Is 150 miles enough?

"Brian G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So the question is, is that it? Is 150 miles enough of a road test for me
to say with confidence that the wheel will do, or is there something else
I need to look out for, beyond the normal checks and maintenance?

TBH, it's a front wheel, so won't be under any great stress anyway. The only
thing to consider is when you say you compared the tension to other front
wheels, were they high quality ones or not?

(FWIW I'd give even a rear wheel I'd built only a cursory road test :-) )

cheers,
clive

Brian G said:

So the question is, is that it? Is 150 miles enough of a road test
for me to say with confidence that the wheel will do, or is there
something else I need to look out for, beyond the normal checks and
maintenance?

No, I'd say that's it.
Congratulations, you are now a competent wheel-builder.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

Brian G said:

Spurred on by discussion on urc and elsewhere, I've built a 700c front
wheel, from parts via Ebay (except for the spokes). I mostly followed
Sheldon Brown's excellent instructions and got on quite well with it.
It's a standard 32 spoke, 3-cross setup. I've set the tension mainly by
instinct and by comparison with other front wheels. I stress-relieved
it using all the methods I found reference to. I've put it one of my
bikes and run it for just over 150 miles, mainly on smooth road but with
some bumpy bits thrown in to test it a bit. It runs pretty well true in
both dimensions, although I had to do some fine side to side tuning
after about 50 miles.

So the question is, is that it? Is 150 miles enough of a road test for
me to say with confidence that the wheel will do, or is there something
else I need to look out for, beyond the normal checks and maintenance?

Can I ask, how long did it take from first thinking about it to
project completion, did you have spend a lot on tools/jigs - were
there any costly mistakes? Only ask because I need a spare wheelset
for ice and snow and was contemplating whether or not to have a go at
making them up myself.

Many thanks,

Duncan

"Duncan Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Can I ask, how long did it take from first thinking about it to
project completion, did you have spend a lot on tools/jigs - were
there any costly mistakes? Only ask because I need a spare wheelset
for ice and snow and was contemplating whether or not to have a go at
making them up myself.

I've built a few wheels now - one rear, quite a few front. So far for tools
I've spent, erm, about a fiver on a spokey (the red plastic disc one).
That's it - hence no scope for costly mistakes :-)

(putting a new hub in a wheel in a tent while on holiday was the most
time-constrained one)

cheers,
clive

Duncan Smith said:

Can I ask, how long did it take from first thinking about it to
project completion, did you have spend a lot on tools/jigs - were
there any costly mistakes? Only ask because I need a spare wheelset
for ice and snow and was contemplating whether or not to have a go at
making them up myself.

The actual building of the front wheel took a matter of hours only. The
longest part of the process was getting the parts from Ebay auctions.
The scariest bit was calculating the spoke length (which I eventually
got bang on, I'm glad to say). I found the various articles on Sheldon
Brown's website to be of immense value. The only tool I had to get was
a small blob of Blu-Tak to fit on the end of an old spoke to hold some
of the spoke nipples in place while mating them with the spokes before
tightening with the screwdriver. BTW, Sheldon's advice to use an
electric screwdriver was a huge timesaver. I didn't use any jigs - I
just used a bike to true up the wheel which fortunately was pretty much
true immediately after building. The best tip I read was to screw the
nipples down initially to the same spot on each spoke (n threads
showing, or whatever).

Bear in mind this was only a front wheel.

--
Brian G
www.wetwo.co.uk

"Brian G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The scariest bit was calculating the spoke length (which I eventually got
bang on, I'm glad to say).

spocalc.xls from Sheldon's site has never failed me.

cheers,
clive

Clive George said:

"Brian G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The scariest bit was calculating the spoke length (which I eventually
got bang on, I'm glad to say).

spocalc.xls from Sheldon's site has never failed me.

Indeed. I also used the one on the DT Swiss website and found it excellent.

--
Brian G
www.wetwo.co.uk

Clive George said:

"Brian G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The scariest bit was calculating the spoke length (which I eventually
got bang on, I'm glad to say).

spocalc.xls from Sheldon's site has never failed me.

I have a somewhat 'improved' version of that with drop down menus for
the hubs/rims, makes entering data easier.

E-mail me iyi.

Brian G said:

Duncan Smith said:

Can I ask, how long did it take from first thinking about it to
project completion, did you have spend a lot on tools/jigs - were
there any costly mistakes? Only ask because I need a spare wheelset
for ice and snow and was contemplating whether or not to have a go at
making them up myself.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

The best tip I read was to screw the
nipples down initially to the same spot on each spoke (n threads
showing, or whatever).

Yep. A few minutes up front seems to work wonders. I might make up one
of those '-v-' type bits so this can be done with said electric screwdriver.

