Just got back from a meeting..

John Tomlinson said:

...with a road engineer and the County Cycling officer. The meeting
was to discuss proposals to modify a road near my place of work.
Sadly, the road has seen an increase in traffic from 3000 cars per day
to 5000 thousand cars a year in a 2 year period. The road is a single
carriage way that has now become a rat run to avoid a roundabout on
the dual carriage way A12; the roundabout had traffic lights installed
18 months ago.

The proposal is to add a footway which reduces the overall carriage
width to 6 metres. This 6 metres will then be divided into two 1.5m
advisory cycle lanes either side and a single 3m carriage way down the
middle. The idea is that drivers use the road as they would a single
track country lane and use the advisory cycle lanes to pass on coming
vehicles - providing there are no cyclists using the cycle lane.
Signing will indicate that cyclist and have priority.

Sounds like a frickin' nightmare. I would resist this at all costs.
Cyclists will just get squashed because car drivers will ignore the signs.

John Tomlinson said:

....with a road engineer and the County Cycling officer. The meeting
was to discuss proposals to modify a road near my place of work.
Sadly, the road has seen an increase in traffic from 3000 cars per day
to 5000 thousand cars a year in a 2 year period. The road is a single
carriage way that has now become a rat run to avoid a roundabout on
the dual carriage way A12; the roundabout had traffic lights installed
18 months ago.

The proposal is to add a footway which reduces the overall carriage
width to 6 metres. This 6 metres will then be divided into two 1.5m
advisory cycle lanes either side and a single 3m carriage way down the
middle. The idea is that drivers use the road as they would a single
track country lane and use the advisory cycle lanes to pass on coming
vehicles - providing there are no cyclists using the cycle lane.
Signing will indicate that cyclist and have priority.

At the end of the road there is a cross-roads. The proposal here is to
put cycle tracks around the junction - if you can picture this, it
forms a celtic cross with the road forming the cross and the cycle
tracks forming the ring around the cross.

Personnally I will not be using the cycle lanes around the cross roads
and I made this clear at the meeting but I was told that these lanes
were intended for the more timid cyclists.

The scheme is going ahead after the Easter period so the meeting could
not really make any significant changes.

I just thought I would share these plans with the group. I would be
particularly interested if any one has any experienced of similar
schemes with a 3m wide road and cycle lanes.

John T.

Not exactly but Cromwell Road in Cambridge has a cycle lane down one
side with regular islands separating it from a single track carriageway
with a direction priority. Its lethal in my experience because cars
drive down the carriageway until they are close to an approaching car
and then they dive sideways into the cycle lane to pass each other.
When they do that they pay little attention to what is in the cycle lane
and usually do so while trying to maintain their normal 35mph speed.

Picture and some comment at
http://www.camcycle.org.uk/newsletters/30/article20.html

Another comment from another issue:
"I have often found the narrowings hazardous, and have witnessed (and
participated in) a number of near misses as cars overtake cyclists and
then pull straight across the cycle lane in front of them to give
priority to an oncoming car."

Tony

John Tomlinson said:

The proposal is to add a footway which reduces the overall carriage
width to 6 metres. This 6 metres will then be divided into two 1.5m
advisory cycle lanes either side and a single 3m carriage way down the
middle. The idea is that drivers use the road as they would a single
track country lane and use the advisory cycle lanes to pass on coming
vehicles - providing there are no cyclists using the cycle lane.
Signing will indicate that cyclist and have priority.

Sounds a recipe for disaster to me, to put it mildly.
In fact, I'll put it strongly. Someone is going to die over this.

Quoted message said:

The proposal is to add a footway which reduces the overall carriage
width to 6 metres. This 6 metres will then be divided into two 1.5m
advisory cycle lanes either side and a single 3m carriage way down the
middle. The idea is that drivers use the road as they would a single
track country lane and use the advisory cycle lanes to pass on coming
vehicles - providing there are no cyclists using the cycle lane.
Signing will indicate that cyclist and have priority.

This sounds lethal. There is a section of road nearby that is similar,
although not identical; there is one motor vehicle lane each way, but
they are very narrow - as narrow as a car. So, whenever anything wider
than a car comes the other way, drivers swerve into the cycle lane
without checking for cycles. If the road is particularly busy (although
yours doesn't sound that) they just straddle the bike lane as well the
entire length of the road.

Quoted message said:

At the end of the road there is a cross-roads. The proposal here is to
put cycle tracks around the junction - if you can picture this, it
forms a celtic cross with the road forming the cross and the cycle
tracks forming the ring around the cross.

