Italian/steel frames need more prep?

Phil said:

I got my new MTB frame in the mail yesterday, and the first thing I
noticed was that it was totally clean. Spotless. Greaseless.

Oh and the MTB frame didn't smell like anything, it was so clean. Those of
us that work at shops know how bad it is when a bike comes in all stinky.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil said:

Now, flashback to two weeks ago. A customer's crash-replacement
Made-in-Italy Bianchi Pinella frame ($1800 retail) comes in for me to
build up, and although there's no problems on painted areas, there's
virtually no attention to detail when it comes to the bottom bracket or
headset! There's [censored] strewn everywhere inside the BB (even bits I can
break off with my fingernail), there's bubbling on the opposing side of
the welds, it's totally unfinished with paint all up in the threads, and
the headtube looks plain discolored and ugly.

Though this is an extreme case,the principle of it is normal.Example: I have
a 500 Euro italian Espresso machine here that'salways leaking, whilst a
cheap german machine I have too is neatly finished. I prefer the italian
one, though, because it has a "soul". It was made "con amore".

Just open the hood of an Italian car and the one of a German car and
compare. This is a cultural thing.

Greets, Derk

Squid-in-Training said:

I got my new MTB frame in the mail yesterday, and the first thing I noticed
was that it was totally clean. Spotless. Greaseless. Honed, sparkling,
radiant. The BB shell was clean with no paint in the threads, the headtube
the same, and the dropouts properly prepped with no paint where the axle
sits. This was a $200 MTB frame from Taiwan.

Now, flashback to two weeks ago. A customer's crash-replacement
Made-in-Italy Bianchi Pinella frame ($1800 retail) comes in for me to build
up, and although there's no problems on painted areas, there's virtually no
attention to detail when it comes to the bottom bracket or headset! There's
[censored] strewn everywhere inside the BB (even bits I can break off with my
fingernail), there's bubbling on the opposing side of the welds, it's
totally unfinished with paint all up in the threads, and the headtube looks
plain discolored and ugly.

That's "old world craftmanship" and "character" for you. Not some
soulless thing from Asia.

JT

****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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Phil said:

I got my new MTB frame in the mail yesterday, and the first thing I noticed
was that it was totally clean. Spotless. Greaseless. Honed, sparkling,
radiant. The BB shell was clean with no paint in the threads, the headtube
the same, and the dropouts properly prepped with no paint where the axle
sits. This was a $200 MTB frame from Taiwan.

Now, flashback to two weeks ago. A customer's crash-replacement
Made-in-Italy Bianchi Pinella frame ($1800 retail) comes in for me to build
up, and although there's no problems on painted areas, there's virtually no
attention to detail when it comes to the bottom bracket or headset! There's
[censored] strewn everywhere inside the BB (even bits I can break off with my
fingernail), there's bubbling on the opposing side of the welds, it's
totally unfinished with paint all up in the threads, and the headtube looks
plain discolored and ugly.

This was a steel frame, so I don't know if the rules governing steel are
different from aluminum, but upon first look, I would have been ashamed if I
were a framebuilder and let one go out like that. Sure there's prep
required on the bike shop end, but can there really be so little workmanship
pride on these high-end frames? What am I missing here?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

In that high end frame. I have seen poor prep and workmanship from just
about every frame maker out there, European, Chinese, Tiawanese, US,
depends. Alternatively, I have seen spectacular workmanship from small
builders, like Nobilette and Mondonico. It's not because of steel, it's
because of the bike biz being flat for so long and poor workmanship.
They do not attract the craft-people they once did, except for asia...

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

It's not because of steel, it's because of the bike biz being flat
for so long and poor workmanship. They do not attract the
craft-people they once did, except for asia...

The asia 200$ frame is not a product of dedicated craft-people
executing great workmanship for personal satisfaction. It's the
result of industrial production with state of the art technology and
quality management. Doesn't lessen the quality of work on the
worker's side, but it's a different driver.

--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer

On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 00:57:28 -0500, "Phil, Squid-in-Training"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

"People will put up with [censored] in a Ferrari they'd never tolerate in a Fiat."

