italy or denmark?

In article <[email hidden]>,

phil said:

Am looking for a country for my second europe cycle trip. Last time
did Burgundy region of France - self-guided. Wonderful. Now I'm torn
between Italy and Denmark. Italy, for the landscapes - olive groves,
hilltop towns, art and architecture, Denmark because it sounds like a
slightly more exotic and interesting version of Holland, which
frankly, seemed somewhat boring from my reading. The downside of
Italy seems to be the hills. I'm most interested in Tuscany and
Umbria. Anyone who has experienced both countries (or either), weigh
in. I am in average shape for a cycle-tourist - can do about 35-50
miles per day, with some hills.

There are, like always, tradeoffs. I'm speaking from secondhand
knowledge here.

Denmark is expensive. The roads are excellent and the terrain is fairly
flat. Bicycling is common for errands and less common for sport or
amusement. The people are very friendly and English is very commonly
spoken, except by the elderly, as its a required subject in school.
That's good because no one can pronounce Danish properly unless you grew
up with those sounds, but the politenesses (hello, please, thank you,
etc.) are easy to learn and much appreciated. Danes are very
hospitable. The entire country tends to be very quaint and cozy, as
coziness (hygge) is a cultural value. There are inns at specified
intervals on every main road. The food is very good and all meals have
a sense of formality- indeed there are cultural rules about the order of
dishes. The national tipples are beer (lagers) and aquavit (a vodka
type liquor flavored with spices like caraway and cardamom, drunk
ice-cold). You'll find that it's hard to have a chat with a Dane
without something to drink and eat being involved.

http://www.trentobike.org/bycountry/Denmark.html

Italy is less expensive. The climate is much warmer. The roads are
variable and in Umbria and Tuscany tend to be hilly. Bicycling for
sport is common and somewhat less so for errands. The people tend to be
friendly and it's not as likely that you'll find English speakers- much
like France in that regard. They really appreciate your attempts to
speak some Italian. The evening meal in a restaurant is a production
and can take a long time. The food is excellent and highly regional.
The tipple is wine and coffee. My friends who have been to Italy-
cycling and otherwise- came back raving about how much they enjoyed it.

http://www.trentobike.org/bycountry_one/Italy.html

This brings up one of my favorite Garrison Keillor stories. He married
a Danish woman and lived in Denmark for a while (and as a result, he
speaks Danish because- as it was explained to me- Danish law requires
you to learn the language before you can take a job. You are considered
disabled until you can speak the language and pass the official exam.
Even though practically everyone speaks very good English). One day his
car was broken into and his wallet was stolen. Form quite a while at
parties and such, Danes would express their regrets that this happened
to him. Garrison would thank them gravely and say, "well, we have crime
in America too."

I'd love to go to Italy to tour. My wife, who is of Danish extraction,
wants to go to Denmark in part because she hates riding a bike uphill.
I think I could probably deal.

"phil" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1169997655.743964.51480
@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com:

Quoted message said:

Am looking for a country for my second europe cycle trip. Last time
did Burgundy region of France - self-guided. Wonderful. Now I'm torn
between Italy and Denmark. Italy, for the landscapes - olive groves,
hilltop towns, art and architecture, Denmark because it sounds like a
slightly more exotic and interesting version of Holland, which
frankly, seemed somewhat boring from my reading. The downside of Italy
seems to be the hills.

No - the upside to Italy is the hills. The scenery is beautiful and the
hills have helped to preserve all the little medieval hilltowns. The
suburban sprawl mostly just takes place in the valleys. The average
gradients are not that steep or long (maybe 6-8% for 2-4 miles), though there
are some short, steep roads. If you like food and art and history, Tuscany
is one of the best places in Europe for bicycling.