Brian G <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Spurred on by discussion on urc and elsewhere, I've built a 700c front
wheel, from parts via Ebay (except for the spokes). I mostly followed
Sheldon Brown's excellent instructions and got on quite well with it.
It's a standard 32 spoke, 3-cross setup. I've set the tension mainly
by instinct and by comparison with other front wheels. I
stress-relieved it using all the methods I found reference to. I've
put it one of my bikes and run it for just over 150 miles, mainly on
smooth road but with some bumpy bits thrown in to test it a bit. It
runs pretty well true in both dimensions, although I had to do some
fine side to side tuning after about 50 miles.

So the question is, is that it? Is 150 miles enough of a road test
for me to say with confidence that the wheel will do, or is there
something else I need to look out for, beyond the normal checks and
maintenance?

If you compared the spoke tone with existing wheels you probably don't
have enough tension on them which is why you needed to fine tune after
50 miles. The tension should be set by either getting to the point
where the nipples are becoming too hard to turn without risking damaging
them or the wheel goes pringle shaped when stress relieved. If its the
former you're done, if the latter, back off half a turn all round,
retrue, stress relieve, check the true and you're done.

--
Tony

" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell

Tony Raven said:

Brian G <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Spurred on by discussion on urc and elsewhere, I've built a 700c front
wheel, from parts via Ebay (except for the spokes). I mostly followed
Sheldon Brown's excellent instructions and got on quite well with it.
It's a standard 32 spoke, 3-cross setup. I've set the tension mainly
by instinct and by comparison with other front wheels. I
stress-relieved it using all the methods I found reference to. I've
put it one of my bikes and run it for just over 150 miles, mainly on
smooth road but with some bumpy bits thrown in to test it a bit. It
runs pretty well true in both dimensions, although I had to do some
fine side to side tuning after about 50 miles.

So the question is, is that it? Is 150 miles enough of a road test
for me to say with confidence that the wheel will do, or is there
something else I need to look out for, beyond the normal checks and
maintenance?

If you compared the spoke tone with existing wheels you probably don't
have enough tension on them which is why you needed to fine tune after
50 miles. The tension should be set by either getting to the point
where the nipples are becoming too hard to turn without risking damaging
them or the wheel goes pringle shaped when stress relieved.

That may well be too much tension for a modern aluminium rim and result
in premature cracking around the spoke holes.

This has been flamed to death on RBT but even Jobst effectively agrees
with the conclusion as far as I can tell. He phrases it as "don't use
[censored] rims then" (he has stockpiled MA-2s himself from back in the day)
rather than as "don't use so much tension" but the facts themselves seem
to be in less dispute.

The idea of going to the pringle point and back a bit comes from Jobst's
book. As far as I know that is the origin of the meme, but I couldn't
say for sure.

I agree fine-tuning after 50 miles shouldn't be necessary. But I'm not
sure the taco/pringle/potato chip and back a bit principle is still such
a good idea unless you follow all of Jobst's advice and also use MA-2s.

Now a few people may say well I use lots of tension and my rims never
crack, and I don't disbelieve them, but things fail when the sum total
of contributory factors exceeds some limit, so it isn't easy to draw
conclusions from anecdotal evidence like that.

As for the question of how many miles before you declare a wheel well
and truly built, based on this,
http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/opinions/frame-test.html, which is
actually about frames, I suppose that if you've gone for 280 hours (or
about 6000 miles) with no spokes breaking then you can assume they are
operating below their fatigue limit and therefore will last forever.

Ben C <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Now a few people may say well I use lots of tension and my rims never
crack, and I don't disbelieve them, but things fail when the sum total
of contributory factors exceeds some limit, so it isn't easy to draw
conclusions from anecdotal evidence like that.

I've built a wide range of wheels on a wide range of rims from road bikes
to tandems and never had a problem with rims cracking. YMMV

--
Tony

" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell

Tony Raven said:

Ben C <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Now a few people may say well I use lots of tension and my rims never
crack, and I don't disbelieve them, but things fail when the sum total
of contributory factors exceeds some limit, so it isn't easy to draw
conclusions from anecdotal evidence like that.

I've built a wide range of wheels on a wide range of rims from road bikes
to tandems and never had a problem with rims cracking. YMMV

I got a cracked rim on the back wheel the bike came with. The spokes
kept coming loose, so I tensioned them up quite a bit more than they had
been originally, thinking well you can't have too much tension. Not so
the wheel was taco-ing, but quite tight. Not long later cracks in the
rim on the drive-side where the spokes were tightest. So MM did V. Why
the cracks? A whole bunch of possible factors, but plausible that high
spoke tension was one of them.

Brian G said:

BTW, Sheldon's advice to use an electric screwdriver was a huge
timesaver.

Googling "Bicycle Research nipple driver" yields a tool that I've used
in the past and/or funny looks from your IT staff. Quite nice; the
wiggly bit rotates within the handle.

That said, you can use an electric screwdriver for other jobs.

--
Andrew Chadwick