Over the years, the Italian builders have developed a reputation that does not
require neatness. You didn't say anything about file marks on the lugs, they
must be getting better.

Ron

In article <[email hidden]>,

Derk said:

Phil said:

Now, flashback to two weeks ago. A customer's crash-replacement
Made-in-Italy Bianchi Pinella frame ($1800 retail) comes in for me to
build up, and although there's no problems on painted areas, there's
virtually no attention to detail when it comes to the bottom bracket or
headset! There's [censored] strewn everywhere inside the BB (even bits I can
break off with my fingernail), there's bubbling on the opposing side of
the welds, it's totally unfinished with paint all up in the threads, and
the headtube looks plain discolored and ugly.

Though this is an extreme case,the principle of it is normal.Example: I have
a 500 Euro italian Espresso machine here that'salways leaking, whilst a
cheap german machine I have too is neatly finished. I prefer the italian
one, though, because it has a "soul". It was made "con amore".

Just open the hood of an Italian car and the one of a German car and
compare. This is a cultural thing.

Greets, Derk

Derk, you know why the Germans don't bother to make the stuff under the
hood look pretty? Because nobody ever has to look there.

....wish this was true, since my mildly demented '98 VW Beetle is
displaying its check engine light as we speak. A few months ago, the
driver door nearly spontaneously fell off after two hinge bolts broke.
Don't ask me how that ever possibly happens.

....then again, New Beetles are hecho en Mexico, for what that's worth.

....then again, I'm not sure most national generalizations hold up. The
under-hood area of the 1st-gen Porsche 928 is very pretty (spider-like
intake manifold with wiggly runners), while there is a vast succession
of Alfas and Fiats with boring and ugly engines in them.

ObBike: given how fast I ride, sometimes in traffic, I vote for
soullessness. Those vampire-and-zombie constructed frames from Taiwan
tend not to be exciting in such circumstances. Who knows when the amore
may all run out of a crucial lug, leaving your butt alfresco con le pave?

....then again, I have a perfectly respectable Pinarello and Bianchi in
the shed.

....then again, the Bianchi was made in Japan.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

RonSonic said:

On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 00:57:28 -0500, "Phil, Squid-in-Training"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

"People will put up with [censored] in a Ferrari they'd never tolerate in a
Fiat."

Over the years, the Italian builders have developed a reputation that
does not require neatness. You didn't say anything about file marks
on the lugs, they must be getting better.

TIG.

File marks??? I can add character to any frame with a big hammer...

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Quoted message said:

Though this is an extreme case,the principle of it is normal.Example:
I have a 500 Euro italian Espresso machine here that'salways leaking,
whilst a cheap german machine I have too is neatly finished. I prefer
the italian one, though, because it has a "soul". It was made "con
amore".

Derk, it's funny you mention that. I am actually doing a senior mech
engineering design project involving espresso machines. You're actually the
target group that I'm designing for. Could you contact me off-list at
phil_lee at hotmail dot com?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil said:

Quoted message said:

Though this is an extreme case,the principle of it is normal.Example:
I have a 500 Euro italian Espresso machine here that'salways leaking,
whilst a cheap german machine I have too is neatly finished. I prefer
the italian one, though, because it has a "soul". It was made "con
amore".

Derk, it's funny you mention that. I am actually doing a senior mech
engineering design project involving espresso machines. You're actually the
target group that I'm designing for. Could you contact me off-list at
phil_lee at hotmail dot com?

Phil, baby, there is an entire subculture of hopped-up espresso machine
DIYers. Try alt.rec.coffee or CoffeeGeek. I have an Italian machine
that is quite beautiful inside and out. Any leak was cured with a
gasket or repositioning a set screw.

As for Italian steel frames, some are beautiful inside and out -- and
some are not. It has been that way forever. Back in the '70s, most
any domestic custom made frame was cleaner inside and better alligned
than most of thel Italian small-production frames (Colnago, etc.).
But, then again, those Italian frames had soul! The American frames
were nicely brazed and straight (more durable paint, too) -- but
souless. -- Jay Beattie.

