stretch," I got 90% of the way
to a full side split in the space of six months. To me, the new,
improved, and more expensive products are better - I spent the same
money on the first book and didn't get much use out of it. Sure, it was
cheaper, but if cheaper doesn't work for me, then it's no bargain, is
it? Or maybe I'm just stupid and too many pages in a book confuse me -
I dunno ...

You really are entitled to your opinion - I just don't get the
hostility. I mean, I feel pretty hostile/angry/disappointed/whatever
towards a lot of what I see on TV these days, so I just don't watch it
and that's the end of that. I must be the only person in the US who's
never seen American Idol or Survivor. What's wrong with you just not
buying one of Pavel's book?

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Lee Michaels said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Here's a bit of history to preface my recommendation. Pavel's
first book on the subject of flexibility was "Beyond Stretching."
I confess it didn't do much for me. If you then read the preface
to the book I recommend for you, "Relax Into Stretch," you'll see
he says that the intervening years taught him what works and what
doesn't, and RIS is the product of that. The focus of RIS is
flexibility.

And that is exactly the reason that a lot of folks find Pavel's
products and marketing so objectionable.

Here he has an overpriced product that he essentially obsoleted. And
he has a series of overpriced products without any clear distnction
between them. He keeps the obsolete product in the lineup so he can
sell more overpriced "reports".

If he sold books, real books, they would be more complete. His stuff
is good enough that he could write one or two good books for a
reasonable price. He could own this market. Instead he creates a
series of minimal information publications that sell for top dollar
to cultists.

I would certainly agree that I would prefer it if Pavel sold one Pavel
Omnibus textbook with up to date information on kbells, stretching,
and whatever else he writes about. However, I am quite positive that
I'll get my money's worth out of the one Pavel book that I currently
have. Heck, I'll probably even purchase another of his books. Yes,
it irks me a bit that I am paying top dollar for a "report," but I pay
more for a month's worth of cable television. Aside from the "World's
Strongest Man" reruns I have yet to see something on TV that is likely
to help me get stronger.

Strength training is my hobby. If I took up golf I could expect to
spend $35 on a single round of golf. Because of that I don't think
that Pavel's price is particularly unreasonable. I can hardly be
considered a cultist. I've only owned a kbell for two days. I just
wanted something heavy that I could use at the office.

The bottom line is that Pavel happens to have books on subjects that I
am interested in. If you could suggest a book on basic kettlebell
technique that is less expensive than Pavel's while still covering the
bases then I am all ears. Likewise I happen to be in the market for a
book on stretching. Pavel happens to have several books on the
subject one of which appears to be very good. Now, I could just start
trying random stretching books (there are a million of those), or I
could just buy Pavel's book and get to stretching. Sure, the price of
Pavel's "report" is relatively steep, but his is a niche market. Most
books on flexibility assume that you've never lifted anything heavier
than a fork. Pavel is writing to an audience that he assumes lifts
heavy stuff on a regular basis. That and the fact that Steve vouches
for the book is good enough for me.

Quoted message said:

The real tragedy here is that no matter how good the information,
results or good experiences that result, almost anybody who uses
these methods are thought of as cultists, due to the swarmy
marketing and guru thing. And that swarmy, carny barker thing
effectively removes his material from a lot of people who could
benefit from his body of knowledge.

If Pavel's information is good (and it appears to be pretty solid to
me) then what do I care about the marketing? If it wasn't for the
marketing I probably wouldn't have the information...

Quoted message said:

Another big problem I have with the guru and cult thing is that many
of these Pavel followers do not possess (or desire) the ability to
do any kind of independent research. No wonder that folks who can
read and study, dismiss the pavel information/zombies. There are
large numbers of folks out there who will never evolve beyond pavel.

