Jack Daniels' Running Formula

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
writes

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Harold

Buck said:

No, this is not a new concept in sports drinks, it's a book about run
training. It seems to be pretty good to me so far. The basic idea is
that you estimate your VO2-max based on race performance and then set
your training paces based on that. It tells me, for example, that I
should be doing my long/easy runs at a faster pace than I've been doing,
which I've suspected for some time.

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any comments on this book or its training methods?

I think it's a great book and am following one of the marathon training
plans. However, it's not estimating your VO2max, it uses a concept of VDOT
which is a combination of your VO2max and running ecomomy. I can't offer
any concrete proof that the training methods work as I've only just
started following it, but I'm pretty confident it will.

BTW, there's a new edition out this month.

Don't say that - it sounds like he's just bought the old edition! It's
just cruel when someone has a fun new toy to tell them there's a better
one coming out next week.
--
Mel Rimmer

In article said:

No, this is not a new concept in sports drinks, it's a book about run
training. It seems to be pretty good to me so far. The basic idea is
that you estimate your VO2-max based on race performance and then set
your training paces based on that. It tells me, for example, that I
should be doing my long/easy runs at a faster pace than I've been doing,
which I've suspected for some time.

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any comments on this book or its training methods?

I think it's a great book and am following one of the marathon training
plans. However, it's not estimating your VO2max, it uses a concept of VDOT
which is a combination of your VO2max and running ecomomy. I can't offer
any concrete proof that the training methods work as I've only just
started following it, but I'm pretty confident it will.

BTW, there's a new edition out this month.

Paul

"Harold Buck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

No, this is not a new concept in sports drinks, it's a book about run
training. It seems to be pretty good to me so far. The basic idea is
that you estimate your VO2-max based on race performance and then set
your training paces based on that. It tells me, for example, that I
should be doing my long/easy runs at a faster pace than I've been doing,
which I've suspected for some time.

Just out of interest, what pace does it recommend for long runs for someone
running 40ish miles a week with a 5k time of 19:35 and a 1/2 M time of 1:31?

Tim

In article said:

"Harold Buck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

No, this is not a new concept in sports drinks, it's a book about run
training. It seems to be pretty good to me so far. The basic idea is
that you estimate your VO2-max based on race performance and then set
your training paces based on that. It tells me, for example, that I
should be doing my long/easy runs at a faster pace than I've been doing,
which I've suspected for some time.

Just out of interest, what pace does it recommend for long runs for someone
running 40ish miles a week with a 5k time of 19:35 and a 1/2 M time of 1:31?

Your 5k gives you a VDOT of 51 (50 from HM)

Paces for VDOT 51:

Easy/Long: 8:07
MP 7:09
T pace 400: 1:40, 1000: 4:11, mile: 6:44
I pace 400: 92, 1000: 3:51, 1200: 4:36
R pace 200: 42, 400: 86

Paul

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article said:

"Harold Buck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

No, this is not a new concept in sports drinks, it's a book about run
training. It seems to be pretty good to me so far. The basic idea is
that you estimate your VO2-max based on race performance and then set
your training paces based on that. It tells me, for example, that I
should be doing my long/easy runs at a faster pace than I've been

doing,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

which I've suspected for some time.

Just out of interest, what pace does it recommend for long runs for

someone

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

running 40ish miles a week with a 5k time of 19:35 and a 1/2 M time of

1:31?

Quoted message said:

Your 5k gives you a VDOT of 51 (50 from HM)

Paces for VDOT 51:

Easy/Long: 8:07

Hmm.. quite a bit faster than I usually go (normally 8:45ish) but I did do
my LSD last Sunday at 8:13 pace. The main reason I think I ran faster this
weekend was that I was running after dark in the evening rather than my
usual morning run. Not sure my body would cooperate in the morning. ;-)

Quoted message said:

MP 7:09

Lets see, that's works out to about 3:10 for a full marathon? I suppose
that's a number I could shoot for.

Quoted message said:

T pace 400: 1:40, 1000: 4:11, mile: 6:44
I pace 400: 92, 1000: 3:51, 1200: 4:36
R pace 200: 42, 400: 86

You'll have to explaing the TIR business. I'm guessing "R" isn't my
recovery pace for intervals. ;-)

Of course, I could just buy the book. Unfortunately, now that you've said
that there's a new edition coming out I'll have to wait till Christmas.

Cheers.

Tim

In article <[email hidden]>,

Mel Rimmer said:

Quoted message said:

BTW, there's a new edition out this month.

Don't say that - it sounds like he's just bought the old edition! It's
just cruel when someone has a fun new toy to tell them there's a better
one coming out next week.

