Jan/Lance and us.

TritonRider said:

I don't think we know how lucky we are to have been able to watch on of the greatest rivalries in
the history of cycling to play out before us. Jan has some good material here:
cyclingnews.comnewsOpen ↗ We are getting to live in something that
will be written about 100 years from now, if this sad old planet is still here that is. Bill C

I agree completely! I personally wanted to see Bjarne Riis defend after beating Indurain, but I
wasn't too disappointed when Ullrich won in 1997. I was really glad that Pantani had his year, and
was able to top Jan. Having Lance make not just a comeback, but an actual advance to his career
(most never expected him to be a great grand tour rider), was thrilling.

However, seeing Jan repeatedly beaten, by rather narrow margins, is hard. It seems as if he deserved
some vistories that escaped him. Truthfully, I think that some of his disappointments are of his own
making. I hope he's matured now, and will concentrate on being the best he can for the rest of his
career. If he does that, I won't be surprised to see him take the crown in 2004. (And if he does, I
think Lance will retire.)

I have been rewatching the tapes I made of the OLN-TV coverage of this year's tour, and it is nearly
as exciting as the first time, even though I know the outcome and the major events.

Of course, I'm also ready to see the next leader of the peloton come forward. Who is it going to be?

Quoted message said:

From: Colin Campbell

Quoted message said:

Of course, I'm also ready to see the next leader of the peloton come forward. Who is it
going to be?

I think that Nozal could become that rider. He seems to have good all around skills and a solid
TT. Bill C

it's also insane to think that without LA, Jan wins *at least* 5 TDF's, possibly 6 or 7. Jan would
have been considered one of the greatest cyclists EVER...without LA. Will he even be remembered in
100 years...I doubt it. It's really too bad for him.

TritonRider said:

I don't think we know how lucky we are to have been able to watch on of the greatest
rivalries in the history of cycling to play out before us. Jan has some good material here:
cyclingnews.comnewsOpen ↗ We are getting to live in
something that will be written about 100 years from now, if this sad old planet is still
here that is. Bill C

They haven't even finished writing about PouPou!

anonymous <[email hidden]> wrote in news:no-7D5AE6.23210706122003 @bignews.bellsouth.net:

Quoted message said:

it's also insane to think that without LA, Jan wins *at least* 5 TDF's, possibly 6 or 7. Jan would
have been considered one of the greatest cyclists EVER...without LA. Will he even be remembered in
100 years...I doubt it. It's really too bad for him.

Why?

Like he's going to give a [censored] in 100 years. Like he's going to be alive in 100 years. Ashes
to ashes...

Fame is overrated.

TritonRider said:

Quoted message said:

From: Colin Campbell

Quoted message said:

Of course, I'm also ready to see the next leader of the peloton come forward. Who is it
going to be?

I think that Nozal could become that rider. He seems to have good all around skills and a solid
TT. Bill C

Interesting speculation. Isidro Nozal did well, rather than team leader Igor Gonzalez de
Galdeano. Beloki was out with broken femur, thus not a factor. Heras beats his new teammates by
28 seconds and 3:27.

Considering the team for next year, Heras should be leader for the TdF and leave the Vuelta to
Nozal. de Galdeano becomes a superdomestique capable of winning stages.

In article said:

Quoted message said:

From: Colin Campbell

Quoted message said:

Of course, I'm also ready to see the next leader of the peloton come forward. Who is it
going to be?

I think that Nozal could become that rider. He seems to have good all around skills and a solid
TT. Bill C

There's no doubt that he's strong. But the one area I see that is lacking is the self confidence
of a real winner. He was starting to get burnt out physically near the end of the Vuelta, but
when things started to go bad (Saiz getting tossed out, IGdeG starting to fall off the pace at
the end of climbs, etc.), he went downhill pretty fast.

--
tanx, Howard

"Danger, you haven't seen the last of me!"
"No, but the first of you turns my stomach!"
Firesign Theatre

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Anonymous
it's also insane to think that without LA, Jan wins *at least* 5 TDF's, possibly 6 or 7. Jan would
have been considered one of the greatest cyclists EVER...without LA. Will he even be remembered in
100 years...I doubt it. It's really too bad for him.

Hmmm.... he IS one of the greatest cyclists ever. His Palmares already compare to that of Joop Zoetemelk. Look at this... and remember he is just became 30.

1993
1. Amateur Road World Champion

1996
No 2 TdF+ 1 TT stage
HEW Cyclassic

1997
No1 TdF + 2 stages

1998
No 2 TdF + 3 stages

1999
World champion TT
No1 Vualeta + 2 stages

2000
No 2 TdF
Olympic Road Champion
No 2 Olympic TT

2001
No 2 TdF
No 1 German Championship
World Champion TT

2003
No 2 TdF + 1 stage

Tuschinski <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Anonymous said:

it's also insane to think that without LA, Jan wins *at least* 5 TDF's, possibly 6 or 7. Jan
would have been considered one of the greatest cyclists EVER...without LA. Will he even be
remembered in 100 years...I doubt it. It's really too bad for him.

Hmmm.... he IS one of the greatest cyclists ever. His Palmares already compare to that of Joop
Zoetemelk. Look at this... and remember he is just became 30.

1993
1. Amateur Road World Champion

1996 No 2 TdF+ 1 TT stage HEW Cyclassic

1997 No1 TdF + 2 stages

1998 No 2 TdF + 3 stages

1999 World champion TT No1 Vualeta + 2 stages

2000 No 2 TdF Olympic Road Champion No 2 Olympic TT

2001 No 2 TdF No 1 German Championship World Champion TT

2003 No 2 TdF + 1 stage

--

Nobody ever remembers second place much. Or as we say, "First place loser".