And? From what I have heard Pavel's "Power to the People" stresses
basic compound lifts like the deadlift, the "Russian Kettlebell
Challenge" covers high speed, high volume, high rep work with the
kbell, and Pavel's other books cover maintaining flexibility and other
important aspects of maintaining a "functional" body. You could
certainly do worse than become a Pavel disciple. No one has time to
learn everything. You and I happen to be interested in this topic to
the extent that we are always researching and experimenting, but some
people just want to get in better shape. Pavel provides a pretty
solid set of tools to get you there.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Another book that might be considered a companion is "Super
Joints", a book that focuses on joint health. The two subjects are
obviously related but, just as obvious, they're not the same. A
third book is called "Forced Relaxation" and contains advanced
flexibility techniques - I've never owned or read FR, but work from
SJ is part of my daily warmup, and RIS is what got me doing splits.
In your place, I'd say if you feel creaky, start with SuperJoints,
and if not, start with RIS and follow with SuperJoints at some
point or just get the both of them at the same time. The two books
(RIS and SJ) mention exercises from each other and it is
interesting, at least for me, to learn how to use the same movement
in the mornings to warmup and put my joints through a full ROM,
while later using different techniques with some of the same
movements to work on improving flexibility. Links:

This whole thing about a book for this and a book for that is the
pavel marketing machine. Obviously a marketing ploy. If Pavel was
remotely interested in taking care of folks needs, the would write a
large, comprehensive volume that would address all of these
needs. That way we wouldn't have to depend on pavel "interperters"
to enlighten us folks in the real world who would never put up with
such [censored].

Some things are hard to learn from books. I read a lot about sailing
when I was a kid, but it wasn't until I actually got a boat that I
started to actually learn. Likewise, despite the fact that I have
watched quite a bit of video, read plenty of tutorials, and practiced
diligently I still am very likely to pay someone to give me pointers
on the Olympic lifts. I have even looked into a kbell instructor,
though I don't know if I will actually sign up for a class. A kbell
represents a non-trivial amount of weight that is generally used in a
very ballistic manner. A little bit of instruction could potentially
stave off a lot of problems.

Quoted message said:

Again, I have no problem with the information that is being
dispensed. I just find it difficult to use or read if I have to hold
my nose at the same time. Swarmy just doesn't do it for me. My
standards are a little higher than that.

Honestly, I have a hard time disagreeing with you. I was expecting
more from "The Russian Kettlebell Challenge." My first impression was
that it was barely on par with Dan John's free ebook. Of course, I
liked Dan John's free ebook so much that I donated money to him, and I
don't do that sort of thing. So "on par" with Dan's book is not such
a bad thing. Once I started comparing the price I paid for Pavel's
book to some of the things that I would spend money on if I had some
other hobby it didn't seem like such a big deal anymore.

Jason

Steve Freides said:

"Jason Earl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve Freides said:

"Jason Earl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Yesterday I just got my copy of the new kettlebell manifesto,
"Enter The Kettlebell" - haven't opened it yet, also ordered the
DVD, will report once I get some time with either. (Not likely
soon as my wife's 86-year-old father is in the hospital with an
apparently inoperable heart condition.)

I am sorry to hear about your father-in-law. .

Thanks.

After a bit of googling on "Enter the Kettlebell" it appears that it
is a followup to "The Russian Kettlebell Challenge." Heck, I wish I
would have known about it two weeks ago. It is probably the book to
get at this point.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I look forward to hearing what you have to say about the book

So far I haven't even opened the cover - been on the phone w/ my
wife's parents and doctors trying to decide if stents or bypass,
complicated by the fact that we just found out his cardiologist
recommended bypass seven years ago but they got one opinion from one
surgeon who didn't want to do it because of my father-in-laws age.
Now he's seven years older and the cardiologist _still_ thinks he
should have the bypass surgery, and my in-laws still don't want to.
You can pick your friends, you can pick your nose, but you can't
pick your family. 🙂 And trying to get some work done and some
exercise in as well.

I don't envy you. That sounds like a bad situation all around.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am also interested in hearing which of Pavel's stretching books
you would recommend.

