Jan: No Doyenne

"Davey Crockett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

And judging by the shape he's in with around a couple of months+ to go,

he'll have as much chance of winning the Tour as the kelme and Cofidis lads.

I think Jan is waiting to see how Armstrong does on Friday. If Armstrong
climbs well, Jan will beging training in earnest on Saturday.

Davey Crockett schreef:

Quoted message said:

And judging by the shape he's in with around a couple of months+ to go, he'll have as much chance of winning the Tour as the kelme and Cofidis lads.
--

He'll keep Vino out of the wind in the flat stages.

Van Hoorebeeck Bart said:

Davey Crockett schreef:

Quoted message said:

And judging by the shape he's in with around a couple of months+ to go, he'll have as much chance of winning the Tour as the kelme and Cofidis lads.
--

He'll keep Vino out of the wind in the flat stages.

Davey slaps his head!!

Jeeperz I never thought of that.

Say's ``Now whadda ya think of that Jim Bowie? It's part of the team strategy!!!''

--
le Vent a Dos
Davey Crockett
Six-Day site: http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html

Van Hoorebeeck Bart said:

Davey Crockett schreef:

Quoted message said:

And judging by the shape he's in with around a couple of months+ to go, he'll have as much chance of winning the Tour as the kelme and Cofidis lads.
--

He'll keep Vino out of the wind in the flat stages.

Heck, he'll keep the whole team out of the wind.

Richard Adams said:

Van Hoorebeeck Bart said:

Davey Crockett schreef:

Quoted message said:

And judging by the shape he's in with around a couple of months+ to go, he'll have as much chance of winning the Tour as the kelme and Cofidis lads.
--

He'll keep Vino out of the wind in the flat stages.

Heck, he'll keep the whole team out of the wind.

In a slightly different vein, I really feel sorry for Jan,

He won it fair and square in 1997 and was always a better rider than the rider who is going for a sixth go-around this year.

It's just devastating to think that, all other things being equal, he could be going for consecutive win number 8!!!

Just my two-bits worth from a guy who doesn't care who wins, so long as he's 10 minutes ahead of You-Knnow_Who.

--
le Vent a Dos
Davey Crockett
Six-Day site: http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html

Davey Crockett <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Richard Adams said:

Van Hoorebeeck Bart said:

Davey Crockett schreef:

>And judging by the shape he's in with around a couple of months+ to go, he'll have as much chance of winning the Tour as the kelme and Cofidis lads.
>--
He'll keep Vino out of the wind in the flat stages.

Heck, he'll keep the whole team out of the wind.

In a slightly different vein, I really feel sorry for Jan,

He won it fair and square in 1997 and was always a better rider than the
rider who is going for a sixth go-around this year.

No. He's not. All things being equal, better riders win races over
people who are not as good as them. Everybody has a little bad luck,
but the fact that Ullrich has lost the tour four or five times since
the year he won says something. Sure maybe Ullrich has more natural
talent, but if year in and year out he's losing, then he's not better
than the competition. In fact, if you believe that he has more talent
then the only real choice you have is that he's a slacker, or that he
doesn't have the head of a champion.

Being a better racer than somebody else is about winning more than
them. Who knows, there could be 20 people who either are racing or
have been racing that have more talent than Lance or Jan. Maybe they
don't have the right work ethic. Or maybe they have too many doubts
and lose because they are weak in the head. But you know what? If
that's the case, they aren't as good.

Professional bike racing is about having the whole package. Climbing,
time trialing, sprinting, suffering in the rain and heat, crosswinds,
cobbles, short, steep climbs, 20 km mountain passes and having the
mindset that goes along with it. The best riders just go out and win
races. The best bike racers win because they are stronger, smarter
and harder. They win because they make that final counter attack even
though they feel like they are going to die. That make that attack
because every nerve ending in their body says "GO NOW!" It hurts
terribly, but they win because at the moment it mattered most, the
others were weak.

If I had a dollar for every bike racer I knew who had an enourmous
talent, but never went anywhere I'd be rich. Look at the other end.
Look at a guy like Mike Sayers. We were team mates 8 or 10 years ago.
To put it bluntly, Mike wasn't exactly oozing with raw talent. He
got dropped on any real hill. But Mike wanted to be a bike racer and
he worked HARD! He's been a pro for years now and raced in the
[censored] Tour of Flanders! I could probably name off a number of guys
who everybody thought had more talent who are still racing industrial
park crits in Nor Cal if they are racing at all.