Howard Kveck <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

There's no doubt that he's strong. But the one area I see that is lacking is the self
confidence of a real winner. He was starting to get burnt out physically near the end of the
Vuelta, but when things started to go bad (Saiz getting tossed out, IGdeG starting to fall off
the pace at the end of climbs, etc.), he went downhill pretty fast.

that sounds like a bunch of that Saiz [censored]. Remember that Saiz is the man who has managed to have
the strongest team in the Tour and the Vuelta for many years without being able to pull off a win
most of the time.

This hasn't been for a lack of talented riders but because he is a moron who sells his own people
short every time and destroys their efforts with his weird management policies where he would lie to
his riders about their positions, scream at them in the middle of a race or simply allow anyone to
do anything they like if it looked like they might get a stage regardless of what it did to good
race strategy.

Beloki had enough BS and moved on and I'll bet that he is better for
it.

Nozal showed he has what it takes but was brow-beaten more than anything else into losing.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Tom Arsenault

Nobody ever remembers second place much. Or as we say, "First place loser".

Yes, I agree, Jan has only got second places. Just a big loser as Zoetemelk.

What insignificant wins does Jan have? 2 great tours, 3 world champion titles, a silver and gold medal on the Olympics?

No way he will be remembered as a champion 🙄

In article said:

No way he will be remembered as a champion 🙄

a champion yes but he won't be mentioned in the same group as Merckx, Hinault, Indurain, Armstrong
etc. True and proven champions.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Tom

Kunich) said:

Howard Kveck <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

There's no doubt that he's strong. But the one area I see that is lacking is the self
confidence of a real winner. He was starting to get burnt out physically near the end of the
Vuelta, but when things started to go bad (Saiz getting tossed out, IGdeG starting to fall
off the pace at the end of climbs, etc.), he went downhill pretty fast.

that sounds like a bunch of that Saiz [censored]. Remember that Saiz is the man who has managed to have
the strongest team in the Tour and the Vuelta for many years without being able to pull off a win
most of the time.

This hasn't been for a lack of talented riders but because he is a moron who sells his own people
short every time and destroys their efforts with his weird management policies where he would lie
to his riders about their positions, scream at them in the middle of a race or simply allow anyone
to do anything they like if it looked like they might get a stage regardless of what it did to
good race strategy.

Beloki had enough BS and moved on and I'll bet that he is better for
it.

Nozal showed he has what it takes but was brow-beaten more than anything else into losing.

I can't argue with you about Saiz's management style. He's [censored] away more chances at wins
through some of the lame-ass stuff you describe than many DSs will ever see. But the last thing
you said there is pretty much exactly what I was talking about. If Nozal was mentally tougher and
had more self-belief, he could let Saiz's bs roll off. I can't think of a time when Jalabert let
Saiz have the same effect on him as Nozal did. I wonder how Heras will react to that, as he seems
to be a fairly quiet, reclusive guy. He doesn't seem very assertive. Could be interesting to see.
I'd like to see what Heras could do with Riis as his DS. Either Riis himself or someone on his
staff seems to be a real good sports psychologist.

--
tanx, Howard

"Danger, you haven't seen the last of me!"
"No, but the first of you turns my stomach!"
Firesign Theatre

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Howard Kveck said:

I can't argue with you about Saiz's management style. He's [censored] away more chances at wins
through some of the lame-ass stuff you describe

than

Quoted message said:

many DSs will ever see.

That's because he has his riders in winning positions far more than average. And he certainly gets
more wins with his teams than most directors.

I can't understand the Saiz-bashing in this thread. He's gotten tremendous results with a wide, wide
range of riders in all sorts of events. Just because he occassionally fails in the few races US fans
follow closely doesn't make him a bad DS. Sport is about trying, and risking and occasionally
failing. Too many teams are never really in the hunt in races and don't risk much. They fail in a
sort of anonymous way.

JT

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I can't understand the Saiz-bashing in this thread.

Dumbass -

VENGA! VENGA! VENGA! VENGA! VENGA!

In this age of ubiquitious in-ear radios, everyone knows how annoying that [censored] can be.

Otherwise, ya, you've got a few good points.

In article <[email hidden]>,

(John Forrest Tomlinson) said:

Howard Kveck said:

I can't argue with you about Saiz's management style. He's [censored] away more chances at wins
through some of the lame-ass stuff you describe

than many DSs will ever see.

That's because he has his riders in winning positions far more than average. And he certainly gets
more wins with his teams than most directors.

That's a very good point.

Quoted message said:

I can't understand the Saiz-bashing in this thread. He's gotten tremendous results with a wide,
wide range of riders in all sorts of events. Just because he occassionally fails in the few races
US fans follow closely doesn't make him a bad DS. Sport is about trying, and risking and
occasionally failing. Too many teams are never really in the hunt in races and don't risk much.
They fail in a sort of anonymous way.

JT

I agree that he's gotten many good results over the years, but at a certain level, the failures
have been fairly glaring. You are right, though, about Saiz making the effort to try for a win.
At least he has the belief that his team can win, which is more than you can say about many
teams. I still think that Nozal lacks the mental toughness and self confidence to be a big
winner, but he could grow into it. Whether Saiz is the guy to make it happen is subject to
question, imo.

--
tanx, Howard

"Danger, you haven't seen the last of me!"
"No, but the first of you turns my stomach!"
Firesign Theatre

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

[email hidden] (TritonRider) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I don't think we know how lucky we are to have been able to watch on of the greatest rivalries in
the history of cycling to play out before us. Jan has some good material here:
cyclingnews.comnewsOpen ↗ We are getting to live in something that
will be written about 100 years from now, if this sad old planet is still here that is. Bill C

If JU wants to win another Grand Tour, he better try to do so in the Giro. He's not going to win
another TdF.