If you really really really don't like climbing, then stick to Holland or
Denmark or the flatter parts of France.

sally said:

"phil" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1169997655.743964.51480
@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com:

Quoted message said:

Am looking for a country for my second europe cycle trip. Last time
did Burgundy region of France - self-guided. Wonderful. Now I'm torn
between Italy and Denmark. Italy, for the landscapes - olive groves,
hilltop towns, art and architecture, Denmark because it sounds like a
slightly more exotic and interesting version of Holland, which
frankly, seemed somewhat boring from my reading. The downside of Italy
seems to be the hills.No - the upside to Italy is the hills. The scenery is beautiful and the

hills have helped to preserve all the little medieval hilltowns. The
suburban sprawl mostly just takes place in the valleys. The average
gradients are not that steep or long (maybe 6-8% for 2-4 miles), though there
are some short, steep roads. If you like food and art and history, Tuscany
is one of the best places in Europe for bicycling.

If you really really really don't like climbing, then stick to Holland or
Denmark or the flatter parts of France.

Italy isn't just Tuscany and Umbria. Northern Italy's Veneto and
Piedmont have flatlands, hills and mountains. In the Veneto flatlands
are castle towns and Palladian villas to visit. In Piedmont's
flatlands are also castle towns to visit, and the Langhe wine country
region is a gourmet's paradise. Their hills have pretty hilltowns, as
Tuscany and Umbria do. And the mountains provide spectacular scenery
if you don't wish to ride up them, and satisfying challenges if you
do.

Some parts of Tuscany -- Florence, Siena, Chianti country (aka Chianti-
SHIRE because so many Brits have settled there) and the better known
hill towns (San Gimignano, Orvieto, etc.) -- can be overrun with
English-speaking tourists. In Perugia, Umbria, so many English
speakers come to study Italian that waiters automatically start in
English when speaking to new clientele.

Thanks - is there are particular ride you can recommend? We want to
cycle self-guided in September - probably 1 - 2 weeks of cycling.

sally said:

"phil" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1169997655.743964.51480
@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com:

Quoted message said:

Am looking for a country for my second europe cycle trip. Last time
did Burgundy region of France - self-guided. Wonderful. Now I'm torn
between Italy and Denmark. Italy, for the landscapes - olive groves,
hilltop towns, art and architecture, Denmark because it sounds like a
slightly more exotic and interesting version of Holland, which
frankly, seemed somewhat boring from my reading. The downside of Italy
seems to be the hills.No - the upside to Italy is the hills. The scenery is beautiful and the

hills have helped to preserve all the little medieval hilltowns. The
suburban sprawl mostly just takes place in the valleys. The average
gradients are not that steep or long (maybe 6-8% for 2-4 miles), though there
are some short, steep roads. If you like food and art and history, Tuscany
is one of the best places in Europe for bicycling.

If you really really really don't like climbing, then stick to Holland or
Denmark or the flatter parts of France.

Thanks - is there a particular ride you an recommend in the Veneto/
Piedmont area? (book, self-guided tour, your own, etc.)

dorkypants said:

sally said:

"phil" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1169997655.743964.51480
@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Am looking for a country for my second europe cycle trip. Last time
did Burgundy region of France - self-guided. Wonderful. Now I'm torn
between Italy and Denmark. Italy, for the landscapes - olive groves,
hilltop towns, art and architecture, Denmark because it sounds like a
slightly more exotic and interesting version of Holland, which
frankly, seemed somewhat boring from my reading. The downside of Italy
seems to be the hills.No - the upside to Italy is the hills. The scenery is beautiful and the

hills have helped to preserve all the little medieval hilltowns. The
suburban sprawl mostly just takes place in the valleys. The average
gradients are not that steep or long (maybe 6-8% for 2-4 miles), though there
are some short, steep roads. If you like food and art and history, Tuscany
is one of the best places in Europe for bicycling.

Quoted message said:

If you really really really don't like climbing, then stick to Holland or
Denmark or the flatter parts of France.Italy isn't just Tuscany and Umbria. Northern Italy's Veneto and

Piedmont have flatlands, hills and mountains. In the Veneto flatlands
are castle towns and Palladian villas to visit. In Piedmont's
flatlands are also castle towns to visit, and the Langhe wine country
region is a gourmet's paradise. Their hills have pretty hilltowns, as
Tuscany and Umbria do. And the mountains provide spectacular scenery
if you don't wish to ride up them, and satisfying challenges if you
do.