Here's a bit of history to preface my recommendation. Pavel's first
book on the subject of flexibility was "Beyond Stretching." I
confess it didn't do much for me. If you then read the preface to
the book I recommend for you, "Relax Into Stretch," you'll see he
says that the intervening years taught him what works and what
doesn't, and RIS is the product of that. The focus of RIS is
flexibility.

Got it. "Beyond Stretching" not so good. "Relax Into Stretch" good.

Quoted message said:

Another book that might be considered a companion is "Super Joints",
a book that focuses on joint health. The two subjects are obviously
related but, just as obvious, they're not the same. A third book is
called "Forced Relaxation" and contains advanced flexibility
techniques - I've never owned or read FR, but work from SJ is part
of my daily warmup, and RIS is what got me doing splits. In your
place, I'd say if you feel creaky, start with SuperJoints, and if
not, start with RIS and follow with SuperJoints at some point or
just get the both of them at the same time. The two books (RIS and
SJ) mention exercises from each other and it is interesting, at
least for me, to learn how to use the same movement in the mornings
to warmup and put my joints through a full ROM, while later using
different techniques with some of the same movements to work on
improving flexibility. Links:

Relax Into Stretch: http://www.kbnj.com/ris.htm
Super Joints: http://www.kbnj.com/sj.htm

My next purchase is going to be Dan John's "From the Ground Up" DVD,
but I will probably purchase the RIS/SJ combo after that. As an
alternative to Pavel's stuff I was considering the "Magnificent
Mobility" DVD. Anyone here tried that?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> As I said before, I am very excited about my new toy. Even after
> just one day of playing with it I can tell that it is precisely
> what I was looking for. As a note to other folks that might be
> interested in working with a kbell don't attempt your first
> windmill after exhausting yourself with swings, cleans, and
> military presses 🙂.

There is an article on my site about planning kb workouts, with
the general guideline being to do strength moves before speed
moves. That's opposite of barbell work but, in the case of the
kb, the speed moves are usually for high-ish reps while the
strength moves are not, so you want to be fresh for presses and
windmills before moving on to cleans, swings, snatches, and the
like. If you're doing all these, a good order might be press,
windmill (end of strength/"grinds" section of your workout),
[censored], clean, swing (end of "ballistics" section of your
workout).

Yes, I read that (after scaring myself thoroughly). In retrospect
I must admit that I should have realized that it was foolish to
attempt an esoteric new lift that involved hoisting 24kg above my
head when I was less than absolutely fresh, but learning the lifts
was fun 🙂. I was simply following along in the book...

If it makes you feel any better, I've never bonked myself on the
head with a kettlebell but I've gotten close once or twice, and I
got as close as I've ever gotten just yesterday. Was trying a
two-kb turkish getup that, suffice it to say, didn't get up.

A bit of adrenaline every now and again is good for the soul.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As an aside, I would highly recommend Steve's site (www.kbnj.com)
to anyone interested in starting with kettlebells. Steve's site
really should be the preface to Pavel's book.

There are plenty of good kettlebell resources out there but thank
you.

Yes, there are plenty of good kbell resources, and if I hadn't read
your stuff here in mfw I might well have skipped over your site
completely. However, your article on which kbell to buy and your
article on planning workouts should be included in any basic kbell
primer, and they aren't in Pavel's. That's precisely the sort of
thing that someone new to kbells needs to know.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This morning I am even more convinced that a kettlebell was a good
idea. I have been taking a break from work every hour or so to
practice kbell swings. My plan is to keep track of how many I do in a
day and then try and increase the number every day for a week or so.
None of the short workouts really feels like it is that much work, but
I can already tell that by the end of the day the mini workouts are
going to add up.

Yup.

Quoted message said:

As expected, my buddies at work are perplexed by my new toy. They
are convinced I am crazy.

I'm not sure any regular participant in mfw is anything but crazy.

That's an excellent point.

