Is this legal??

As far as I am aware you cannot be done for speeding on a bike. There are however offences of
"reckless cycling" and "careless and inconsiderate cycling" which I reckon would cover drafting a
van @ 50 mph. £1000 and £200 fines respectively I think.

"Gadget" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have a work colleague who cycles full time, races and time trials, etc.

On

Quoted message said:

Wednesday he was pulled over by the police for tailgating (drafting) a postal transit van. They
were both doing about 50 mph and the speed limit was 40 mph. The police stopped and pulled over my
colleague for speeding

and

Quoted message said:

"reckless road use". They told him that is was illegal to draft vehicles. Now I don't know the law
but is it truly illegal? Dangerous, yes but

illegal

Quoted message said:

I'm not sure. I've seen cars almost in each others boots doing excessive speeds. I know of one
illegal activity that he has done and that was to draft lorries on motorways. One in front and one
behind him, convoy style. Now that's illegal but on A roads?

Many Thanks

Gadget

Gadget said:

I have a work colleague who cycles full time, races and time trials, etc. On Wednesday he was
pulled over by the police

Ah, that most suspicious of offences - "Behaving unusually in a public place". If he'd worn the
Arsenal shirt and the fat suit he could have got away with it.

"Gadget" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have a work colleague who cycles full time, races and time trials, etc.

On

Quoted message said:

Wednesday he was pulled over by the police for tailgating (drafting) a postal transit van. They
were both doing about 50 mph and the speed limit was 40 mph. The police stopped and pulled over my
colleague for speeding

and

Quoted message said:

"reckless road use". They told him that is was illegal to draft vehicles. Now I don't know the law
but is it truly illegal? Dangerous, yes but

illegal

Quoted message said:

I'm not sure.

But - dangerous _is_ illegal. The RTA 1988 as amended in 1991 defines an offence of
dangerous cycling:

"A person who rides a cycle on a road dangerously is guilty of an offence.

(2) For the purposes of subsection (1) above a person is to be regarded as riding dangerously if
(and only if)-
(a) the way he rides falls far below what would be expected of a competent and careful
cyclist, and
(b) it would be obvious to a competent and careful cyclist that riding in that way would be
dangerous." The doesn't need to be a specific law against drafting for it to be illegal...

Rich

"Gadget" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have a work colleague who cycles full time, races and time trials, etc.

On

Quoted message said:

Wednesday he was pulled over by the police for tailgating (drafting) a postal transit van. They
were both doing about 50 mph and the speed limit was 40 mph.

I don't believe you. No Royal Mail van would go that slow in a 40mph zone.

Quoted message said:

The police stopped and pulled over my colleague for speeding and "reckless road use". They told
him that is was illegal to draft vehicles. Now I don't know the law but is it truly illegal?
Dangerous, yes but

illegal

Quoted message said:

I'm not sure.

Dangerous cycling is illegal (£2500 fine (according to my 1993 Highway Code)). It's not directly
illegal, though. Rule 209 of the highway code says not to do it, which I'd think is good enough to
argue dangerous cycling.

It *is* illegal to hold on to moving vehicles (or trailers)

As for reckless road use and speeding, neither of those ring a bell.

Did he get charged?

Quoted message said:

I've seen cars almost in each others boots doing excessive speeds.

Stupid, but at least their not at full exertion at the same time, I guess.

Ambrose

"Gadget" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have a work colleague who cycles full time, races and time trials, etc.

On

Quoted message said:

Wednesday he was pulled over by the police for tailgating (drafting) a postal transit van. They
were both doing about 50 mph and the speed limit was 40 mph. The police stopped and pulled over my
colleague for speeding

and

Quoted message said:

"reckless road use". They told him that is was illegal to draft vehicles. Now I don't know the law
but is it truly illegal? Dangerous, yes but

illegal

Quoted message said:

I'm not sure. I've seen cars almost in each others boots doing excessive speeds. I know of one
illegal activity that he has done and that was to draft lorries on motorways. One in front and one
behind him, convoy style. Now that's illegal but on A roads?

"Pedalling furiously" perhaps?

The Real Lee Casey

Richard Goodman said:

"Gadget" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have a work colleague who cycles full time, races and time trials, etc.

On

Quoted message said:

Wednesday he was pulled over by the police for tailgating (drafting) a postal transit van. They
were both doing about 50 mph and the speed limit was 40 mph. The police stopped and pulled over
my colleague for speeding

and

Quoted message said:

"reckless road use". They told him that is was illegal to draft vehicles. Now I don't know the
law but is it truly illegal? Dangerous, yes but

illegal

Quoted message said:

I'm not sure.

