Tonight a program on doping in cycling on Belgian TV. Not very good - Pound got the opportunity to say all his half-truth with nobody conradicting him - and almost nothing new (Emma O'Reilly, Landis, etc.). The only news was what ex-soigneur Jef D'Hont was saying about his Telekom-years (1996-97). For instance he said that Erik Zabel refused to take EPO (I think he was the only one). Bjarne Riis was the exact opposite (surprise, sursprise), but D'Hond also told that once Riis had a hematocrite level of 64 %! Apparently the nickname "Mister 60 %" doesn't give Riis his due. D'Hond also said that Riis was suffering from terrible side effects, like some kind of rheumatism, which was so serious and painful that he hardly move his hands. I think we all agree that a rider who wanted to win the Tour so badly that he was willing to suffer like that, risking his life and his health simultaneously, really deserved to win.
I think we all agree that a rider who wanted to win the Tour so badly that he was willing to suffer like that, risking his life and his health simultaneously, really deserved to win.
Benjo
With all due respect Benjo, I disagree. The rider who would have been best if they were all clean deserved to win. Do you respect Zabel less because he took a different path and didn't risk his health in the same way? (I'm not saying Zabel was a GC contendor)
"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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Tonight a program on doping in cycling on Belgian TV. Not very good -
Pound
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got the opportunity to say all his half-truth with nobody conradicting
him -
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and almost nothing new (Emma O'Reilly, Landis, etc.). The only news was
what
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ex-soigneur Jef D'Hont was saying about his Telekom-years (1996-97). For instance he said that Erik Zabel refused to take EPO (I think he was the only one). Bjarne Riis was the exact opposite (surprise, sursprise), but D'Hond also told that once Riis had a hematocrite level of 64 %!
Apparently
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the nickname "Mister 60 %" doesn't give Riis his due. D'Hond also said
that
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Riis was suffering from terrible side effects, like some kind of
rheumatism,
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which was so serious and painful that he hardly move his hands. I think we all agree that a rider who wanted to win the Tour so badly that he was willing to suffer like that, risking his life and his health
simultaneously,
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really deserved to win.
Benjo
Thats it, Zabel is my hero. I hope that he rides the Sixes for a few more years so that I may have a chance to see him in action.
Tonight a program on doping in cycling on Belgian TV. Not very good - Pound got the opportunity to say all his half-truth with nobody conradicting him - and almost nothing new (Emma O'Reilly, Landis, etc.). The only news was what ex-soigneur Jef D'Hont was saying about his Telekom-years (1996-97). For instance he said that Erik Zabel refused to take EPO (I think he was the only one). Bjarne Riis was the exact opposite (surprise, sursprise), but D'Hond also told that once Riis had a hematocrite level of 64 %! Apparently the nickname "Mister 60 %" doesn't give Riis his due. D'Hond also said that Riis was suffering from terrible side effects, like some kind of rheumatism, which was so serious and painful that he hardly move his hands. I think we all agree that a rider who wanted to win the Tour so badly that he was willing to suffer like that, risking his life and his health simultaneously, really deserved to win.
Benjo
The more I read and hear about Zabel, the more I like the guy.
Riis? Nothing new there. I assume you're being sarcastic.
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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Quoted message said:
Tonight a program on doping in cycling on Belgian TV. Not very good - Pound got the opportunity to say all his half-truth with nobody conradicting him - and almost nothing new (Emma O'Reilly, Landis, etc.). The only news was what ex-soigneur Jef D'Hont was saying about his Telekom-years (1996-97). For instance he said that Erik Zabel refused to take EPO (I think he was the only one). Bjarne Riis was the exact opposite (surprise, sursprise), but D'Hond also told that once Riis had a hematocrite level of 64 %! Apparently the nickname "Mister 60 %" doesn't give Riis his due. D'Hond also said that Riis was suffering from terrible side effects, like some kind of rheumatism, which was so serious and painful that he hardly move his hands. I think we all agree that a rider who wanted to win the Tour so badly that he was willing to suffer like that, risking his life and his health simultaneously, really deserved to win.
Benjo
The more I read and hear about Zabel, the more I like the guy.
Riis? Nothing new there. I assume you're being sarcastic.
Yes, of course, but not quite. I have some grudging admiration for such a burning detremination. Besides, I understand better Riis' uncompromising attitude to everything connected to doping in his own team. I always thought it was rather hypocrite.But it probably isn't. Nobody knows better how dagnerous and destructive the use of products like epo can be.