Jason

"Jason Earl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve Freides said:

"Jason Earl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> writes:

> "Jason Earl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

<snip>

> Yesterday I just got my copy of the new kettlebell manifesto,
> "Enter The Kettlebell" - haven't opened it yet, also ordered the
> DVD, will report once I get some time with either. (Not likely
> soon as my wife's 86-year-old father is in the hospital with an
> apparently inoperable heart condition.)

I am sorry to hear about your father-in-law. .

Thanks.

After a bit of googling on "Enter the Kettlebell" it appears that it
is a followup to "The Russian Kettlebell Challenge." Heck, I wish I
would have known about it two weeks ago. It is probably the book to
get at this point.

-snip-

I think you're right - I didn't hear anything about it before it was
released, and I guess we had our earlier conversation before the DD
announcement. They really do have 100% guarantee - email
[email hidden] and ask if you can exchange the RKC for the new
one. Tell Dennis I sent you. 🙂

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Steve Freides said:

"Jason Earl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

After a bit of googling on "Enter the Kettlebell" it appears that it
is a followup to "The Russian Kettlebell Challenge." Heck, I wish I
would have known about it two weeks ago. It is probably the book to
get at this point.

-snip-

I think you're right - I didn't hear anything about it before it was
released, and I guess we had our earlier conversation before the DD
announcement. They really do have 100% guarantee - email
[email hidden] and ask if you can exchange the RKC for the
new one. Tell Dennis I sent you. 🙂

No worries Steve. If DragonDoor hasn't shifted their marketing policy
on their website how in the world are you supposed to know any
different. It's not like Lee is right and Pavel really is a cult
leader with some sort of mind control power.

As I said before, I am fundamentally happy with the book. I like the
Russian Comrade schtick, and the information on how to do the various
lifts appears to be very complete. I am certainly not going through
the trouble of getting the book replaced with something else. I still
haven't attempted a side press (or anything pass the windmill for that
matter). I am not about to give up the book even for a few days until
I have learned all the lifts in it 🙂.

The bottom line is that I am loving my kettlebell, and I am happy with
my purchase. Relax comrade. Think of it as another chance to sell me
some Pavel gear (I will use your affiliate link, of course). Don't
worry, I can afford to spend the money. I consider the information to
be more than worth the price. If you didn't live on the other side of
the country I would sign up for one of your classes. I don't have any
problems at all dropping money into the pockets of helpful people.

Jason

DZ said:

Steve Freides said:

Jason Earl said:

My copy of "The Russian Kettlebell Challenge" by Pavel Tsatsouline
arrived yesterday, and my 24kg kettlebell arrived today, and I am very
excited about my cool new toy. One thing is certain my girya (err,
kettlebell) is going to freak out my co-workers. I can't wait to take
the thing into the office tomorrow.
I liked the Russian Comrade schtick

...

Quoted message said:

Yesterday I just got my copy of the new kettlebell manifesto, "Enter The
Kettlebell" - haven't opened it yet, also ordered the DVD, will report
once I get some time with either.

All foreign born citizens currently living in westernalized countries
are advised to stay away from that stuff. Some things they check
during ze visa and citizenship interviews are

"Do you own kettlebells and/or any manifestos?"

and

"Have you ever called your buddies comrades?"

If any of these are Yes, or if you don't pass the rabies probe test
(and in fact, affirmative replies are highly correlated with the
positive test results), then man your sooo deported.

Nyet, comrade! The girya is like mega-trendy. It's just the thing to
supplement one's passé regimen of Pilates and cardio kickboxing!

Lee Michaels said:

Another big problem I have with the guru and cult thing is that many of
these Pavel followers do not possess (or desire) the ability to do any kind
of independent research. No wonder that folks who can read and study,
dismiss the pavel information/zombies. There are large numbers of folks out
there who will never evolve beyond pavel.

Hey, Dmitri! What is the Russian term for "hive weasels"?

