Jonfon Woss

Martin Bulmer said:

Saw Sheila Hancock & J Woss slagging off cyclists last night, for riding on
pavement, jumping red lights, and generally getting in the way.
I don't do these things, so feel slightly miffed.

As somebody that does occasionally ride a bike, and drive a car, and
ride a motorbike (a lot). I have to agree with them. However, the show
was more in the context of entertainment rather than political argument.

As a percentage of users, cyclists have a very poor showing of courtesy
and road craft compared to any other form of transport. My own
observations certainly confirm a high number of cyclists do not obey
many road rules. In particular traffic lights. And what happened to
looking behind and making sure the way is clear, and indicating, before
passing a parked vehicle?

There are of course a number of organisations and clubs that encourage
better riding, but these can only be a minority in comparison to the
number of bikes on the road. Although a lot of the offenders are also
riding high quality bikes, and wearing decent clothing, so they aren't
all snotty kids on knackered machines either.

--
Andy Hewitt ** FAF#1, (Ex-OSOS#5) - FJ1200 ABS
Honda Civic 16v: Windows free zone (Mac G5 Dual Processor)
http://www.thehewitts.plus.com

Andy Hewitt said:

Martin Bulmer said:

Saw Sheila Hancock & J Woss slagging off cyclists last night, for riding on
pavement, jumping red lights, and generally getting in the way.
I don't do these things, so feel slightly miffed.

As somebody that does occasionally ride a bike, and drive a car, and
ride a motorbike (a lot). I have to agree with them. However, the show
was more in the context of entertainment rather than political argument.

As a percentage of users, cyclists have a very poor showing of courtesy
and road craft compared to any other form of transport.

From TRL 549:

A key finding which should be noted was that, when
commenting on the scenarios it was usually the behaviour
of the cyclist that was criticised – no matter how small the
misdemeanour. Few links were made between the cyclist’s
behaviour and any external influences that could be
affecting their choice of behaviour; i.e. the respondents’
comments indicated that they thought the cyclist’s actions
were inherent and dispositional behaviours. In contrast, the
motorists’ misdemeanours were excused or justified in
terms of the situational influences. As this tendency
seemed to continue across the groups and the individual
depth interviews and was unprompted, it is unlikely that
group dynamics had any significant effect on this finding.
Another overall finding from these scenarios was that
people were not familiar with cycle lanes and advanced
stop lines at traffic lights so they were not commonly
understood. It seemed that implementation of cycle
facilities is accompanied by little publicity, so how the
facilities are to be used is little known.
According to the respondents’ reactions to the scenarios,
the majority of drivers claimed they would behave with
consideration when coming into contact with cyclists
within the different types of situation. How true this was is
hard to say. Perhaps more interesting is the way in which
drivers tended to criticise the behaviour of cyclists before
that of the drivers depicted within each scene. This aligns
with the psychological prediction of targeting of members
of an ‘out group’.

Personally, I find motorists particularly discourteous
towards cyclists. Even basic things like acknowledging
when a cyclist has given way in a 50:50 head-on situation
such as in a narrow street with parked cars; drivers
will signal their acknowlegdement of the consideration
of another driver - but will rarely do so when the
consideration is from a cyclist.

Simon

Martin Bulmer said:

Saw Sheila Hancock & J Woss slagging off cyclists last night, for riding on
pavement, jumping red lights, and generally getting in the way.
I don't do these things, so feel slightly miffed.

--

Martin Bulmer

On todays ride I shocked a pedestrian by slagging of a rider who went
straight through a red light & almost hit her.

Stan Cox

Martin Bulmer said:

Saw Sheila Hancock & J Woss slagging off cyclists last night, for riding on
pavement, jumping red lights, and generally getting in the way.
I don't do these things, so feel slightly miffed.

--

Martin Bulmer

Well, doubtless Sheila Hancock and Jonfon Woss *never* break any road
laws when they are driving whatever it is they drive, and I'm sure they
are fully qualified to make such judgements.

My observations:-

I see many poorly behaved "People on Bikes" (not cyclists IMHO) riding
on pavements, jumping lights and being stealthy at night. I also see a
few (yes, it is fewer) responsible ones.