Yeah, but I got mine at a used bookstore for $8.50. I can't imagine the
new version is less than $20.00, so I'm not too bummed.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

In article said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Paces for VDOT 51:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Easy/Long: 8:07

Quoted message said:

Hmm.. quite a bit faster than I usually go (normally 8:45ish) but I did do
my LSD last Sunday at 8:13 pace. The main reason I think I ran faster this
weekend was that I was running after dark in the evening rather than my
usual morning run. Not sure my body would cooperate in the morning. ;-)

I thought that the easy pace was a bit fast too, but previously I was running
at 70%WHR. I'm going to try and maintain the Daniels' rates through my marathon
training though.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

MP 7:09

Quoted message said:

Lets see, that's works out to about 3:10 for a full marathon? I suppose
that's a number I could shoot for.

And why not?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

T pace 400: 1:40, 1000: 4:11, mile: 6:44
I pace 400: 92, 1000: 3:51, 1200: 4:36
R pace 200: 42, 400: 86

Quoted message said:

You'll have to explaing the TIR business. I'm guessing "R" isn't my
recovery pace for intervals. ;-)

T is threshold pace for tempo runs and cruise intervals. Daniels' tempo runs are
ideally 20 minute runs at T pace. Cruise intervals are 3-10 minute repeats with
1 minute or less recovery.

I pace is for intervals at the above distance with recovery time equal to or
a little less than the run time.

R pace is for repetitions with full recovery inbetween repeats.

Quoted message said:

Of course, I could just buy the book. Unfortunately, now that you've said
that there's a new edition coming out I'll have to wait till Christmas.

Mine's on order from amazon, due this week so they say.

Paul

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

<snip>

Thanks for the info.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Of course, I could just buy the book. Unfortunately, now that you've

said

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that there's a new edition coming out I'll have to wait till Christmas.

Mine's on order from amazon, due this week so they say.

When I looked they were advertising the 1998 edition. Do you have a link to
a newer edition?

Tim

In article said:

When I looked they were advertising the 1998 edition. Do you have a link to
a newer edition?

http://www.humankinetics.com/products/showproduct.cfm?isbn=0736054928
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0736054928

I ordered a copy a couple of weeks ago and it didn't have that extra 2 quid
though.

Paul

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>, Harold

Buck said:

No, this is not a new concept in sports drinks, it's a book about run
training. It seems to be pretty good to me so far. The basic idea is
that you estimate your VO2-max based on race performance and then set
your training paces based on that. It tells me, for example, that I
should be doing my long/easy runs at a faster pace than I've been doing,
which I've suspected for some time.

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any comments on this book or its training methods?

I think it's a great book and am following one of the marathon training
plans. However, it's not estimating your VO2max, it uses a concept of VDOT
which is a combination of your VO2max and running ecomomy. I can't offer
any concrete proof that the training methods work as I've only just
started following it, but I'm pretty confident it will.

BTW, there's a new edition out this month.

I think Vdot is velocity at VO2max, i.e, how fast you're going when you're
going fast. (Even though vdot sounds as if it ought to mean acceleration.)

I like JD's book, and his tables work very well at predicting my own
performances. So well, in fact, that I don't even bother doing the races
anymore. I just enter the number from JD's table in my running log and spend
the extra time on the golf course.

--
************************************************************************
Terry R. McConnell Mathematics/215 Carnegie/Syracuse, N.Y. 13244-1150
[email hidden] 229B Physics Bldg http://barnyard.syr.edu/~tmc
************************************************************************

"Harold Buck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Mel Rimmer said:

Quoted message said:

BTW, there's a new edition out this month.

Don't say that - it sounds like he's just bought the old edition!
It's
just cruel when someone has a fun new toy to tell them there's a
better
one coming out next week.

Yeah, but I got mine at a used bookstore for $8.50. I can't imagine
the
new version is less than $20.00, so I'm not too bummed.

$13.27 on Amazon. Throw in some S&H and not to bad.

-DF

Harold Buck wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

No, this is not a new concept in sports drinks, it's a book about run
training. It seems to be pretty good to me so far. The basic idea is
that you estimate your VO2-max based on race performance and then set
your training paces based on that. It tells me, for example, that I
should be doing my long/easy runs at a faster pace than I've been doing,
which I've suspected for some time.

Does anyone have any comments on this book or its training methods?

I looked over this book (didn't read the entire thing or try it's program)
and it seems very good for runners who want to compete to their best
potential in road races. As someone who trains mostly on trails I don't
find it as useful.

Also I found it far too programmed for my personal taste. I'd rather
program myself based on what I learn than be programmed by someone else's
"formula". To me running loses much of it's appeal if you take the art ouf
of it.

-Tony

Tim Downie said:

Quoted message said:

Hmm.. quite a bit faster than I usually go (normally 8:45ish) but I did do
my LSD last Sunday at 8:13 pace. The main reason I think I ran faster this
weekend was that I was running after dark in the evening rather than my
usual morning run. Not sure my body would cooperate in the morning. ;-)

Quoted message said:

MP 7:09

Lets see, that's works out to about 3:10 for a full marathon? I suppose
that's a number I could shoot for.

