Kessler Positive!

Cobblestones said:

I think Kessler's result is interesting (the 85:1 ratio) and it got me thinking. Could it be that Landis used blood doping on the eve of his solo ride with blood taken while he was on a testosteron trip? Assume that when he 'donated' the blood (say 0.5 liters) he had a T/E ratio as Kessler (make it 100:1 to keep the numbers simple). Then he reinjected his blood and thereby adds it to what's in his body already (say 5 liters). Assume further that the blood already in his body had a T/E ratio of 3:1 (somewhat elevated, but safely below the limit). Simple arithmetic shows that the total volume of blood (now 5.5 liters) will have a ratio of about 11.8/1. Voila

Is that a possibility? Could it have worked this way? I'm a noob when it comes to physiology and blood chemistry, so feel free to poke holes.

Btw. I don't want to start a heated discussion whether he did it or not. I'm only interested if it could possibly happened that way from a scientific point of view.

The Landis case is a sorry joke. His doping dossiers ARE NOT AVAILABLE and have been destroyed by now.

Weekly injections of:
thyroid steroids
insulin (daily)
Androgel cream (daily applications)
blood transfusions of EPO & testosterone plasma (for key stages)

all combined for a 'mixed view' test.

Roid Landis was the Barbaro of cycling.

Doctor.House said:

The Landis case is a sorry joke. His doping dossiers ARE NOT AVAILABLE and have been destroyed by now.

Weekly injections of:
thyroid steroids
insulin (daily)
Androgel cream (daily applications)
blood transfusions of EPO & testosterone plasma (for key stages)

all combined for a 'mixed view' test.

Roid Landis was the Barbaro of cycling.

That might very well be the case, but it doesn't exactly answered the question. Let me therefore rephrase it.

First of all, I think we should assume that whoever dopes does not want to be caught. Hence, during the race itself, one would like to keep all (testable) values below the limits set by WADA (I exclude that someone would gamble on not to be tested as a stage winner).

Second, one should also keep in mind that appearantly everything is done quite professionally, under supervision of team doctors etc. who probably know the individual responses of riders to juice etc. Hence they would know how much to administer during a race to keep the levels below the limits (or to use masking agents).

The question then is, how comes they made a mistake and misjudged the T/E ratio which would show up in a test (and I agree, one should not only look at the ratio, but also check for exogenous testosteron, but that is somewhat beside)? It could of course be a simple mistake such as keeping the T-patch on for too long or something similarly trivial. When I heard about Kessler's result, I thought that in the case of FL, maybe they did blood doping that evening and overlooked the fact that the 'donated' blood was high on testosteron, and sure enough the numbers work out roughly.

Now, the T/E ratio is taken from urine samples. So one would need to know how fast T (and E) goes from the blood into urine. Moreover, it is not clear to me whether T (and E) is only dissolved in blood. If not, the 0.5 liters infused blood with T/E=100:1 would have a much smaller impact on the body T/E ratio. If you know medicine (I take it from your screen name), maybe you can answer these questions.

Cobblestones said:

That might very well be the case, but it doesn't exactly answered the question. Let me therefore rephrase it.

First of all, I think we should assume that whoever dopes does not want to be caught. Hence, during the race itself, one would like to keep all (testable) values below the limits set by WADA (I exclude that someone would gamble on not to be tested as a stage winner).

Second, one should also keep in mind that appearantly everything is done quite professionally, under supervision of team doctors etc. who probably know the individual responses of riders to juice etc. Hence they would know how much to administer during a race to keep the levels below the limits (or to use masking agents).

The question then is, how comes they made a mistake and misjudged the T/E ratio which would show up in a test (and I agree, one should not only look at the ratio, but also check for exogenous testosteron, but that is somewhat beside)? It could of course be a simple mistake such as keeping the T-patch on for too long or something similarly trivial. When I heard about Kessler's result, I thought that in the case of FL, maybe they did blood doping that evening and overlooked the fact that the 'donated' blood was high on testosteron, and sure enough the numbers work out roughly.

Now, the T/E ratio is taken from urine samples. So one would need to know how fast T (and E) goes from the blood into urine. Moreover, it is not clear to me whether T (and E) is only dissolved in blood. If not, the 0.5 liters infused blood with T/E=100:1 would have a much smaller impact on the body T/E ratio. If you know medicine (I take it from your screen name), maybe you can answer these questions.

They all dope. GC riders at massive levels to include cow blood.

The entire show is corrupt. No need to audit all of the various moving parts. IOC, ASO, UCI, Team, Sponsors are all involved in doping to some extent.

The only surprise is that ASO & UCI did not cover up the Landis doping catch.

You were aware that Roid Landis' 'positive test from stage 17' was NOT reported to the media until well AFTER the podium presentations of stage 21. (the non cycling fans assumed Roid won--fair n square)

This from a freak show that bragged that 189 riders PASSED their drug tests with 24 hours of taking them.

How can 189 riders be drug tested (so-called) and negative results posted in 24 hours?---yet Landis, Hamilton, Perez, Kessler take weeks. And Ulrich, Basso never get caught?

The science is the simple part---the FIXES are the political mystery.

What do people think Kessler will do?

It seems his best strategy would be to admit to doping and cry some crocodile tears. He could ask Millar for some tips. 😄 Germany seems so anti-dope would he be able to get on a German Pro Continental team after two years?

Cobblestones said:

I think Kessler's result is interesting (the 85:1 ratio) and it got me thinking. Could it be that Landis used blood doping on the eve of his solo ride with blood taken while he was on a testosteron trip? Assume that when he 'donated' the blood (say 0.5 liters) he had a T/E ratio as Kessler (make it 100:1 to keep the numbers simple). Then he reinjected his blood and thereby adds it to what's in his body already (say 5 liters). Assume further that the blood already in his body had a T/E ratio of 3:1 (somewhat elevated, but safely below the limit). Simple arithmetic shows that the total volume of blood (now 5.5 liters) will have a ratio of about 11.8/1. Voila

Is that a possibility? Could it have worked this way? I'm a noob when it comes to physiology and blood chemistry, so feel free to poke holes.

Btw. I don't want to start a heated discussion whether he did it or not. I'm only interested if it could possibly happened that way from a scientific point of view.

There was someone that was caught that way. I believe it was EPO from the transfused blood.

Your hypothesis is a lot more logical than a patch before stage 17 since testosterone would be more effective if used for the training regimen.

jhuskey said:

That sucks! I like Kessler he always seemed to have a lot of heart regardless.

sddd

When is he coming back ?

jhuskey said:

That sucks! I like Kessler he always seemed to have a lot of heart regardless.

wwee