This sounds even worse. Motorists will negotiate the central cross and
accelerate away, not looking for (possibly not expecting) cross traffic
a few yards away. I can see the situation will arise where a motorist
spots a slightly marginal gap in the motor traffic he/she must pull
into, and puts his/her foot down to squeeze into that gap - and floors
the cyclist crossing just ahead.

r.

"John Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The proposal is to add a footway which reduces the overall carriage
width to 6 metres. This 6 metres will then be divided into two 1.5m
advisory cycle lanes either side and a single 3m carriage way down the
middle. The idea is that drivers use the road as they would a single
track country lane and use the advisory cycle lanes to pass on coming
vehicles - providing there are no cyclists using the cycle lane.
Signing will indicate that cyclist and have priority.

At the end of the road there is a cross-roads. The proposal here is to
put cycle tracks around the junction - if you can picture this, it
forms a celtic cross with the road forming the cross and the cycle
tracks forming the ring around the cross.

Sounds *lethal*, truly *lethal* :-(

Does the county cycling officer actually do any proper cycling??? Road
engineers are a law unto themselves and from a different planet to the rest
of humanity anyhow. I used to work with some: nice blokes but totally,
totally not of this world as far as being based in reality.

helen s

John Tomlinson said:

The proposal is to add a footway which reduces the overall carriage
width to 6 metres. This 6 metres will then be divided into two 1.5m
advisory cycle lanes either side and a single 3m carriage way down the
middle. The idea is that drivers use the road as they would a single
track country lane and use the advisory cycle lanes to pass on coming
vehicles - providing there are no cyclists using the cycle lane.
Signing will indicate that cyclist and have priority.

I think the road layout sounds interesting but the suggested behaviour
would be dangerous.

I've seen pictures of a road effectively divided into equal thirds;
cycle lane:single lane:cycle lane. The idea being that cars and cyclists
share the advisory lanes until the motorist wants to overtake. Yours
sounds like a similar layout but a rather more scary mode of use.

wafflycat said:

"John Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The proposal is to add a footway which reduces the overall carriage
width to 6 metres. This 6 metres will then be divided into two 1.5m
advisory cycle lanes either side and a single 3m carriage way down the
middle. The idea is that drivers use the road as they would a single
track country lane and use the advisory cycle lanes to pass on coming
vehicles - providing there are no cyclists using the cycle lane.
Signing will indicate that cyclist and have priority.

At the end of the road there is a cross-roads. The proposal here is to
put cycle tracks around the junction - if you can picture this, it
forms a celtic cross with the road forming the cross and the cycle
tracks forming the ring around the cross.

Sounds *lethal*, truly *lethal* :-(

Does the county cycling officer actually do any proper cycling??? Road
engineers are a law unto themselves and from a different planet to the
rest of humanity anyhow. I used to work with some: nice blokes but
totally, totally not of this world as far as being based in reality.

helen s

Why does this sound lethal?

In the Netherlands we have hunderds of kilometers of 80 km roads with
seperate cycling lanes, quite often roads with an overall width of not
more than 4 meters: two 75 centimeters cycling lanes and the remaining
2,5 meters for the carriage lane in the middle. The cycling lanes are
seperated from the carriage way by a white line and cycling lanes have a
red surface. Overall (or maybe better: my) experience is quite good. In
the area where I live, I don't know of any serious accidents on this
kind of roads with cyclists involved. Car drivers (and I am a cyclist
and a car driver) have had to learn how to drive this kind of roads.

Frank Simons

"Frank Simons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

wafflycat said:

Why does this sound lethal?

In the Netherlands we have hunderds of kilometers of 80 km roads with
seperate cycling lanes, quite often roads with an overall width of not
more than 4 meters: two 75 centimeters cycling lanes and the remaining 2,5
meters for the carriage lane in the middle. The cycling lanes are
seperated from the carriage way by a white line and cycling lanes have a
red surface. Overall (or maybe better: my) experience is quite good. In
the area where I live, I don't know of any serious accidents on this kind
of roads with cyclists involved. Car drivers (and I am a cyclist and a car
driver) have had to learn how to drive this kind of roads.

Frank Simons

Ah the Netherlands. Totally different to the UK, where the car is king.
mainland Europe is much more civilised towards cyclists than over here in
uk.tosspotland. Sadly.

Cheers, helen s

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:48:50 -0000, "wafflycat"

wafflesATv21netDOTcoDOTuk said:

Does the county cycling officer actually do any proper cycling???

Yes he does. This is not the first time I have tried to oppose
schemes that the county have but in. Sadly my arguments are always
rebuffed with the response that the schemes are designed for the more
timid cyclists and that I, as a confident cyclist, would not be
obliged to use the facility.