Some parts of Tuscany -- Florence, Siena, Chianti country (aka Chianti-
SHIRE because so many Brits have settled there) and the better known
hill towns (San Gimignano, Orvieto, etc.) -- can be overrun with
English-speaking tourists. In Perugia, Umbria, so many English
speakers come to study Italian that waiters automatically start in
English when speaking to new clientele.- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

"phil" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Thanks - is there are particular ride you can recommend? We want to
cycle self-guided in September - probably 1 - 2 weeks of cycling.

Get the book "Bicycle Touring in Tuscany" by David Cleveland

sally said:

"phil" <[email hidden]> wrote innews:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Thanks - is there are particular ride you can recommend? We want to
cycle self-guided in September - probably 1 - 2 weeks of cycling.Get the book "Bicycle Touring in Tuscany" by David Cleveland

I don't know this book, or any such book in fact.
However, once you have made up your mind you may like to get back for
hints and tips.
I have been riding my bikes for 'some' years in the neighborhood,
through towns and countrysides as well. .

Sergio
Pisa

phil said:

Thanks - is there a particular ride you an recommend in the Veneto/
Piedmont area? (book, self-guided tour, your own, etc.)

For self-guided, one place to start is Lonely Planet's "Cycling Italy"
-- unfortunately apparently out of print now. Amazon currently shows 2
resellers offering it at outrageous prices, Barnes & Noble finds no
resellers for it.

I own and operate Agile Compass cycling tours (www.agile-compass.com).
We do tours in Piedmont, including in September. Cycling-Made in Italy
(www.bikeitaly.com), owned and operated by a friend, does tours in the
Veneto (including in September).

Michael Khaw

sergio wrote

Quoted message said:

The Piste Ciclabili are usually poor in signs and not at all well
connected one to the next one.

Thanks for the warning about the bicycle paths.

When I said there were "gentle roads" in the Po valley I meant roads and
streets for motor vehicles. I normally much prefer vehicle roads over
bicycle paths for both my cycling and my skating -- because roads and
streets usually have more interesting sights and more interesting terrain.
And the roads often have a road surface than the "piste ciclabili" -- like I
remember some of the bicycle paths along the river Tiber and the Via Appia
Antica around Rome were covered with cobblestones (? "sanpietri" ?)

I think I'm getting intrigued with trying some skating on streets and roads
around Milano or Cremona or Vicenza -- or see what Torino is like now after
the Olympics.

Ken

On Jan 29, 5:06 pm, "Ken Roberts" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

sergio wrote

Quoted message said:

The Piste Ciclabili are usually poor in signs and not at all well
connected one to the next one.

Thanks for the warning about the bicycle paths.

When I said there were "gentle roads" in the Po valley I meant roads and
streets for motor vehicles. I normally much prefer vehicle roads over
bicycle paths for both my cycling and my skating -- because roads and
streets usually have more interesting sights and more interesting terrain.
And the roads often have a road surface than the "piste ciclabili" -- like I
remember some of the bicycle paths along the river Tiber and the Via Appia
Antica around Rome were covered with cobblestones (? "sanpietri" ?)

...

Quoted message said:

Ken

The Ciclopista del Brenta, which connects with the (work-in-progress)
Ciclopista del Sole, is well-paved from around Levico Terme to Forte
Tombion just north of Cismon del Grappa, where it joins the paved 2-
lane road along the Brenta River (opposite bank from the SS47 highway)
into Bassano del Grappa. The "ciclopista" continues into the Po delta
plain into Mestre-Venice, but follows ordinary secondary roads; at the
other end, it extends from Levico Terme to Trento, though I've not
ridden that stretch.