I see many pooly behaved "People in Cars" breaking speed limits, not
being courteous to other road users (including cyclists), not being
fully in charge of their vehicle, and being aggressive. I also see many
responsible ones.

I see many poorly behaved coach drivers - all of them from Carters
Coaches in Litcham - they are a complete menace around here.

I see some poorly behaved HGV drivers, but only a few - most are well
behaved - especially towards responsible cyclists.

All "People in BMW"'s are a menace, and should be put down.

But of course, all this is from experiences in deepest Norfolk. As we
know, the only place of *any* importance on the BBC is London and it's
immediate surroundings; so I guess we need observations from people
around there.

--
Chris

Quoted message said:

I see many poorly behaved coach drivers - all of them from Carters
Coaches in Litcham - they are a complete menace around here.

Wait until you come across a Sanders coach ;-)

Quoted message said:

I see some poorly behaved HGV drivers, but only a few - most are well
behaved - especially towards responsible cyclists.

Jack Richards of Fakenham HGV drivers have always been incredibly courteous to
me, Vernon & Nathan when we are in cyclist mode in these here parts. So much so
that it's noticeable how much better they are than other company drivers. Mind
you, the HGV drivers are, for the most part, okay round here.

Quoted message said:

All "People in BMW"'s are a menace, and should be put down.

Well it does stand for Bl**dy Motorised W*nk*r ;-)

Quoted message said:

But of course, all this is from experiences in deepest Norfolk. As we
know, the only place of *any* importance on the BBC is London and it's
immediate surroundings; so I guess we need observations from people
around there.

Indeed, there is no life outside of London that is of any consequence at all as
far as the meeja is concerned.

Cheers, helen s

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Simon Proven <[email hidden]> wrote:

<Snipped Text>

Quoted message said:

Personally, I find motorists particularly discourteous
towards cyclists. Even basic things like acknowledging
when a cyclist has given way in a 50:50 head-on situation
such as in a narrow street with parked cars; drivers
will signal their acknowlegdement of the consideration
of another driver - but will rarely do so when the
consideration is from a cyclist.

Indeed, although my own observations seem to indicate that general
courtesy is falling, and rarely do you see another road user
acknowledging another anyway.

I can understand the frustration of all parties though, and it's all
caused by a genral lack of road sense, and perhaps training. Where now
do you see kids being taught cycling proficiency? Something I was
involved in the teaching of many years ago. Not only that but I practice
what I preach too.

As a motorist and a motorcyclist, what amazes me with cyclists is the
general lack of self preservation they seem to have. No lights at night,
jumping red lights, weaving between moving cars etc. Whether they are in
the right or wrong is irrelavent when they are squashed under a car.

As a cyclist I am frustrated by general lack of courtesy from motorised
vehicle users. To the extent that I only ride on cycle tracks now.

As a motorcyclist I see bad road craft from all three forms of traffic,
My most common cause of near misses is when filtering through cars, I
often find a cyclist has appeared from between a row of cars - without
looking. This actually happens more often than it does with cars
changing lanes without looking. They then proceed to block the way
without even being aware of my presence.

However, one thing I do notice is the difference between leisure and
commuter traffic. As I commute about 10,000 miles a year by motorcycle,
I have noticed that other commuting motorcyclists are mostly fairly
sensible and well mannered riders. On the other hand, cars and cyclists
tend to be the most bad mannered and outright dangerous at times. I can
only say that having commuted between Luton and St. Albans for 15 years,
and the last year between Durham and Newcastle, I have plenty of
material for observation :-)

I would certainly be the first to agree that leisure motorcyclists are
usually riding badly. As for cars, there's a bit of a mixed bunch there
isn't there. The doddery old gits that are a danger to themselves and
everyone, who always have to go out on a Sunday, or the 'Max Power'
brigade who have to demonstrate their latest tune-up gadget.

Personally I don't believe it's fair to single out any particular group
of road users, they all have needs for improving skills and attitudes.
But, cyclists are the only road users that do not have to take any kind
of formal training before they can use the public roads.

