It's not road rage but a mental disorder...

warrwych said:

tinyurl.comkuduyOpen ↗

So when someone has a massive 4WD dummy spit (ie a "clinically significant anger attack"😉 at you on your bike, they can truly plead mentally disturbed.

Hmm, might start lobbing tin cans at passing cars - my seratonin levels made me do it Your Honour :p

Further over-medicalisation of a so called 'symptom'. Let's be honest about this, road rage is *really* poor impulse control by another moniker.

cfsmtb said:

Further over-medicalisation of a so called 'symptom'. Let's be honest about this, road rage is *really* poor impulse control by another moniker.

Absolutely. To blame biochemicals simply abrogates personal responsibility (the devil made me do it, I had no control) and turns the attacker into victim. Where does this leave the recipient of the rage? Fits in neatly with sorry, I didn't see you, you need more lights, get out of the fecking way, I am late for a meeting, I pay road taxes and it's my road etc etc mentalities.

Would be interested to see that defence in action in court.... it would probably work under the current climate of feeling sorry for the driver (unless they are male and under 30 [complete revhead stereotype here]).

warrwych said:

cfsmtb said:

Further over-medicalisation of a so called 'symptom'. Let's be honest
about this, road rage is *really* poor impulse control by another
moniker.

Absolutely. To blame biochemicals simply abrogates personal
responsibility (the devil made me do it, I had no control) and turns
the attacker into victim.

I don't agree. It looks like you're confusing understanding with
condoning.

It's one thing to understand why things happen, and another altogether
to deal with them in an apropriate way.

Quoted message said:

Where does this leave the recipient of the
rage? Fits in neatly with sorry, I didn't see you, you need more
lights, get out of the fecking way, I am late for a meeting, I pay road
taxes and it's my road etc etc mentalities.

No, it doesn't. Not at all. It fits in with "this is why it happened",
not "this is how the people involved will be dealt with" or (and even
more importantly!) "we can now come up with some strategies for
reducing the likelyhood of it happening again". If you don't
understand why something happens, you have almost no chance of changing
it.

"warrwych" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://tinyurl.com/kuduy

So when someone has a massive 4WD dummy spit (ie a "clinically
significant anger attack"😉 at you on your bike, they can truly plead
mentally disturbed.

Hmm, might start lobbing tin cans at passing cars - my seratonin levels
made me do it Your Honour :p

--
warrwych

The motor car is a wonderful thing. It allows tantrums, which should be over
at the age of 5, to continue into supposed adulthood, as the driver toots
his horn, revs his engine and does wheelies, his anonymity protected in his
car. I often get these little "bursts" of rage as I commute and drivers come
up from behind.

Henry.

quote='Bleve'warrwych said:

cfsmtb said:

Further over-medicalisation of a so called 'symptom'. Let's be honest
about this, road rage is *really* poor impulse control by another
moniker.

Absolutely. To blame biochemicals simply abrogates personal
responsibility (the devil made me do it, I had no control) and turns
the attacker into victim.

I don't agree. It looks like you're confusing understanding with
condoning.

It's one thing to understand why things happen, and another altogether
to deal with them in an apropriate way.

Quoted message said:

Where does this leave the recipient of the
rage? Fits in neatly with sorry, I didn't see you, you need more
lights, get out of the fecking way, I am late for a meeting, I pay road
taxes and it's my road etc etc mentalities.

No, it doesn't. Not at all. It fits in with "this is why it happened",
not "this is how the people involved will be dealt with" or (and even
more importantly!) "we can now come up with some strategies for
reducing the likelyhood of it happening again". If you don't
understand why something happens, you have almost no chance of changing
it.[/QUOTE]

I get where your coming from Bleve, but it also provides an easy cop out for people. Also, diagnosis usually comes after the fact. I get grumpy in the mornings from mixed up biochemicals/hormones from lack of sleep & hard training, but that doesn't mean I actually express the instant rage I feel when someone else has taken the last of the milk for breakfast. Look at the incidence of ADD & ADHD. Has diagnosis actually helped (m)any of those people in a real world way? Mostly not; they are now have a convenient label and can take a tablet that may or may not work, the side effects of which may be worse. And I think the article is referring more to "random acts of rage" rather than chronic rage attacks, which are more identifiable as problematic.

hemyd said:

The motor car is a wonderful thing. It allows tantrums, which should be over
at the age of 5, to continue into supposed adulthood, as the driver toots
his horn, revs his engine and does wheelies, his anonymity protected in his
car. I often get these little "bursts" of rage as I commute and drivers come
up from behind.

Do you see a lot of cars doing wheelies?