But - dangerous _is_ illegal. The RTA 1988 as amended in 1991 defines an offence of dangerous
cycling:

"A person who rides a cycle on a road dangerously is guilty of an offence.

(2) For the purposes of subsection (1) above a person is to be regarded as riding dangerously
if (and only if)-
(a) the way he rides falls far below what would be expected of a competent and careful cyclist,
and
(b) it would be obvious to a competent and careful cyclist that riding in that way would be
dangerous." The doesn't need to be a specific law against drafting for it to be illegal...

However, being able to do 50mph even behind a truck doesn't fall "far below what would be expected
of a competent and careful cyclist". You would need to be a "bloody good cyclist" to have any chance
of getting to those sorts of speeds in the first place except on very steep hills :-)

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.

tjw.hn.orgtjw.hn.orgOpen ↗ locofungus.btinternet.co.uklocofungus.btinternet.co.ukOpen ↗

"Tim Woodall" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

However, being able to do 50mph even behind a truck doesn't fall "far below what would be expected
of a competent and careful cyclist". You would need to be a "bloody good cyclist" to have any
chance of getting to those sorts of speeds in the first place except on very steep hills :-)

Heh - you'd be surprised. If the truck accelerates slowly and you keep close you can get to
silly speeds.

The one time I really got this right, after deciding that 49 was really too fast (this was on the
flat), the buffeting I got when I dropped back but was still going 45 was really quite interesting.

Don't try this at home, etc!

cheers, clive

"Tim Woodall" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

However, being able to do 50mph even behind a truck doesn't fall "far below what would be
expected of a competent and careful cyclist". You would need to be a "bloody good cyclist" to
have any chance of getting to those sorts of speeds in the first place except on very steep
hills :-)

Strong cyclist, yes, "good cyclist" err.. depends on how you define 'good'. If you define it as
cycling in a sensible manner with due consideration for other users, maybe not in the eyes of the
law. Anyway the issue is whether the action involved 'danger' - the relevant Act goes on to say:

" (3) In subsection (2) above "dangerous" refers to danger either of injury to any person or of
serious damage to property; and in determining for the purposes of that subsection what would be
obvious to a competent and careful cyclist in a particular case, regard shall be had not only to the
circumstances of which he could be expected to be aware but also to any circumstances shown to have
been within the knowledge of the accused."

If he were charged, it would be the mag who would have to decide whether his actions were dangerous
or not. I would not be surprised if they did view drafting at 50mph as "dangerous" activity,
believing that any 'right thinking' 'careful and competent cyclist' would agree... Would you care to
bet otherwise?

Rich

I would like to point out that when he drafts a vehicle he gets to about a foot of the van/lorry.
The reason why I call it dangerous would be if the driver suddenly had to brake. Surely it can't be
illegal if he's only endangering himself. My opinion any way. Mind you, you have to take into
account of what a carbon racing frame would do to said vehicle at 50 mph.

Gadget

"Gadget" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I would like to point out that when he drafts a vehicle he gets to about a foot of the van/lorry.
The reason why I call it dangerous would be if the driver suddenly had to brake. Surely it can't
be illegal if he's only endangering himself.

He *would* endanger others if he lost control and ended up in another traffic lane and caused
a pile up.

Andy Dingley said:

Gadget said:

I have a work colleague who cycles full time, races and time trials, etc. On Wednesday he was
pulled over by the police

Ah, that most suspicious of offences - "Behaving unusually in a public place". If he'd worn the
Arsenal shirt and the fat suit he could have got away with it.

and wearing a loud shirt in a built-up area

--
Pete

interchange 12 for 21 to reply

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would like to point out that when he drafts a vehicle he gets to about

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

foot of the van/lorry. The reason why I call it dangerous would be if

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

driver suddenly had to brake. Surely it can't be illegal if he's only endangering himself.

He *would* endanger others if he lost control and ended up in another traffic lane and caused a
pile up.

Fair point. I shall be passing all this over to him for his reading. And for those that asked no
they didn't charge him. Just took his name and address. Never asked for ID though. Good job too, he
doesn't carry a lot to cut down on the weight. He even hates to carry water bottles because of the
weight increase.

Gadget

Gadget said:

Never asked for ID though. Good job too, he doesn't carry a lot to cut down on the weight.

That would have been a strange thing for the police to ask for, since proof of ID is not (yet) a
legal requirement in the UK.

Gadget said:

he was pulled over by the police for tailgating (drafting) a postal transit van. They were both
doing about 50 mph and the speed limit was 40 mph. The police stopped and pulled over my colleague
for speeding and "reckless road use". They told him that is was illegal to draft vehicles.