Quoted message said:

Road engineers are a law unto themselves and from a different planet to the rest
of humanity anyhow.

And the Engineer claimed to cycle commute as well. I dont doubt that
this was true as he knew who he had seen on his commute.

John T.

John Tomlinson said:

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:48:50 -0000, "wafflycat"

wafflesATv21netDOTcoDOTuk said:

Does the county cycling officer actually do any proper cycling???

Yes he does. This is not the first time I have tried to oppose
schemes that the county have but in. Sadly my arguments are always
rebuffed with the response that the schemes are designed for the more
timid cyclists

Yet its probably the more timid and less experienced who would come off
worse in a conflict in such a scheme.

Quoted message said:

and that I, as a confident cyclist, would not be
obliged to use the facility.

Eh? What does he expect you to do then?

John B

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:38:41 +0100, Frank Simons wrote in
<[email hidden]>, seen in
uk.rec.cycling:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Why does this sound lethal?

British car drivers.

Quoted message said:

In the Netherlands we have hunderds of kilometers of 80 km roads with
seperate cycling lanes, quite often roads with an overall width of not
more than 4 meters: [...] Car drivers (and I am a cyclist
and a car driver) have had to learn how to drive this kind of roads.

There's the difference. In the UK a significant percentage of car
drivers wouldn't even contemplate changing their driving style just
because the road markings were different..

--
Ross, in Lincoln
Reply-to address will bounce; replace "junk-trap" with "me" for e-mail

John Tomlinson said:

Sadly my arguments are always
rebuffed with the response that the schemes are designed for the more
timid cyclists and that I, as a confident cyclist, would not be
obliged to use the facility.

For various values of 'obliged'.

The vociferous minority will be sure to let you know when you fail to
use whatever farcility is available.

Frank Simons wrote:

I don't know of any serious accidents on this

Quoted message said:

kind of roads with cyclists involved. Car drivers (and I am a cyclist
and a car driver) have had to learn how to drive this kind of roads.

What happens during the learning phase? Using UK drivers as the learners?

--
Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap

Al C-F said:

The vociferous minority will be sure to let you know when you fail to
use whatever farcility is available.

Another point that I made during the meeting.

JT

"John Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:48:50 -0000, "wafflycat"

wafflesATv21netDOTcoDOTuk said:

Does the county cycling officer actually do any proper cycling???

Yes he does. This is not the first time I have tried to oppose
schemes that the county have but in. Sadly my arguments are always
rebuffed with the response that the schemes are designed for the more
timid cyclists and that I, as a confident cyclist, would not be
obliged to use the facility.

Then he has no excuse. He should be put up against a wall and have the
standard urc treatment of mindless morons.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Road engineers are a law unto themselves and from a different planet to
the rest
of humanity anyhow.

And the Engineer claimed to cycle commute as well. I dont doubt that
this was true as he knew who he had seen on his commute.

Then he should have the same done to him.

Can we have an urc wake for the fools?

Cheers, helen s

Quoted message said:

John T.

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:59:18 +0000, John Tomlinson
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

The proposal is to add a footway which reduces the overall carriage
width to 6 metres. This 6 metres will then be divided into two 1.5m
advisory cycle lanes either side and a single 3m carriage way down the
middle. The idea is that drivers use the road as they would a single
track country lane and use the advisory cycle lanes to pass on coming
vehicles - providing there are no cyclists using the cycle lane.
Signing will indicate that cyclist and have priority.

Hmmm. If there were a *lot* of cyclists on this route it might even
work, but the occasional one will mean that drivers treat it as if
cyclists are *never* there and will behave accordingly even if they
are.

Have you spoken to CTC about this?

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

John Tomlinson said:

increase in traffic from 3000 cars per day
to 5000 thousand cars a year

Some would call that a decrease.

Jon

John Tomlinson said:

Quoted message said:

increase in traffic from 3000 cars per day
to 5000 thousand cars a year

and Jon Schneider responded:

Quoted message said:

Some would call that a decrease.

I thought that on first reading, but before I replied I re-read it and
realised that 5000 thousand is actually a very significant increase upon
3000.

I can't help thinking the OP had a typo somewhere, though ;-)

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
<URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

John Tomlinson said:

Al C-F said:

The vociferous minority will be sure to let you know when you fail to
use whatever farcility is available.

Another point that I made during the meeting.

What was the response to this? Personally I think that it should be
clearly publicised that cyclists are *not* obligated to use
farcilities. Better still, let's not bother building them in the
first place.