..

quote='Bleve'hemyd said:

The motor car is a wonderful thing. It allows tantrums, which should be over
at the age of 5, to continue into supposed adulthood, as the driver toots
his horn, revs his engine and does wheelies, his anonymity protected in his
car. I often get these little "bursts" of rage as I commute and drivers come
up from behind.

Do you see a lot of cars doing wheelies?

..[/QUOTE]

come to the Latrobe Valley maaaaaaayyyaaaate......
😄 😄

"Bleve" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

hemyd said:

The motor car is a wonderful thing. It allows tantrums, which should be
over
at the age of 5, to continue into supposed adulthood, as the driver toots
his horn, revs his engine and does wheelies, his anonymity protected in
his
car. I often get these little "bursts" of rage as I commute and drivers
come
up from behind.

Do you see a lot of cars doing wheelies?

For some of us more ...err... "distinguished" riders, wheelies used to be
the term for spinning wheels. Motorbikes didn't do wheelies then
(apparently), and moto riders call them monos nowadays. I think hemyd was
just using the term wheelie to describe spinning wheels. I still do
sometimes.

In my case, yes, I often see cars spinning up their wheels - watched one
come an intersection sideways then fishtailing up the road this morning.
Amusingly, this seemed to cause a P plater waiting at the lights to want to
take him on - green arrow --> rev loudly --> spin wheels --> realise it's an
arrow, and not for him --> slam on brakes --> reverse --> look sheepish -->
cyclist sniggers and beats him across lights when they do change.

Tony F

warrwych said:

...
Look at the incidence of ADD & ADHD. Has diagnosis actually helped (m)any of those people in a real world way? Mostly not; they are now have a convenient label and can take a tablet that may or may not work, the side effects of which may be worse.
...

Diagnosis has at least helped us understand that there is a problem in society with behaviour that has changed over the years - both ADHD and . You can't address a problem unless you know it exists. Unfortunately most of our responses to these sorts of issues are more reactionary than preventative - pop a pill to fix it. That is what needs to be addressed. Identifying that people are having brain chemical issues doesn't forgive their behaviour, but it may help to find causes like the diesel fumes from 4wds or psychological damage from spending hours per week in a small poorly ventilated metal cage having to look at baby on board signs on the cage in front.

That article identified that road rage is a disorder of the mind - a mental illness. It is certainly not a behaviour we would want to be considered normal.

warrwych said:

Look at the incidence of ADD & ADHD. Has diagnosis
actually helped (m)any of those people in a real world way? Mostly not;

An ex of mine was a kindergarden teacher, and yes, I'd say that from
her experience, diagnosis and treatement of ADHD & ADD was useful and
in many cases made a real difference to the kids, and how they affected
the other kids.

Quoted message said:

they are now have a convenient label and can take a tablet that may or
may not work, the side effects of which may be worse. And I think the
article is referring more to "random acts of rage" rather than chronic
rage attacks, which are more identifiable as problematic.

Sure, but again, having an awareness that there are people who have
frequent random rage attacks may help in the way we as a society can
deal with them. Maybe medication, maybe incarceration .. I dunno...
but at least we'd have *some* clue as to what was going on.

We can't throw all the road rage drivers in gaol, but if it's possible
to identify them and keep track of them, and maybe we find that there
isn't actually all that many of them (I recall vaguely reading stats on
property offences, a very small number of people commit the vast
majority of housebreakins, for example and I think this is the case for
a lot of classes of offence) and they get flagged somehow as frequent
offenders ... then perhaps something can be done about them. I know a
kid (about 13 now) who has a low rage threshold issue, he's been kicked
out of at least 3 schools that I know about etc. If he gets a driver's
licence (and he will ...) he'll be one of the most dangerous drivers
around. This stuff could help him (and us! we have to share a planet
with these dangerous people). It's not an excuse, it's an opportunity
to address the fundamental problem.

The alternative is to just say "Joe Blogs went ape, throw him in gaol
for x months", which isn't a sustainable approach, and clearly, doesn't
work for the loonies.

quote='Bleve'warrwych said:

Look at the incidence of ADD & ADHD. Has diagnosis
actually helped (m)any of those people in a real world way? Mostly not;

An ex of mine was a kindergarden teacher, and yes, I'd say that from
her experience, diagnosis and treatement of ADHD & ADD was useful and
in many cases made a real difference to the kids, and how they affected
the other kids.

Quoted message said:

they are now have a convenient label and can take a tablet that may or
may not work, the side effects of which may be worse. And I think the
article is referring more to "random acts of rage" rather than chronic
rage attacks, which are more identifiable as problematic.