As Sergio says, sometimes it can be a challenge to spot the turns
which keep you on the intended path. Signage in the Valsugana has
improved vastly in recent years, though I haven't ridden all the way
towards Levico Terme in many years.

dorkypants said:

As Sergio says, sometimes it can be a challenge to spot the turns
which keep you on the intended path. Signage in the Valsugana has
improved vastly in recent years, though I haven't ridden all the way
towards Levico Terme in many years.

Funny!
Just a few days ago a friend of mine from Vicenza was telling me that
the bicycle path along Valsugana is nice, though not entirely
complete.

Myself, I always ride regular roads, just about anywhere.
I would certainly avoid the Statale along Valsugana, and many other
roads elsewhere, even if bikes would be allowed.

There is a problem in this country. Roads are seldom identified by
their number and it might be difficult to take correct turns. You may
also end up on a Superstrada (no bikes allowed here) without previous
warning; this happened to me while going back into Milano from Lecco.
Or be led to the entrance of a bad tunnel with no alternative bypass.

About the many flat roads in the Veneto region it can safely said that
they are usually very busy, and often narrow.

This said, I very much prefer to ride hills.

Sergio
Pisa

sergio wrote

Quoted message said:

About the many flat roads in the Veneto region it can
safely said that they are usually very busy, and often narrow.

That's a good warning. Fortunately my few experiences around there so far
have been better. Maybe I've just been lucky.

Or maybe it's that I have a completely different approach for riding and
skating on gentle terrain like the Veneto plain. I think riding on less busy
roads requires making lots of turns and stopping in every little village to
look at map, and sometimes having to make some guesses about which road to
take when you're not sure where you are. For many of the long-distance
touring cyclists, all those turns and stops and map-reading and guessing are
obstacles which delay or even prevent achievement of the _big objective_ --
to arrive at the next important tourist site listed in some guidebook. But
for Sharon and me, "stop in every little village" and "make some guesses"
and "not sure where" _are_ the big objective of our bicycling in Italy. We
succeed in finding non-busy roads because that's our main game and we've had
lots of practice at it.

Or another possibility is that maybe since I live in a generally not
"bicycling-friendly" country (USA), I have lower expectations, so it's
easier for me to feel happy. But it's not that I've never been to places
with easier bicycling. And it's tricky, because if you ask me which
country's road and path network is better designed to be "friendly" for
bicycling or skating, my answer is definitely Germany (since I have not been
to Denmark). But if you ask me where do I prefer to spend lots more time
riding and skating, my answer is definitely Italy. Although I admit that's
mainly because of the riding in the hills in Italy -- but then I usually
prefer routes that go near or on hills anywhere I ride.

Ken

On Jan 30, 2:57 pm, "Ken Roberts" <iKen7Roberts7-
[email hidden]>
..That's a good warning. Fortunately my few experiences around there so
far

Quoted message said:

have been better. Maybe I've just been lucky.

Just curious: tell me an itinerary in flatland Veneto that you
enjoyed.
I am mostly familiar with the province of Treviso.

But if you ask me where do I prefer to spend lots more time

Quoted message said:

riding and skating, my answer is definitely Italy. Although I admit that's
mainly because of the riding in the hills in Italy -- but then I usually
prefer routes that go near or on hills anywhere I ride.

Quoted message said:

From such a point of view, I doubt anyone would disagree.

Sergio
Pisa
..

I'm with Sergio, I prefer to ride in the hills and mountains. To me
navigating the roads in the Veneto plain is like the old text-
adventure game whose name escapes me right now: "you're stuck in a
maze of twisty little passages, all alike". From a distance one hamlet
with a campanile towering over it looks pretty much like any other,
and in the summer haze, it can sometimes be hard to tell where the
mountains are or tell the position of the sun (in order to figure out
where north is).