Quoted message said:

T pace 400: 1:40, 1000: 4:11, mile: 6:44
I pace 400: 92, 1000: 3:51, 1200: 4:36
R pace 200: 42, 400: 86

You'll have to explaing the TIR business. I'm guessing "R" isn't my
recovery pace for intervals. ;-)

Of course, I could just buy the book. Unfortunately, now that you've said
that there's a new edition coming out I'll have to wait till Christmas.

BTW, I have a vdot calculator on my webpage

http://www.panix.com/~elflord/vdot.html

The book is well worth a read anyway though.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Quoted message said:

In article said:

No, this is not a new concept in sports drinks, it's a book about run
training. It seems to be pretty good to me so far. The basic idea is
that you estimate your VO2-max based on race performance and then set
your training paces based on that. It tells me, for example, that I
should be doing my long/easy runs at a faster pace than I've been doing,
which I've suspected for some time.

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any comments on this book or its training methods?

I think it's a great book and am following one of the marathon training
plans. However, it's not estimating your VO2max, it uses a concept of VDOT
which is a combination of your VO2max and running ecomomy. I can't offer
any concrete proof that the training methods work as I've only just
started following it, but I'm pretty confident it will.

BTW, there's a new edition out this month.

I followed it for a while and had good results. You may slow down a little in
phase 3, but when you hit phase 4 you really start to fly (especially if you
do a slight milage drop as he recommends)

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Tim Downie said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article said:

"Harold Buck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> No, this is not a new concept in sports drinks, it's a book about run
> training. It seems to be pretty good to me so far. The basic idea is
> that you estimate your VO2-max based on race performance and then set
> your training paces based on that. It tells me, for example, that I
> should be doing my long/easy runs at a faster pace than I've been

doing,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> which I've suspected for some time.

Just out of interest, what pace does it recommend for long runs for

someone

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

running 40ish miles a week with a 5k time of 19:35 and a 1/2 M time of

1:31?

Quoted message said:

Your 5k gives you a VDOT of 51 (50 from HM)

Paces for VDOT 51:

Easy/Long: 8:07

Hmm.. quite a bit faster than I usually go (normally 8:45ish) but I did do
my LSD last Sunday at 8:13 pace. The main reason I think I ran faster this
weekend was that I was running after dark in the evening rather than my
usual morning run. Not sure my body would cooperate in the morning. ;-)

Wouldn't worry if you're doing the easy runs "too slowly". The author is
more concerned about people trying to do their training runs too fast.

As an aside, I often run a little slower than the recommended paces Daniels
gives. Steve Common usually runs quite a lot slower.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Quoted message said:

In article said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Paces for VDOT 51:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Easy/Long: 8:07

Quoted message said:

Hmm.. quite a bit faster than I usually go (normally 8:45ish) but I did do
my LSD last Sunday at 8:13 pace. The main reason I think I ran faster this
weekend was that I was running after dark in the evening rather than my
usual morning run. Not sure my body would cooperate in the morning. ;-)

I thought that the easy pace was a bit fast too, but previously I was
running at 70%WHR. I'm going to try and maintain the Daniels' rates through
my marathon training though.

IMO -- it's more important to avoid going too fast than it is to avoid going
too slow. So you could do a "recoovery run" at a slower pace than 'E pace'.
OTOH, I like to do my long runs at a reasonable pace (close to the Daniels
numbers), because these are important training runs.

Quoted message said:

And why not?

Partly because Daniels' tables are pretty lousy for predicting marathon times.
The Daniels marathon predictions are too optimistic, because his formula
assumes that you can sustain 85%V02max forever. The formula collapses pretty
badly over half marathon distance.

Instead of using Daniels to predict marathon time, use Gardner/Purdy
or WAVA or something similar. The Daniels table is too optimistic. Then add
about 5 minutes if you want to be conservative.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Thanks for the calculator.

Shelby

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 2004-11-03, Tim Downie <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hmm.. quite a bit faster than I usually go (normally 8:45ish) but I did

do

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

my LSD last Sunday at 8:13 pace. The main reason I think I ran faster

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

weekend was that I was running after dark in the evening rather than my
usual morning run. Not sure my body would cooperate in the morning. ;-)

Wouldn't worry if you're doing the easy runs "too slowly". The author is
more concerned about people trying to do their training runs too fast.

Little chance of that I think. ;-) I have two club runs per week that are
run "hard" but most of the rest of my running is very easy, usually whilst
walking my dogs and involves frequent halts to throw sticks, dismounting my
dog from some other poor mutt, picking up dog cr*p etc.. I will usually
try and throw in a good hilly run as well but again I don't really try to
push the pace. I only use my watch for my club runs and my LSD.

Tim

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article said:

When I looked they were advertising the 1998 edition. Do you have a

link to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a newer edition?

http://www.humankinetics.com/products/showproduct.cfm?isbn=0736054928
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0736054928

I ordered a copy a couple of weeks ago and it didn't have that extra 2

quid

Quoted message said:

though.

Thanks. Searching by title initially only brought up the old edition (see
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0880117354/026-5507271-3383613),
Weird.

Tim