Sure, but again, having an awareness that there are people who have
frequent random rage attacks may help in the way we as a society can
deal with them. Maybe medication, maybe incarceration .. I dunno...
but at least we'd have *some* clue as to what was going on.

We can't throw all the road rage drivers in gaol, but if it's possible
to identify them and keep track of them, and maybe we find that there
isn't actually all that many of them (I recall vaguely reading stats on
property offences, a very small number of people commit the vast
majority of housebreakins, for example and I think this is the case for
a lot of classes of offence) and they get flagged somehow as frequent
offenders ... then perhaps something can be done about them. I know a
kid (about 13 now) who has a low rage threshold issue, he's been kicked
out of at least 3 schools that I know about etc. If he gets a driver's
licence (and he will ...) he'll be one of the most dangerous drivers
around. This stuff could help him (and us! we have to share a planet
with these dangerous people). It's not an excuse, it's an opportunity
to address the fundamental problem.

The alternative is to just say "Joe Blogs went ape, throw him in gaol
for x months", which isn't a sustainable approach, and clearly, doesn't
work for the loonies.[/QUOTE]

Agree with all of the above. But how do you determine what is piggery and violent arrogance and what is geniune psychological disorder? For that matter, is not any extreme emotional outburst disordered?

Questions in resolving the issue include: is seratonin permanently hindered and the condition CAN be diagnosed in childhood? Or is the chemical imbalance a consequence of some stimuli or lack there of, and thereof cannot be so readily diagnosed in advanced?

Medicalising rage attacks in this way is fraught with problems and dangers, least of which is the capacity to hide behind the label of rage disorder (or whatever you want to call it). Low seratonin levels do a LOT of things to individuals, so if someone has low levels, because of the RISK of rage attacks (although this might not be an outcome) do you then prohibit them from operating euqipment that might be used in a rage attack?

As sinus notes, the article does raise the issue of road rage not being "normal" behaviour, which must be a good thing.

Society is to blame.

warrwych said:

...
Medicalising rage attacks in this way is fraught with problems and dangers, least of which is the capacity to hide behind the label of rage disorder (or whatever you want to call it). Low seratonin levels do a LOT of things to individuals, so if someone has low levels, because of the RISK of rage attacks (although this might not be an outcome) do you then prohibit them from operating euqipment that might be used in a rage attack?

...

I like that idea of alternative consequences. If you plead not guilty to assault or whatever charge on the basis of "mental illness", then you admit to not being medically competent to drive, so you can't drive. Plead guilty and you cop the sentence.

If only they were caught more often and sentenced more appropriately.

warrwych said:

Agree with all of the above. But how do you determine what is piggery
and violent arrogance and what is geniune psychological disorder? For
that matter, is not any extreme emotional outburst disordered?

I'd suggest the latter, but am not a shrink, nor do I play one on TV 🙂

Quoted message said:

Questions in resolving the issue include: is seratonin permanently
hindered and the condition CAN be diagnosed in childhood? Or is the
chemical imbalance a consequence of some stimuli or lack there of, and
thereof cannot be so readily diagnosed in advanced?

Guessing games. I don't know. Neither do you 🙂

Quoted message said:

Medicalising rage attacks in this way is fraught with problems and
dangers, least of which is the capacity to hide behind the label of
rage disorder (or whatever you want to call it).

This is where I (re!) flag the "understanding is not condoning"
issue again.

Low seratonin levels

Quoted message said:

do a LOT of things to individuals, so if someone has low levels,
because of the RISK of rage attacks (although this might not be an
outcome) do you then prohibit them from operating euqipment that might
be used in a rage attack?

I'm not pretending to have any answers, I'm just suggesting that it's a
damn
good thing to be able to understand why some things happen, and that
understanding why does not justify/excuse/make ok/etc, it *just* means
understanding why.

If more people got that fundamental point ... then again, if more
people understood simple things like probability there'd be no gambling
addicts, no casinos ...

Quoted message said:

As sinus notes, the article does raise the issue of road rage not being
"normal" behaviour, which must be a good thing.

Again, it's not (IMO) about good things or otherwise, it's about trying
to understand a pheonomenon. What then gets done with that
understanding is dependant on, but should not influence, the original
research. The original article said *nothing* about what to do with
this research finding, just that it found some interesting things about
some people who had difficulty controlling their rage.

warrwych said:

Agree with all of the above. But how do you determine what is piggery and violent arrogance and what is geniune psychological disorder? For that matter, is not any extreme emotional outburst disordered?

Questions in resolving the issue include: is seratonin permanently hindered and the condition CAN be diagnosed in childhood? Or is the chemical imbalance a consequence of some stimuli or lack there of, and thereof cannot be so readily diagnosed in advanced?