In article <K3%Wf.4014$fS6.209@dukeread11>,
"Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Though this is an extreme case,the principle of it is normal.Example:
I have a 500 Euro italian Espresso machine here that'salways leaking,
whilst a cheap german machine I have too is neatly finished. I prefer
the italian one, though, because it has a "soul". It was made "con
amore".

Derk, it's funny you mention that. I am actually doing a senior mech
engineering design project involving espresso machines. You're actually the
target group that I'm designing for. Could you contact me off-list at
phil_lee at hotmail dot com?

Hey, I'd totally love to design an espresso machine for a target group
that doesn't mind if it leaks.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <K3%Wf.4014$fS6.209@dukeread11>,
"Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Though this is an extreme case,the principle of it is normal.Example:
I have a 500 Euro italian Espresso machine here that'salways leaking,
whilst a cheap german machine I have too is neatly finished. I prefer
the italian one, though, because it has a "soul". It was made "con
amore".

Derk, it's funny you mention that. I am actually doing a senior mech
engineering design project involving espresso machines. You're actually the
target group that I'm designing for. Could you contact me off-list at
phil_lee at hotmail dot com?

Hey, I'd totally love to design an espresso machine for a target group
that doesn't mind if it leaks.

Two ideal demographics:

The Jaguar Owners Club

The Lotus Owners Club

Ozark Bicycle said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <K3%Wf.4014$fS6.209@dukeread11>,
"Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

> Though this is an extreme case,the principle of it is normal.Example:
> I have a 500 Euro italian Espresso machine here that'salways leaking,
> whilst a cheap german machine I have too is neatly finished. I prefer
> the italian one, though, because it has a "soul". It was made "con
> amore".

Derk, it's funny you mention that. I am actually doing a senior mech
engineering design project involving espresso machines. You're actually the
target group that I'm designing for. Could you contact me off-list at
phil_lee at hotmail dot com?

Hey, I'd totally love to design an espresso machine for a target group
that doesn't mind if it leaks.

Two ideal demographics:

The Jaguar Owners Club

The Lotus Owners Club

Don't forget Triumph and BSA owners.

Hell, since all these guys have been dealing with Lucas equipment, it won't have
to be all that reliable electrically either.

Ron

RonSonic said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <K3%Wf.4014$fS6.209@dukeread11>,
"Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

> > Though this is an extreme case,the principle of it is normal.Example:
> > I have a 500 Euro italian Espresso machine here that'salways leaking,
> > whilst a cheap german machine I have too is neatly finished. I prefer
> > the italian one, though, because it has a "soul". It was made "con
> > amore".
>
> Derk, it's funny you mention that. I am actually doing a senior mech
> engineering design project involving espresso machines. You're actually the
> target group that I'm designing for. Could you contact me off-list at
> phil_lee at hotmail dot com?

Hey, I'd totally love to design an espresso machine for a target group
that doesn't mind if it leaks.

Two ideal demographics:

The Jaguar Owners Club

The Lotus Owners Club

Don't forget Triumph and BSA owners.

Hell, since all these guys have been dealing with Lucas equipment, it won't have
to be all that reliable electrically either.

The Prince of Darkness has announced there will be no espresso today.
Try a warm beer instead. ;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Two ideal demographics:

The Jaguar Owners Club

The Lotus Owners Club

Don't forget Triumph and BSA owners.

Hell, since all these guys have been dealing with Lucas equipment, it
won't have
to be all that reliable electrically either.

Ron

You beat me to it. Wonder if there are any more of those T-shirts around
with "Lucas Electrics- Prince of Darkness" on them?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Quoted message said:

In that high end frame. I have seen poor prep and workmanship from just
about every frame maker out there, European, Chinese, Tiawanese, US,
depends. Alternatively, I have seen spectacular workmanship from small
builders, like Nobilette and Mondonico. It's not because of steel, it's
because of the bike biz being flat for so long and poor workmanship.
They do not attract the craft-people they once did, except for asia...