TCI maps don't do a good job of covering the small local roads, as
their focus is more on roads that drivers use to get from A to B.
Local provincial maps are typically out-of-date (i.e., prone to show
roads that are no longer there or perhaps were projected but never
built, and/or not show roads that ARE there), if not inclined to
"poetic license" (one shows the fork at the top of the climb from
Romano d'Ezzelino to Mt. Grappa going the OPPOSITE direction from the
actual road!). Hi-res satellite photo images available on Google Maps,
Google Earth are more informative. Tuttocitta.it is pretty good too,
with the drawback that they completely blank out anything outside the
national boundaries of Italy (e.g., there's no info on the route from
Passo Stelvio which cuts through Switzerland).

The same applies to maps of Piemonte, by the way. So I've taken to
carrying a GPS to record where I've been on my bike in order to make
my own maps.

dorkypants said:

I'm with Sergio,

Thanks, so let's get down to more detailed info.

(one shows the fork at the top of the climb from

Quoted message said:

Romano d'Ezzelino to Mt. Grappa going the OPPOSITE direction from the
actual road!).

The Massiccio del Monte Grappa is a case in itself. There are so many
different, and so challanging to beware of, roads up there, including
Monte Tomba of course, that one would never imagine.

Tuttocitta.it is pretty good too,

Quoted message said:

with the drawback that they completely blank out anything outside the
national boundaries of Italy (e.g., there's no info on the route from
Passo Stelvio which cuts through Switzerland).

But every good cyclist 'should' be familiar with Umbrail!

I know nothing at all about Tuttocitta'. The TCI 1/200000 maps are all
you need to cycle on regular roads. Even an old edition serves well. A
new road is almost invariably a four-lane or something you would not
take anyhow; the only real problem is with new local detours thgrough
tunnels or tunnels that have been joined and turned into a much longer
quagmire for a cyclist. Of which there are a good number,
unfortunately.

Quoted message said:

The same applies to maps of Piemonte, by the way. So I've taken to
carrying a GPS to record where I've been on my bike in order to make
my own maps.

That appears to be an unnecessary luxury, to me.

Sergio
Pisa

Sounds like the three of us all prefer hills.

Quoted message said:

Just curious: tell me an itinerary in flatland
Veneto that you enjoyed.

Short answer: I don't know about an "itinerary", but here's some areas with
gentle, lower-traffic roads that I'd go back to:
** between Mestre and Treviso, around the 13 road but not on it, _between_
the cities but not actually going into or out of them.
** in the Brenta river delta between Padova and Mestre (but not into
either city), around Camponogara and Dolo. (What I would _not_ want to do
again was skate from there _into_ the city of Padova.)
I don't remember my exact route, but it seemed there were enough low-traffic
roads around there that it would be fun to explore more again for a short
day, and likely I'd choose some roads + villages differently. (But actually
for bicycling I usually prefer an area that has more hills, and I've know
some of those I'd go back to also.)

Overall in the general region around the Po river, each time I've wanted to
find some riding or skating out in the gentle farmland away from cities on
low-traffic roads, I'd make a guess from the TCI 1:200000 map, drive my car
to the area, got my bicycle out and the riding was pretty much like I was
hoping. Maybe I've just been lucky. Or maybe it was because I focused on a
single objective which I'm good at.

Fun challenge? How about you pick a gentle area in Po region which I've
never been to before, somewhere between Torino and Verona, and I'll make up
my own loop route and try to skate it, and I'll report back on how it
worked.

Ken
______________________
Long answer:
When I see the word "itinerary" I'm not sure how to respond, because I
usually just do single-day loop tours on my bicycle or skates to have fun
and exercise. Or if I've already arrived in a town or city, it's nice to
ride or skate or walk around on the streets. But for a bigger journey to
some "important" destination, like from one city to another (an
"itinerary"?), Sharon and I just drive there in a car. I think that's how
most bicyclists who live in France + Switzerland + Germany + Italy do most
of their riding and traveling when in Europe. (And how most American
bicyclists do it when riding in their home region in America).