What I want to know is, given that the Transit driver was committing an objectively measurable
offence with known adverse safety implications, why was the cyclist, who was not endangering anyone
other than himself, targeted?

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. chapmancentral.comchapmancentral.comOpen ↗ Advance
notice: ADSL service in process of transfer to a new ISP. Obviously there will be a week of downtime
between the engineer removing the BT service and the same engineer connecting the same equipment on
the same line in the same exchange and billing it to the new ISP.

"Gadget" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have a work colleague who cycles full time, races and time trials, etc.

On

Quoted message said:

Wednesday he was pulled over by the police for tailgating (drafting) a postal transit van.

And so he should have been. If he's not bullshitting, they should have pulled the transit over, too.

Tim

--
Sent from Birmingham, UK... Check out www.nervouscyclist.org 'I find sometimes it’s easy to be
myself, but sometimes I find it’s better to be somebody else.' - Dave Matthews 'So Much To Say' My
'reply to' address is valid, mail to the posting address is dumped

"Gadget" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I would like to point out that when he drafts a vehicle he gets to about a foot of the van/lorry.
The reason why I call it dangerous would be if the driver suddenly had to brake. Surely it can't
be illegal if he's only endangering himself. My opinion any way. Mind you, you have to take into
account of what a carbon racing frame would do to said vehicle at 50 mph.

Gadget

I would seriously hate to try and stop from 50mph in any kind of emergency situation on my roadbike.
Mind you it does have chrome rims and leather lined brakepads, requires a little forethought ;-)
cheers, Dave.

In "]news:[email hidden], Gadget
<[email hidden]> typed:

Quoted message said:

I would like to point out that when he drafts a vehicle he gets to about a foot of the van/lorry.
The reason why I call it dangerous would be if the driver suddenly had to brake. Surely it can't
be illegal if he's only endangering himself. My opinion any way. Mind you, you have to take into
account of what a carbon racing frame would do to said vehicle at 50 mph.

At 50mph that foot gap takes 13ms to cross. It takes typically 70-150 times that to react to the van
slowing.. Conclusion, the van does not need to brake suddenly, even gentle slowing would be enough
to cause a collision. I would call that dangerous not only to himself but also the other road users
that might have to take evasive action when he goes down.

Tony

--
raven-family.comraven-family.comOpen ↗

"All truth goes through three steps: First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed.
Finally, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer

Simonb said:

Gadget said:

Never asked for ID though. Good job too, he doesn't carry a lot to cut down on the weight.

That would have been a strange thing for the police to ask for, since proof of ID is not (yet) a
legal requirement in the UK.

No (thankfully), but if you don't have any ID, the police can, I believe, arrest you 'on suspicion',
so generally if you're asked and produce some ID, it reduced your chances of having your day ruined
by accompanying them down to the station.

Pete

Tony Raven said:

At 50mph that foot gap takes 13ms to cross. It takes typically 70-150 times that to react to the
van slowing.

First of all, the gap high-speed opportunist drafters leave is usually greater than one foot
(despite what boasts people may make or what it looks like from a distance). Two, three or four feet
(or even a few yards) is more like it.

I dispute those reaction times, anyway. It takes a fraction of one second to react if concentrating
hard. It's like formation flying or motor racing. Being very close to the vehicle means you can read
what it's doing much quicker and more precisely than you can when further away, and so virtually act
as one with it, increasing the gap by inches as and when it closes by inches.

Longer reaction times are quoted for car drivers because the typical gap is greater: it takes longer
to realise that it has changed; plus concentration is nothing like so high or focused. Of course I'm
not advocating that people drive closer - because although reaction times would be reduced, margin
for error would also be reduced. (I think they should drive slower, concentrate harder and leave
bigger gaps).

Quoted message said:

Conclusion, the van does not need to brake suddenly, even gentle slowing would be enough to cause
a collision.

Anyone who has tried it knows that it is easily possible to cope with gentle slowing.

I don't dispute that it's dangerous. The main dangers (assuming a relatively suitable vehicle and
road is chosen) are the lack of margin for extra hesitation (scratch nose at the wrong time and
you've had it), failing to employ good braking technique, and loosing control or breaking something
after hitting a pothole.

It is possible to out-brake an average articulated lorry on a good road bike (even if the lorry
brakes as hard as possible), but may be impossible for lighter vehicles. Drafting big lorries
occasionally is moderately mad, IMO. Drafting vans at high speed is suicidal - unless the driver is
co-operating, in which case it's only barking mad.

~PB