"Bret" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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benjo maso said:
I think we all agree that a rider who wanted to win the Tour so badly that he was willing to suffer like that, risking his life and his health simultaneously, really deserved to win.
Benjo
With all due respect Benjo, I disagree. The rider who would have been best if they were all clean deserved to win. Do you respect Zabel less because he took a different path and didn't risk his health in the same way? (I'm not saying Zabel was a GC contendor)
What channel was this on? Is this program available online somewhere?
J. Spaceman
benjo maso said:
Tonight a program on doping in cycling on Belgian TV. Not very good - Pound got the opportunity to say all his half-truth with nobody conradicting him - and almost nothing new (Emma O'Reilly, Landis, etc.). The only news was what ex-soigneur Jef D'Hont was saying about his Telekom-years (1996-97). For instance he said that Erik Zabel refused to take EPO (I think he was the only one). Bjarne Riis was the exact opposite (surprise, sursprise), but D'Hond also told that once Riis had a hematocrite level of 64 %! Apparently the nickname "Mister 60 %" doesn't give Riis his due. D'Hond also said that Riis was suffering from terrible side effects, like some kind of rheumatism, which was so serious and painful that he hardly move his hands. I think we all agree that a rider who wanted to win the Tour so badly that he was willing to suffer like that, risking his life and his health simultaneously, really deserved to win.
D'Hond also said that Riis was suffering from terrible side effects, like some kind of rheumatism, which was so serious and painful that he hardly move his hands.> Benjo
Joint pain is a side effect of human growth hormone. When it's used in patient or study populations this is often the reason people discontinue it's use.
"Jason Spaceman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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What channel was this on? Is this program available online somewhere?
I dont know if it's available online. I haven't found it. It was on Canvas and it was called "Een positief verhaal" ("A Positive Story"😉. The `positive' part of the story was that the programme makers demonstrated that Belgian riders in general and Flemish riders in particular are as "clean" as can be.
I dont know if it's available online. I haven't found it. It was on Canvas and it was called "Een positief verhaal" ("A Positive Story"😉. The `positive' part of the story was that the programme makers demonstrated that Belgian riders in general and Flemish riders in particular are as "clean" as can be.
"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:
Quoted message said:
Tonight a program on doping in cycling on Belgian TV. Not very good - Pound got the opportunity to say all his half-truth with nobody conradicting him - and almost nothing new (Emma O'Reilly, Landis, etc.). The only news was what ex-soigneur Jef D'Hont was saying about his Telekom-years (1996-97). For instance he said that Erik Zabel refused to take EPO (I think he was the only one). Bjarne Riis was the exact opposite (surprise, sursprise), but D'Hond also told that once Riis had a hematocrite level of 64 %! Apparently the nickname "Mister 60 %" doesn't give Riis his due. D'Hond also said that Riis was suffering from terrible side effects, like some kind of rheumatism, which was so serious and painful that he hardly move his hands. I think we all agree that a rider who wanted to win the Tour so badly that he was willing to suffer like that, risking his life and his health simultaneously, really deserved to win.
Benjo
I also thought the announcement that Basso rode a Giro while keeping his hematocrit at a constant level was rather remarkable. The program implied this is typical of microdosing EPO.
"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:
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Tonight a program on doping in cycling on Belgian TV. Not very good - Pound got the opportunity to say all his half-truth with nobody conradicting him - and almost nothing new (Emma O'Reilly, Landis, etc.). The only news was what ex-soigneur Jef D'Hont was saying about his Telekom-years (1996-97). For instance he said that Erik Zabel refused to take EPO (I think he was the only one). Bjarne Riis was the exact opposite (surprise, sursprise), but D'Hond also told that once Riis had a hematocrite level of 64 %! Apparently the nickname "Mister 60 %" doesn't give Riis his due. D'Hond also said that Riis was suffering from terrible side effects, like some kind of rheumatism, which was so serious and painful that he hardly move his hands. I think we all agree that a rider who wanted to win the Tour so badly that he was willing to suffer like that, risking his life and his health simultaneously, really deserved to win.
I also thought the announcement that Basso rode a Giro while keeping his hematocrit at a constant level was rather remarkable. The program implied this is typical of microdosing EPO.
It is also typical of not going to the absolute limit. My hematocrit stays between 48 and 49 percent pretty evenly regardless of anything else and unless I'm microdosing on EPO despite my lack of even knowing where I'd buy it I'd say that a steady hematocrit is the normal case and not the unusual.
"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:[email hidden]...