--
Andy Hewitt ** FAF#1, (Ex-OSOS#5) - FJ1200 ABS
Honda Civic 16v: Windows free zone (Mac G5 Dual Processor)
http://www.thehewitts.plus.com

Quoted message said:

Indeed, there is no life outside of London that is of any consequence at
all as
far as the meeja is concerned.

Very true. Have you noticed on the weather forecast when they say "A fine
day tomorrow" and point to the map which shows a sunshine symbol over the
south east but rain everywhere else.

In message <[email hidden]>, Andy Hewitt
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

And what happened to
looking behind and making sure the way is clear, and indicating, before
passing a parked vehicle?

It's got to be a lack of proper training. I'd say that very few cyclists
get any kind of formal training before going out on a road.

And that goes for me, too. I never really thought about what I was doing
on the road on my bike, until after I did my driving test - which was
pretty late in life. I knew enough not to do stupid things like riding
without lights in the dark (although I wasn't totally immune to all
stupid behaviours).

Anyway. After taking the test and joining the ranks of car
owners/drivers, I didn't start cycling regularly again for another five
years. At that point I realised that what I'd learned as a driver was
also very useful to me as a cyclist.

--
congokid
Good restaurants in London? Number one on Google
http://congokid.com

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 11:23:05 +0000 someone who may be
[email hidden] (Andy Hewitt) wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

But, cyclists are the only road users that do not have to take any kind
of formal training before they can use the public roads.

Incorrect.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

Quoted message said:

But, cyclists are the only road users that do not have to take any kind
of formal training before they can use the public roads.

*Beep* - wrong. Pedestrians are road users too and we peds don't have to take
any formal training...

Cheers, helen s
(pedestrian, cyclist & motorist)

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Quoted message said:

I didn't start cycling regularly again for another five
years. At that point I realised that what I'd learned as a driver was
also very useful to me as a cyclist.

I found that what I learned as a cyclist has helped me enormously as a driver.
I cycled long before I learned to drive.

Cheers, helen s

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to get correct one remove fame & fortune
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Andy Hewitt said:

Simon Proven <[email hidden]> wrote:

<Snipped Text>

Quoted message said:

Personally, I find motorists particularly discourteous
towards cyclists. Even basic things like acknowledging
when a cyclist has given way in a 50:50 head-on situation
such as in a narrow street with parked cars; drivers
will signal their acknowlegdement of the consideration
of another driver - but will rarely do so when the
consideration is from a cyclist.

Indeed, although my own observations seem to indicate that general
courtesy is falling, and rarely do you see another road user
acknowledging another anyway.

I can understand the frustration of all parties though, and it's all
caused by a genral lack of road sense, and perhaps training. Where now
do you see kids being taught cycling proficiency? Something I was
involved in the teaching of many years ago. Not only that but I practice
what I preach too.

As a motorist and a motorcyclist, what amazes me with cyclists is the
general lack of self preservation they seem to have. No lights at night,
jumping red lights, weaving between moving cars etc. Whether they are in
the right or wrong is irrelavent when they are squashed under a car.

This sounds like the group theory stuff that the TRL report I was
reading last night: the tendency to view a group as more similar
to each other than they actually are. Even people who both cycle
and drive do it. Because of the tendency to class all cyclists
as the same, it reflects on us all badly - and unfairly.

Quoted message said:

Personally I don't believe it's fair to single out any particular group
of road users, they all have needs for improving skills and attitudes.
But, cyclists are the only road users that do not have to take any kind
of formal training before they can use the public roads.

Whilst not denying that more training for cyclists has to be
a good thing, it is also important to put it into perspective:
the least trained road user group is also the least dangerous
in terms of risk posed to others; the most dangerous groups
to pedestrians, for instance, are among the better trained.
It should not be surprising that more training is required for
road users in charged of the more dangerous vehicles.

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers said:

Quoted message said:

I didn't start cycling regularly again for another five
years. At that point I realised that what I'd learned as a driver was
also very useful to me as a cyclist.

I found that what I learned as a cyclist has helped me enormously as a driver.
I cycled long before I learned to drive.