"Jason Earl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve Freides said:

"Jason Earl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

After a bit of googling on "Enter the Kettlebell" it appears that it
is a followup to "The Russian Kettlebell Challenge." Heck, I wish I
would have known about it two weeks ago. It is probably the book to
get at this point.

-snip-

I think you're right - I didn't hear anything about it before it was
released, and I guess we had our earlier conversation before the DD
announcement. They really do have 100% guarantee - email
[email hidden] and ask if you can exchange the RKC for the
new one. Tell Dennis I sent you. 🙂

No worries Steve. If DragonDoor hasn't shifted their marketing policy
on their website how in the world are you supposed to know any
different. It's not like Lee is right and Pavel really is a cult
leader with some sort of mind control power.

As I said before, I am fundamentally happy with the book. I like the
Russian Comrade schtick, and the information on how to do the various
lifts appears to be very complete. I am certainly not going through
the trouble of getting the book replaced with something else. I still
haven't attempted a side press (or anything pass the windmill for that
matter). I am not about to give up the book even for a few days until
I have learned all the lifts in it 🙂.

The bottom line is that I am loving my kettlebell, and I am happy with
my purchase. Relax comrade. Think of it as another chance to sell me
some Pavel gear (I will use your affiliate link, of course). Don't
worry, I can afford to spend the money. I consider the information to
be more than worth the price. If you didn't live on the other side of
the country I would sign up for one of your classes. I don't have any
problems at all dropping money into the pockets of helpful people.

Jason

All OK w/ me, Jason. A word on the windmill - most people can't get
this one for a long time. The only people I've seen get it right away
are those with good hamstring flexibility, the kind that can squat ATG
and still keep a flat back, can do a conventional DL with a flat back,
etc. Typically it's either people with a yoga background or
powerlifters, I've found. Most "gym bunnies" who do nothing but bench
and squat in the Smith machine can't get close to a proper windmill, and
an improper windmill can get you hurt. It was a [censored] for me to learn
to do them with my back, and I still have to do them slightly
differently on my bad side, but it was worth the effort because it's one
of those "yoga with weights" kind of moves that has a really good
"opening" effect on the hips.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

"Lee Michaels" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Here's a bit of history to preface my recommendation. Pavel's first

book

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on the subject of flexibility was "Beyond Stretching." I confess it
didn't do much for me. If you then read the preface to the book I
recommend for you, "Relax Into Stretch," you'll see he says that the
intervening years taught him what works and what doesn't, and RIS is the
product of that. The focus of RIS is flexibility.

And that is exactly the reason that a lot of folks find Pavel's products

and

Quoted message said:

marketing so objectionable.

Here he has an overpriced product that he essentially obsoleted. And he

has

Quoted message said:

a series of overpriced products without any clear distnction between them.
He keeps the obsolete product in the lineup so he can sell more overpriced
"reports".

If he sold books, real books, they would be more complete. His stuff is

good

Quoted message said:

enough that he could write one or two good books for a reasonable price.

He

Quoted message said:

could own this market. Instead he creates a series of minimal information
publications that sell for top dollar to cultists.

The real tragedy here is that no matter how good the information, results

or

Quoted message said:

good experiences that result, almost anybody who uses these methods are
thought of as cultists, due to the swarmy marketing and guru thing. And
that swarmy, carny barker thing effectively removes his material from a

lot

Quoted message said:

of people who could benefit from his body of knowledge.

Another big problem I have with the guru and cult thing is that many of
these Pavel followers do not possess (or desire) the ability to do any

kind

Quoted message said:

of independent research. No wonder that folks who can read and study,
dismiss the pavel information/zombies. There are large numbers of folks

out

Quoted message said:

there who will never evolve beyond pavel.