Medicalising rage attacks in this way is fraught with problems and dangers, least of which is the capacity to hide behind the label of rage disorder (or whatever you want to call it). Low seratonin levels do a LOT of things to individuals, so if someone has low levels, because of the RISK of rage attacks (although this might not be an outcome) do you then prohibit them from operating euqipment that might be used in a rage attack?

As sinus notes, the article does raise the issue of road rage not being "normal" behaviour, which must be a good thing.

It does raise the notion of being able to say to an offender "Your behaviour is aberrant and as it stands, makes you a potential threat if you're controlling a vehicle on public roads. Go and get treatment and we'll give you your license back."

sinus said:

warrwych said:

...
Medicalising rage attacks in this way is fraught with problems and
dangers, least of which is the capacity to hide behind the label of
rage disorder (or whatever you want to call it). Low seratonin levels
do a LOT of things to individuals, so if someone has low levels,
because of the RISK of rage attacks (although this might not be an
outcome) do you then prohibit them from operating euqipment that might
be used in a rage attack?

...

I like that idea of alternative consequences. If you plead not guilty
to assault or whatever charge on the basis of "mental illness", then
you admit to not being medically competent to drive, so you can't
drive. Plead guilty and you cop the sentence.

If only they were caught more often and sentenced more appropriately.

The irony of this is quite nifty. In the old days (when I was paying
attention 🙂 ) it wasn't all that uncommon to hear of people
(murderers, mainly, they get the press) peading insanity to "get off" a
murder charge. Of course, the papers arc up, the talkback lines go
stupid etc etc. What wasn't widely publiciced (not very sexy,
ratings-inducing material) was that often these insane people ended up
detained "at the governor's pleasure", which can be a life sentence in
what used to be "J ward" at Ararat. They may not have been convicted
of the crime as such, but the punishment was (still is? I'm not sure,
will have to ask my old man next time I see him, he's a criminal law
barrister and sees the outcomes of this stuff fairly regularly) at
*least* as severe as a conventional gaol sentence, except no parole, no
sentence length etc.

So, "hiding behind" a disorder may not always be the get out of gaol
card that a lot of people seem to think it is.

cfsmtb said:

Society is to blame.

red cordial, red gatorade, red smarties, red m& ms, red jelly beans, red meat, red cars, red flags, red stop signs also....... o! and that my parents are baby boomers....
😄

Bleve said:

So, "hiding behind" a disorder may not always be the get out of gaol
card that a lot of people seem to think it is.

Further to this, have a read :

dpc.vic.gov.au887da7c98d74a16d4a256516007de941!OpenDocument&Click=Open ↗

It's different in other states, but that's in Victoria.

(heh, I think I helped build that webserver, or at least, some of the
infrastructure to support it 🙂 )

quote='Bleve'sinus said:

warrwych said:

...
Medicalising rage attacks in this way is fraught with problems and
dangers, least of which is the capacity to hide behind the label of
rage disorder (or whatever you want to call it). Low seratonin levels
do a LOT of things to individuals, so if someone has low levels,
because of the RISK of rage attacks (although this might not be an
outcome) do you then prohibit them from operating euqipment that might
be used in a rage attack?

...

I like that idea of alternative consequences. If you plead not guilty
to assault or whatever charge on the basis of "mental illness", then
you admit to not being medically competent to drive, so you can't
drive. Plead guilty and you cop the sentence.

If only they were caught more often and sentenced more appropriately.

The irony of this is quite nifty. In the old days (when I was paying
attention 🙂 ) it wasn't all that uncommon to hear of people
(murderers, mainly, they get the press) peading insanity to "get off" a
murder charge. Of course, the papers arc up, the talkback lines go
stupid etc etc. What wasn't widely publiciced (not very sexy,
ratings-inducing material) was that often these insane people ended up
detained "at the governor's pleasure", which can be a life sentence in
what used to be "J ward" at Ararat. They may not have been convicted
of the crime as such, but the punishment was (still is? I'm not sure,
will have to ask my old man next time I see him, he's a criminal law
barrister and sees the outcomes of this stuff fairly regularly) at
*least* as severe as a conventional gaol sentence, except no parole, no
sentence length etc.

So, "hiding behind" a disorder may not always be the get out of gaol
card that a lot of people seem to think it is.[/QUOTE]

hmm I LIKE it!

But I think it may end up a case of "diminished capacity" rather than "insanity" (Sorry Your Honour, the cyclist was <insert offending actions here>, I lost control of my emotions, and had to run them over...)