But it's not just about what is produced, but also what is demanded. The
general public doesn't seem to care about what's under the hood... they just
want a pretty paint job. The smallest flaw in the paint becomes far more
important than anything else you might try to show and/or explain to
somebody. This disconnect is extreme between new (customers) & old-world
(traditional craftsman) thinking... the craftsman is often more concerned
with how things have always been, and making something that is extremely
functional. This contrasts with the Asian model, which seems to focus first
on something that appears to be superior (because the outside appearance is
the easiest for people to judge) and only later does quality become a major
issue. The public, given a choice between something that's cheap and appears
high-quality, and something that costs more, is higher-quality but doesn't
appear much different... well, you and I both know which they'll want to
buy.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Phil said:

I got my new MTB frame in the mail yesterday, and the first thing I
noticed
was that it was totally clean. Spotless. Greaseless. Honed, sparkling,
radiant. The BB shell was clean with no paint in the threads, the
headtube
the same, and the dropouts properly prepped with no paint where the axle
sits. This was a $200 MTB frame from Taiwan.

Now, flashback to two weeks ago. A customer's crash-replacement
Made-in-Italy Bianchi Pinella frame ($1800 retail) comes in for me to
build
up, and although there's no problems on painted areas, there's virtually
no
attention to detail when it comes to the bottom bracket or headset!
There's
[censored] strewn everywhere inside the BB (even bits I can break off with my
fingernail), there's bubbling on the opposing side of the welds, it's
totally unfinished with paint all up in the threads, and the headtube
looks
plain discolored and ugly.

This was a steel frame, so I don't know if the rules governing steel are
different from aluminum, but upon first look, I would have been ashamed
if I
were a framebuilder and let one go out like that. Sure there's prep
required on the bike shop end, but can there really be so little
workmanship
pride on these high-end frames? What am I missing here?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

In that high end frame. I have seen poor prep and workmanship from just
about every frame maker out there, European, Chinese, Tiawanese, US,
depends. Alternatively, I have seen spectacular workmanship from small
builders, like Nobilette and Mondonico. It's not because of steel, it's
because of the bike biz being flat for so long and poor workmanship.
They do not attract the craft-people they once did, except for asia...

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

In that high end frame. I have seen poor prep and workmanship from
just about every frame maker out there, European, Chinese,
Tiawanese, US, depends. Alternatively, I have seen spectacular
workmanship from small builders, like Nobilette and Mondonico. It's
not because of steel, it's because of the bike biz being flat for so
long and poor workmanship. They do not attract the craft-people they
once did, except for asia...

But it's not just about what is produced, but also what is demanded.
The general public doesn't seem to care about what's under the
hood... they just want a pretty paint job. The smallest flaw in the
paint becomes far more important than anything else you might try to
show and/or explain to somebody. This disconnect is extreme between
new (customers) & old-world (traditional craftsman) thinking... the
craftsman is often more concerned with how things have always been,
and making something that is extremely functional. This contrasts
with the Asian model, which seems to focus first on something that
appears to be superior (because the outside appearance is the easiest
for people to judge) and only later does quality become a major
issue. The public, given a choice between something that's cheap and
appears high-quality, and something that costs more, is
higher-quality but doesn't appear much different... well, you and I
both know which they'll want to buy.

Can you explain which particular models or brands you are referring to? Are
you referring to walmart bikes vs. cheaper bike shop bikes?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

In article <[email hidden]>,

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Two ideal demographics:

The Jaguar Owners Club

The Lotus Owners Club

Don't forget Triumph and BSA owners.

Hell, since all these guys have been dealing with Lucas equipment, it
won't have
to be all that reliable electrically either.

Ron

You beat me to it. Wonder if there are any more of those T-shirts around
with "Lucas Electrics- Prince of Darkness" on them?

Until the last magdyno goes dim, there will always be a Lucas-jibing
novelty t-shirt.

True story: I helped my father rewind a magneto for his 1958 AJS by
hand. A magneto has about a mile of hair-fine wire (actually, slightly
finer than a human hair) in it. Fortunately, an instrument tech at his
place of work taught him a technique for welding wire breaks using a
lighter.