Having said that, I have an enourmous amount of respect for Jan, but
here we are yet again, it's late April and Jan is having to skip the
harder races because he's not fit enough to finish them. I'm sure he
will get much fitter, and I'll bet he's on the podium in Paris this
year again. But it won't be on the top step unless something happens
to the guy who got his third win of the year today. Somebody else my
beat Armstrong, but it won't be Jan...

Kevin Metcalfe
[email hidden]
Pleasant Hill, Ca

Davey Crockett said:

Richard Adams said:

Van Hoorebeeck Bart said:

Davey Crockett schreef:

>And judging by the shape he's in with around a couple of months+ to
>go, he'll have as much chance of winning the Tour as the kelme and
>Cofidis lads.
>--
He'll keep Vino out of the wind in the flat stages.

Heck, he'll keep the whole team out of the wind.

In a slightly different vein, I really feel sorry for Jan,
He won it fair and square in 1997 and was always a better rider than the
rider who is going for a sixth go-around this year.
It's just devastating to think that, all other things being equal, he
could be going for consecutive win number 8!!!
Just my two-bits worth from a guy who doesn't care who wins, so long as
he's 10 minutes ahead of You-Knnow_Who.
--
le Vent a Dos Davey Crockett Six-Day site: http://members.rogers.com/si-
xday/sixday.htmlhttp://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html

There is a good response to thie, unless of course you are implying that
lance is on drugs and Jan isn't. If that is what you think then say it
and be the troll, but just remember that Jan and not Lance is the only
one who has tested positive for drugs.

--

Quoted message said:

There is a good response to thie, unless of course you are implying that
lance is on drugs and Jan isn't.

Nope
--
le Vent a Dos
Davey Crockett
Six-Day site: http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html

"Kevin Metcalfe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

No. He's not. All things being equal, better riders win races over
people who are not as good as them.

Kevin, you DO realize that this will be morphed into "Metcalfe said that Jan
sucks"? Good to see you around. What have you been up to? Doing any riding
these days?

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Kevin Metcalfe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

No. He's not. All things being equal, better riders win races over
people who are not as good as them.

Kevin, you DO realize that this will be morphed into "Metcalfe said that Jan
sucks"?

He doesn't suck, there is just something missing that has more to do
with his mentality than anything else I think.

Talent is a great thing to have, but I think that most of the people
around here (r.b.r) have no idea how important the mental aspect of
cycling is. That is what has made Merckx, Hinault, Indurain and
Armstrong so great.

Quoted message said:

Good to see you around. What have you been up to? Doing any riding
these days?

I'm doing a fair amount of riding, but not training per se. I'm going
to make a cameo apperance at the Wente masters crit this weekend, but
I'm not going near any race with a hill...

Kevin Metcalfe
[email hidden]

In article <[email hidden]>, Kevin

Metcalfe said:

I'm doing a fair amount of riding, but not training per se. I'm going
to make a cameo apperance at the Wente masters crit this weekend,

Please don't hook me in the sprint. I get scared when you big burly
pursuiters start throwing your weight around.

-WG

Kevin Metcalfe said:

Quoted message said:

Talent is a great thing to have, but I think that most of the people
around here (r.b.r) have no idea how important the mental aspect of
cycling is.

a long time ago i was reading about the mental aspects of racing and
there was one thing that interested me that makes me think of jan
(although i'm not saying it's his problem, don't know anything about him really).

the problem was that even though someone wanted to win, they always
managed to sabotage their efforts somehow, eg, didn't train enough even
though they knew better, partied the night before the big race, etc. and
the solution proposed was that they were doing these things, maybe
without realizing why, but so that if they did lose, they always had an
out. what they were really afraid of was that if they did their very
very best and made no mistakes, what if they still lost? they would have
to face up to the fact that even their best wasn't good enough.

also, being *so* good at something that not getting first is a failure
can't be a great place to be for some people.

heather

"h squared" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

but so that if they did lose, they always had an
out. what they were really afraid of was that if they did their very
very best and made no mistakes, what if they still lost? they would have
to face up to the fact that even their best wasn't good enough.

How many times did you hear somebody say to someone else, 'but you studied
for the exam - no wonder you did so well'. Fear of failure.

To turn the question on its head, Pro Cycling has an article in the issue
with the picture of LA on the cover where he says, words to the effect,
'*we* are always afraid someone is doing better and more than *us*'. What
would you think if your buddy at the group ride said something like that to
you? Moreover, would you let your buddy off with the 'my brake rubbed all
day', 'i didn't drink enough', 'i gave you the win', 'you didn't wait for
me' litany without wondering about it?