Quoted message said:

Another book that might be considered a companion is "Super Joints", a
book that focuses on joint health. The two subjects are obviously

related

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but, just as obvious, they're not the same. A third book is called
"Forced Relaxation" and contains advanced flexibility techniques - I've
never owned or read FR, but work from SJ is part of my daily warmup, and
RIS is what got me doing splits. In your place, I'd say if you feel
creaky, start with SuperJoints, and if not, start with RIS and follow

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

SuperJoints at some point or just get the both of them at the same time.
The two books (RIS and SJ) mention exercises from each other and it is
interesting, at least for me, to learn how to use the same movement in

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mornings to warmup and put my joints through a full ROM, while later

using

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

different techniques with some of the same movements to work on

improving

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

flexibility. Links:

This whole thing about a book for this and a book for that is the pavel
marketing machine. Obviously a marketing ploy. If Pavel was remotely
interested in taking care of folks needs, the would write a large,
comprehensive volume that would address all of these needs. That way we
wouldn't have to depend on pavel "interperters" to enlighten us folks in

the

Quoted message said:

real world who would never put up with such [censored].

Again, I have no problem with the information that is being dispensed. I
just find it difficult to use or read if I have to hold my nose at the

same

Quoted message said:

time. Swarmy just doesn't do it for me. My standards are a little higher
than that.

Just download all his stuff using your favorite peer2peer program (not that
I condone that tho!)
Here's a short list to get you started:
From Russia with tough love.pdf
Beyond Stretching.avi
Beyond Stretching2.avi
Bullet Proof Abs.pdf
Naked Warrior.pdf
Power To The People Part1.pdf (also Part2 & Part3)
Relax Into Stretching.pdf
Russian Kettlebell Challenge.pdf
Super Joints.pdf
Forced Relaxation part1.avi
Forced Relaxation part2.avi
Martial Power.avi
Power.To.The.People.Part1.pdf
Power.To.The.People.Part2.pdf
Power.To.The.People.Part3.pdf

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> writes:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

All OK w/ me, Jason. A word on the windmill - most people can't get
this one for a long time. The only people I've seen get it right
away are those with good hamstring flexibility, the kind that can
squat ATG and still keep a flat back, can do a conventional DL with
a flat back, etc. Typically it's either people with a yoga
background or powerlifters, I've found. Most "gym bunnies" who do
nothing but bench and squat in the Smith machine can't get close to
a proper windmill, and an improper windmill can get you hurt. It
was a [censored] for me to learn to do them with my back, and I still
have to do them slightly differently on my bad side, but it was
worth the effort because it's one of those "yoga with weights" kind
of moves that has a really good "opening" effect on the hips.

I am hoping that my problems with the windmill had more to do with
fatigue and lack of coordination than lack of flexibility, but we'll
see. I'm not trying windmills today. I spent a good portion of today
demonstrating swings and cleans to co-workers.

Jason

Spammers_Should_Be_Shot said:

Lee Michaels said:

This whole thing about a book for this and a book for that is the pavel
marketing machine. Obviously a marketing ploy. If Pavel was remotely
interested in taking care of folks needs, the would write a large,
comprehensive volume that would address all of these needs. That way we
wouldn't have to depend on pavel "interperters" to enlighten us folks in
the
real world who would never put up with such [censored].

Again, I have no problem with the information that is being dispensed. I
just find it difficult to use or read if I have to hold my nose at the
same
time. Swarmy just doesn't do it for me. My standards are a little higher
than that.

Just download all his stuff using your favorite peer2peer program (not that
I condone that tho!)
Here's a short list to get you started:
From Russia with tough love.pdf
Beyond Stretching.avi
Beyond Stretching2.avi
Bullet Proof Abs.pdf
Naked Warrior.pdf
Power To The People Part1.pdf (also Part2 & Part3)
Relax Into Stretching.pdf
Russian Kettlebell Challenge.pdf
Super Joints.pdf
Forced Relaxation part1.avi
Forced Relaxation part2.avi
Martial Power.avi
Power.To.The.People.Part1.pdf
Power.To.The.People.Part2.pdf
Power.To.The.People.Part3.pdf

I think Pavel has some of his old KGB buddies looking for you.