More relevant to this thread: the fun thing about mid-1960s motorcycle
magazines is how they referred to various bikes as "very oil-tight" or
"especially oil-tight." Then the Japanese motorcycles arrived, andy
everyone discovered that "oil-tight" didn't need an adjective. They just
didn't leak oil.

Here's my thoughts on this matter of soulful frames:

1) soul is shorthand for "my riding buddies are impressed by
heritagenous Italian frame names."

2) facing and chasing should be done at the frame shop, not the bike
shop. There is nothing in the frame faces that will change between
departure from the manufacturer's door and the start of bike assembly,
and there is no advantage to having bike shops do it one-by-one, unlike
custom parts specs, where the shop has the competitive advantage of
having the customer (who may have unusually long arms and a singleminded
desire for a MegaExo BB) in front of them and the ability to choose from
a wide range of parts. If frames aren't coming square from the factory
(especially if they're Ti) then heaven help us. We used to accept
horizontal dropouts mainly because the framebuilders couldn't do
vertical dropouts accurately, but they got over that.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 05:45:10 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In that high end frame. I have seen poor prep and workmanship from just
about every frame maker out there, European, Chinese, Tiawanese, US,
depends. Alternatively, I have seen spectacular workmanship from small
builders, like Nobilette and Mondonico. It's not because of steel, it's
because of the bike biz being flat for so long and poor workmanship.
They do not attract the craft-people they once did, except for asia...

But it's not just about what is produced, but also what is demanded. The
general public doesn't seem to care about what's under the hood... they just
want a pretty paint job. The smallest flaw in the paint becomes far more
important than anything else you might try to show and/or explain to
somebody. This disconnect is extreme between new (customers) & old-world
(traditional craftsman) thinking... the craftsman is often more concerned
with how things have always been, and making something that is extremely
functional. This contrasts with the Asian model, which seems to focus first
on something that appears to be superior (because the outside appearance is
the easiest for people to judge) and only later does quality become a major
issue.

A lot probably has to do with why they're building the bike, or rather how it is
they ended up making bikes instead of lighting trusses or landing gear or
exhaust manifolds.

There is a long history of bike building in, say, Italy with a tradition of how
things are done and what's important. Some factory town in China has no idea of
that. All they know is that XYZ-Megacorp will pay them more to make bikes than
ABC-Maxicorp paid for the lawn furniture. The spec sheet and the company qc rep
says make it look like so, and it does.

There may also me a benevolent form of inexperience at work. The emeging country
manufacturers aren't confident of just what they can get away with.

Ron

Quoted message said:

The public, given a choice between something that's cheap and appears
high-quality, and something that costs more, is higher-quality but doesn't
appear much different... well, you and I both know which they'll want to
buy.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Phil said:

I got my new MTB frame in the mail yesterday, and the first thing I
noticed
was that it was totally clean. Spotless. Greaseless. Honed, sparkling,
radiant. The BB shell was clean with no paint in the threads, the
headtube
the same, and the dropouts properly prepped with no paint where the axle
sits. This was a $200 MTB frame from Taiwan.

Now, flashback to two weeks ago. A customer's crash-replacement
Made-in-Italy Bianchi Pinella frame ($1800 retail) comes in for me to
build
up, and although there's no problems on painted areas, there's virtually
no
attention to detail when it comes to the bottom bracket or headset!
There's
[censored] strewn everywhere inside the BB (even bits I can break off with my
fingernail), there's bubbling on the opposing side of the welds, it's
totally unfinished with paint all up in the threads, and the headtube
looks
plain discolored and ugly.

This was a steel frame, so I don't know if the rules governing steel are
different from aluminum, but upon first look, I would have been ashamed
if I
were a framebuilder and let one go out like that. Sure there's prep
required on the bike shop end, but can there really be so little
workmanship
pride on these high-end frames? What am I missing here?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

In that high end frame. I have seen poor prep and workmanship from just
about every frame maker out there, European, Chinese, Tiawanese, US,
depends. Alternatively, I have seen spectacular workmanship from small
builders, like Nobilette and Mondonico. It's not because of steel, it's
because of the bike biz being flat for so long and poor workmanship.
They do not attract the craft-people they once did, except for asia...