My point is that we can pick apart the character of any professional athlete
and it says more about us than it does them. Sometimes you lose because
you're slower. Sometimes you win because you're faster.

Are you guys suggesting that the people who finish ahead of you in a race
(assuming you race) do so because you don't have the heart or mind of a
champion?

TM said:

Quoted message said:

To turn the question on its head, Pro Cycling has an article in the issue
with the picture of LA on the cover where he says, words to the effect,
'*we* are always afraid someone is doing better and more than *us*'. What
would you think if your buddy at the group ride said something like that to
you? Moreover, would you let your buddy off with the 'my brake rubbed all
day', 'i didn't drink enough', 'i gave you the win', 'you didn't wait for
me' litany without wondering about it?

i'm sorry, i don't really understand what you're asking/saying. my post
was about how some people always seem to sabotage their efforts until
you just want to slap them. i'm not sure what you mean by, "would you
just let your buddy off...without wondering about it". i *do* wonder
about it, and my post was about one (only one, and probably not the
correct one, but it's interesting to me) of the ways that question could
be answered.

if it's not interesting to you, that's ok. there's never a lot of stuff
on this group on how to get mentally tougher so i figure people don't
want to talk about it.

heather

"h squared" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

my post was about one (only one, and probably not the
correct one, but it's interesting to me) of the ways that question could
be answered.

No, I agreed with you on that point.

Quoted message said:

if it's not interesting to you,

It is. That is why I posted. I think you're confused because you're looking
for the way in which I was slamming you and I'm not. I was saying granted,
but how do we account for this?

I was merely stating my opinion that sometimes commentators do a disservice
to athletes by stating that their physical failures are because they aren't
champion material mentally. How do we know from the couch who wrung every
last bit of talent and effort out of their ability and came up short to a
better man? How do we know that the better man isn't stronger physically
because he is a basket case psychologically?

I was trying to lift it out of the LA/Jan conflict and talk about mental
toughness in general, but like you imply, this is difficult at best.

"h squared" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

if it's not interesting to you, that's ok. there's never a lot of stuff
on this group on how to get mentally tougher so i figure people don't
want to talk about it.

How trainable is that? In all my years w/ the US team, there were only a
couple of instances where a sports psychologist was brought in to work with
us. Most of that focused on how deal with external distractions, such as
security.

On my own, I met with a sports psych., but it was for improving focus and
motivation. I don't consider that to be the same as mental toughness,
though.

First, we would need to define mental toughness.

h squared <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

a long time ago i was reading about the mental aspects of racing and
there was one thing that interested me that makes me think of jan
(although i'm not saying it's his problem, don't know anything about
him really).

the problem was that even though someone wanted to win, they always
managed to sabotage their efforts somehow, eg, didn't train enough
even though they knew better, partied the night before the big race,
etc. and the solution proposed was that they were doing these things,
maybe without realizing why, but so that if they did lose, they always
had an out. what they were really afraid of was that if they did their
very very best and made no mistakes, what if they still lost? they
would have to face up to the fact that even their best wasn't good
enough.

also, being *so* good at something that not getting first is a failure
can't be a great place to be for some people.

One time that I recall Ullrich giving himself an excuse for losing in
advance was when he went to the '98 Vuelta saying he was using it to
train for World's . . . but he won that Vuelta anyway.

NS

"Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How trainable is that? In all my years w/ the US team, there were only a
couple of instances where a sports psychologist was brought in to work

with

Quoted message said:

us. Most of that focused on how deal with external distractions, such as
security.

I thought "mental toughness" was something that's part of your make up from
a young age, or maybe something you get in your teens. I dunno, to be
honest. I do know that although I'm paid (and ride) a hell of a lot less
than Jan and I'm not a pro cyclist, I still have no problems maintaining my
weight at a reasonable level for cycling. Of course I'm not the only one.

I guess the funny thing is that you have to be mentally tough to ride a
three week grand tour, not to mention finish first or second in it. You also
have to have the discipline to train yourself to be ready at that level. So
why is it so hard to keep your weight down?

OK, I'd better not write him off yet as he has a good track record in the
Tour. But Ullrich was in better shape and seemed to be better mentally with
the Coast/Bianchi chaos last year than he is with the old crowd in Telekom
this year.

Jeff

TM said:

I was trying to lift it out of the LA/Jan conflict and talk about mental
toughness in general, but like you imply, this is difficult at best.

lol! that's what i was trying to do too. i'm sorry, i really didn't
understand what you were saying in your last post. i asked my boyfriend
to help, but he wasn't sure either. thanks for explaining.

heather