Me too. I was cycling regularly (having passed no proficiency
test, because I failed for standing on the pedals when going
uphill, which I will still do when necessary) for 5 years before
I did my driving test, including central Glasgow, Manchester,
and Cambridge. On my first driving lesson one of my driving
instructor's comments was that I clearly understood roundabouts.

I should think so - you don't go 5 years without being knocked
off your bike by not understanding roundabouts! 8 years on and
I've still never been knocked off, despite the best attempts
of some drivers.

I'll tell you why there's hypocrisy from motorists: I was waiting
at a mini roundabout near where I live earlier this week, on
the way home from playing football. I counted 8 cars that passed.
Not _one_ went over the roundabout legally. So much for training.

I'd be very surprised if I'd counted 8 bikes passing and saw them
all behaving so arrogantly.

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers said:

Well it does stand for Bl**dy Motorised W*nk*r ;-)

Always used to be "Black Man's Wheels" where I come from.

Simon Proven said:

Personally, I find motorists particularly discourteous
towards cyclists. Even basic things like acknowledging
when a cyclist has given way in a 50:50 head-on situation
such as in a narrow street with parked cars; drivers
will signal their acknowlegdement of the consideration
of another driver - but will rarely do so when the
consideration is from a cyclist.

I'm quite lucky where I work, then. In the evenings I'll very often
pull into a gap in the row of parked cars to let a car coming the other
way pass. They invariably wave their thanks. In the mornings (when I'm
going up the hill and don't want to lose momentum) I make it very clear
that I'm not going to give way. The parked cars are all up the other
side of the road anyway. The vast majority of motorists will pull in,
and most will acknowledge my nod of thanks.

The situation is similar on a road about 500 yards from home, which
forms part of my evening commute but not part of my morning commute.

It's probably significant that both of these roads are quiet roads that
don't really go anywhere. On Saltford High Street (where I work), the
only commuters will be my colleagues, Wessex Water staff and High Street
residents. Baden Road (near home) is a cul-de-sac for motor vehicles,
so it's just residents and cyclists.

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
<URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Simon Proven said:

I was waiting
at a mini roundabout near where I live earlier this week, on
the way home from playing football. I counted 8 cars that passed.
Not _one_ went over the roundabout legally. So much for training.

Does that mean that they all went *around* it?

Pete.

Andy Hewitt said:

As a percentage of users, cyclists have a very poor showing of courtesy
and road craft compared to any other form of transport.

Yesterday, for example, I saw more motorists jump red lights than
cyclists. (OK, I saw one motorist jump a red light and no cyclists - but
it wasn't even a putting-foot-down-on-amber job, it was a
the-lights-went-red-about-a-minute-ago job.)

My own

Quoted message said:

observations certainly confirm a high number of cyclists do not obey
many road rules.

The same is true of all road-users. The sort of people that obey the law
while cycling are the same that will probably obey the law while driving
a car. And vice versa - those that disregard the law while cycling are
likely also to disregard the law when driving a car.

The point is that if you are going to generalise about people, you'd be
more accurate to categorise them as "law breakers" and "non-law
breakers" rather than "cyclists" and "motorists".

In other words, it's a pointless exercise.

Quoted message said:

There are of course a number of organisations and clubs that encourage
better riding, but these can only be a minority in comparison to the
number of bikes on the road.

On the other hand, passing a driving test is a *legal requirement*
before getting behind the wheel of a car, yet if reports are to be
believed...

d.

Peter Connolly said:

Simon Proven said:

I was waiting
at a mini roundabout near where I live earlier this week, on
the way home from playing football. I counted 8 cars that passed.
Not _one_ went over the roundabout legally. So much for training.

Does that mean that they all went *around* it?

It means that none of them crossed their roundabout with their
*left* wheel to the left of the centre of the centre of the
central island.

Martin Bulmer said:

Saw Sheila Hancock & J Woss slagging off cyclists last night, for riding on
pavement, jumping red lights, and generally getting in the way.
I don't do these things, so feel slightly miffed.

--

Martin Bulmer

yes I saw that women (who is she anyway ?) It did infuriate me a little
but so do the cyclists who do what she says. Motorists who break the
rules infuriate me too.