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I also thought the announcement that Basso rode a Giro while keeping his hematocrit at a constant level was rather remarkable. The program implied this is typical of microdosing EPO.
It is also typical of not going to the absolute limit. My hematocrit stays between 48 and 49 percent pretty evenly regardless of anything else and unless I'm microdosing on EPO despite my lack of even knowing where I'd buy it I'd say that a steady hematocrit is the normal case and not the unusual.
Okay, so that tells us everything was kosher for the people who finished the Giro behind you, but we still don't know whether the riders who finished the Giro _ahead_ of you were going hard enough to expect that their hematocrit should have decreased.
It's these subtle points that make the difference between science and guesswork, you know.
<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:
"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:[email hidden]...
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I also thought the announcement that Basso rode a Giro while keeping his hematocrit at a constant level was rather remarkable. The program implied this is typical of microdosing EPO.
It is also typical of not going to the absolute limit. My hematocrit stays between 48 and 49 percent pretty evenly regardless of anything else and unless I'm microdosing on EPO despite my lack of even knowing where I'd buy it I'd say that a steady hematocrit is the normal case and not the unusual.
Okay, so that tells us everything was kosher for the people who finished the Giro behind you, but we still don't know whether the riders who finished the Giro _ahead_ of you were going hard enough to expect that their hematocrit should have decreased.
It's these subtle points that make the difference between science and guesswork, you know.
As I recall, Basso only went all out on one stage of the Giro and pretty much controlled the rest of the stages like Lance used to do.
If you are exhausting yourself every day you can expect to see a medical result, but even the "new and improved" Giro still runs pianissimo most of the time.
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:
Quoted message said:
Tonight a program on doping in cycling on Belgian TV. Not very good - Pound got the opportunity to say all his half-truth with nobody conradicting him - and almost nothing new (Emma O'Reilly, Landis, etc.). The only news was what ex-soigneur Jef D'Hont was saying about his Telekom-years (1996-97). For instance he said that Erik Zabel refused to take EPO (I think he was the only one). Bjarne Riis was the exact opposite (surprise, sursprise), but D'Hond also told that once Riis had a hematocrite level of 64 %! Apparently the nickname "Mister 60 %" doesn't give Riis his due. D'Hond also said that Riis was suffering from terrible side effects, like some kind of rheumatism, which was so serious and painful that he hardly move his hands. I think we all agree that a rider who wanted to win the Tour so badly that he was willing to suffer like that, risking his life and his health simultaneously, really deserved to win.
I also thought the announcement that Basso rode a Giro while keeping his hematocrit at a constant level was rather remarkable. The program implied this is typical of microdosing EPO.
It is also typical of not going to the absolute limit. My hematocrit stays between 48 and 49 percent pretty evenly regardless of anything else and unless I'm microdosing on EPO despite my lack of even knowing where I'd buy it I'd say that a steady hematocrit is the normal case and not the unusual.
Tom, the point is that the hematocrit level is usually dropping a few percent during a gruelling race like the Giro or the Tour. By contrast Basso's level increased a little (from 42,7 to 43.1 if I'm not mistaken). As Jonathan said, this seems to be typical of microdosing EPO.
"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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Tom, the point is that the hematocrit level is usually dropping a few percent during a gruelling race like the Giro or the Tour. By contrast Basso's level increased a little (from 42,7 to 43.1 if I'm not mistaken). As Jonathan said, this seems to be typical of microdosing EPO.
This doesn't seem correct to me Benjo. EPO is a hugely effective hormone. The human body produces that stuff in microscopic quantities and even "microdosing" is considerably higher amounts than the body produces.
And as for that change you noted - anyone that believes that they can measure hematocrit closer than 2% accurately is dreaming. And even that has a great deal to do with hydration more than anything else.
Tonight a program on doping in cycling on Belgian TV. Not very good - Pound got the opportunity to say all his half-truth with nobody conradicting him - and almost nothing new (Emma O'Reilly, Landis, etc.). The only news was what ex-soigneur Jef D'Hont was saying about his Telekom-years (1996-97). For instance he said that Erik Zabel refused to take EPO (I think he was the only one). Bjarne Riis was the exact opposite (surprise, sursprise), but D'Hond also told that once Riis had a hematocrite level of 64 %! Apparently the nickname "Mister 60 %" doesn't give Riis his due. D'Hond also said that Riis was suffering from terrible side effects, like some kind of rheumatism, which was so serious and painful that he hardly move his hands. I think we all agree that a rider who wanted to win the Tour so badly that he was willing to suffer like that, risking his life and his health simultaneously, really deserved to win.