Like I heard that Parma was a nice bicycling town, but I did not go there by
riding on my bicycle -- I drove my rental car to Parma, and then rode my
bicycle around on the city streets at night. Another day I did some riding
on gentle farmland south of Parma -- seemed like there's lots of low-traffic
roads there. And another day I tried a little further south in the Apennine
hills, and rode around Monte Caio -- but I didn't ride from Parma to the
Apennines. I first drove my car to Tizzano V Parma and started my loop
riding from closer to the mountain.

I suspect that in most of Italy having an "itinerary" tends to get in the
way of fun riding, and makes it harder to find low-traffic roads. One
problem is that an "itinerary" tends to make you want to try ride _into_
cities, and that often makes it difficult to avoid high-traffic roads,
unless you have special local knowledge.

Ken,
you gave a very good answer. I see that you meant taking well
chosen daily
tours, and what you say is quite appropriate, and correct.

A few years ago I did an off-season journey by bike from Borgomanero
to Montebelluna, through Pavia, Casalpusterlengo, Cremona, Mantova,
Padova and Treviso. Believe me, it was some experience, though not a
surprise at all for me.

Going back to how one can find his way around, only a week ago I was
in Padova and after dining at friends' I had to drive over to my
overnight lodging, in Piazzola sul Brenta.
Luckily I had a (borrowed) GPS machine with me: no way I would have
been able to find the Hotel by just consulting my, inseparable, TCI
atlas and searching for road signs.

So long

Sergio
Pisa

sergio said:

I know nothing at all about Tuttocitta'. The TCI 1/200000 maps are all
you need to cycle on regular roads. Even an old edition serves well. A
new road is almost invariably a four-lane or something you would not
take anyhow; the only real problem is with new local detours thgrough
tunnels or tunnels that have been joined and turned into a much longer
quagmire for a cyclist. Of which there are a good number,
unfortunately.

I respectfully disagree. I'm pretty sure the TCI maps don't show a
very quiet back roads route from Romano d'Ezzelino to Asolo that I've
done lots of times, nor the back roads route from Bassano del Grappa
to Marostica which avoids most of the high-traffic provincial road
which is the direct route between the two. In fact, neither route was
to be found on any printed maps (I finally found a map about 3 years
ago which showed the roads for the Asolo route, but it had errors
elsewhere). The map websites have all of these details (to be fair,
they are of much more recent vintage, and Google only added hi-res
imagery and map data for Italy starting about 2006--in time for the
Winter Olympics in Torino).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The same applies to maps of Piemonte, by the way. So I've taken to
carrying a GPS to record where I've been on my bike in order to make
my own maps.

That appears to be an unnecessary luxury, to me.

Personal experience. None of the maps I've used has been accurate,
especially in the flatlands. I need accurate maps for my paying
customers on my tours. Therefore, I use the GPS recorded tracks
overlaid on existing maps. Cyclists exploring on their own for
recreation, I agree, can probably cope with errors on the maps they
carry without resort to a GPS. Anyway, I use a unit which only cost me
$120 (Garmin ForeRunner 201), not one of those full-blown in-car
navigation gadgets which run $500-plus, and it's been well worth it.

dorkypants said:

Quoted message said:

I know nothing at all about Tuttocitta'. The TCI 1/200000 maps are all
you need to cycle on regular roads. Even an old edition serves well.

I respectfully disagree. I'm pretty sure the TCI maps don't show a
very quiet back roads route from Romano d'Ezzelino to Asolo that I've
done lots of times, nor the back roads route from Bassano del Grappa
to Marostica which avoids ...

Then, it just boils down to semantics. When I said 'regular' roads, I
meant exactly those that one would call backroads, whether paved ot
not.
Everywhere in this country, more in flatland than on the mountains,
you would find backroads not reported at the 1/200000 level.

This said, I admit you know the Bassano, Asolo, Marostica area better
than I do, although I am rather well acquainted with it.
In fact, after staying in Piazzola sul Brenta overnight, I carried
over to Marostica, met a friend outside the Battaglin Cycle Factory
and did a morning loop ride in the area, just less than two weeks
ago.

Sergio
Pisa