Irration, outsize doping penalty

Sandy said:

I am just having a hard time believing that this is the sort of rules
violation that should be considered "doping" or "cheating". First, I don't
think it's really anything more than absent-mindedness. Second, even if one
must be a stickler for paperwork details, it seems an untoward distortion of
applying the rules, when a six month suspension of the right to earn a
living is the result. This anti-drug thing now penalizes an athlete more,
in practical terms, than the minor sales of narcotics on the street. I give
up on the logic that anyone could present in defense of such a sanction.
No, I don't think I'm being naïve about this.

Its just as irrational as suspensions for testing positive for marijuana
incurred by some downhill MTBers.

Apart from which the complete stupidity of attempting to implement a
uniform drug code where a cyclist could be sanctioned for taking for
example a beta blocker that would have had a performance degrading effect
in any endurance sport highlights the function of WADA as a bunch of self
righteous old farts on a hypocritical crusade (rather like the 70's and
80's bunch of old farts attempting to enforce the shamateurism rules of
the time). And even those drugs that might be considered performance
enhancing are often not really very effective (such as these asthma pump
cortizone deritives) and not particularly dangerous either. Concentrating
on those few drugs that actually enhance performance and might be
dangerous to the user would seem a more rational approach.

Does cycling really need WADA and the olympics anyway ? Who cares about a
race that Mercxx never participated in.

MagillaGorilla said:

Sandy said:

I am just having a hard time believing that this is the sort of

rules

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

violation that should be considered "doping" or "cheating". First,

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

don't think it's really anything more than absent-mindedness.

Second,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

even if one must be a stickler for paperwork details, it seems an
untoward distortion of applying the rules, when a six month

suspension

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the right to earn a living is the result. This anti-drug thing

now

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

penalizes an athlete more, in practical terms, than the minor sales

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

narcotics on the street. I give up on the logic that anyone could
present in defense of such a sanction. No, I don't think I'm being

naïve

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about this.

Green suspended for asthma inhaler slip-up
Canadian mountain bike racer Roland Green has been retroactively
suspended for six months after testing positive for prednisolone, a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

synthetic corticosteroid, at the UCI MTB World Cup in Houffalize in

May

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2004.

A hearing was recently conducted through the Sport Dispute

Resolution

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Centre of Canada with the participation of Green and the Canadian
Cycling Association (CCA). The hearing found that an infraction of

UCI

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

anti-doping rules had occurred, but there were mitigating

circumstances:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the prednisolone came from Green's asthma inhaler and Green had

failed

Quoted message said:

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to keep up the necessary paperwork to use it.

... follow...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2005/mar05/mar02news

Because under a strict liability system, 6 months is considered a
minimum sanction. Green got what he deserved.

Green took a steroid intentionally.

Yes he did.
He's probably using the asthma

Quoted message said:

inhaler as a calculated excuse to get his monthly dose of steroid.

Totally unproven and unsubstantiated allegation.
Or are you one of those people who actually thinks the entire peloton
of

Quoted message said:

pro cyclists has breathing problems and deserves all these medical
exemptions?

That's why there needs to be an independent review of the medical
records, or even an examination before approval for these things.

Quoted message said:

I don't know a single asthmatic as an adult. However, I do know a

lot

Quoted message said:

of pro cyclists who claim to have breathing problems.

You must lead a sheltered life, and given your sweet disposition I'm
nopt surprised that you have a limited circle of acquaintances.

Quoted message said:

It's all a ruse. Green should have gotten 1 year. Your buddy

Lafferty

Quoted message said:

is going to be disappointed in you.

Magilla

Hopefully you work in some sector where the govt. can screw you over
and shut down what your doing, or yank your license for stupid [censored]
like a minor paperwork glitch.
But then we'll never know will we.
Bill C

Bill C said:

MagillaGorilla said:

Sandy said:

I am just having a hard time believing that this is the sort of

rules

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

violation that should be considered "doping" or "cheating". First,

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

don't think it's really anything more than absent-mindedness.

Second,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

even if one must be a stickler for paperwork details, it seems an
untoward distortion of applying the rules, when a six month

suspension

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the right to earn a living is the result. This anti-drug thing

now

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

penalizes an athlete more, in practical terms, than the minor sales

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

narcotics on the street. I give up on the logic that anyone could
present in defense of such a sanction. No, I don't think I'm being

naïve

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about this.

Green suspended for asthma inhaler slip-up
Canadian mountain bike racer Roland Green has been retroactively
suspended for six months after testing positive for prednisolone, a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

synthetic corticosteroid, at the UCI MTB World Cup in Houffalize in

May

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2004.

A hearing was recently conducted through the Sport Dispute

Resolution

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Centre of Canada with the participation of Green and the Canadian
Cycling Association (CCA). The hearing found that an infraction of

UCI

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

anti-doping rules had occurred, but there were mitigating

circumstances:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the prednisolone came from Green's asthma inhaler and Green had

failed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to keep up the necessary paperwork to use it.

... follow...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2005/mar05/mar02news

Because under a strict liability system, 6 months is considered a
minimum sanction. Green got what he deserved.

Green took a steroid intentionally.

Yes he did.
He's probably using the asthma

Quoted message said:

inhaler as a calculated excuse to get his monthly dose of steroid.

Totally unproven and unsubstantiated allegation.
Or are you one of those people who actually thinks the entire peloton
of

Quoted message said:

pro cyclists has breathing problems and deserves all these medical
exemptions?

That's why there needs to be an independent review of the medical
records, or even an examination before approval for these things.

Quoted message said:

I don't know a single asthmatic as an adult. However, I do know a

lot

Quoted message said:

of pro cyclists who claim to have breathing problems.

You must lead a sheltered life, and given your sweet disposition I'm
nopt surprised that you have a limited circle of acquaintances.

Quoted message said:

It's all a ruse. Green should have gotten 1 year. Your buddy

Lafferty

Quoted message said:

is going to be disappointed in you.

Magilla

Hopefully you work in some sector where the govt. can screw you over
and shut down what your doing, or yank your license for stupid [censored]
like a minor paperwork glitch.
But then we'll never know will we.
Bill C

Taking a steroid is not the same as a "paperwork" violation. Roland
Green isn't an asthmatic, trust me.

Does anybody remember which athlete it was who said that these breathing
inhalers and getting a medical exemption for asthma was all a big joke
designed to cover up intentional doping?

Sorry, but if you're a pro cyclist, you breathe just fine. If you're an
asthamtic, you shouldn't be racing a bike for 6 hours a day.

Bill, don't get suckered into the doper scams of pro cycling.

I'm surprised pro cyclists aren't claiming they have chronic renal
failure just so they can get a medical exemption for EPO.

Thanks,

Magilla

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sandy wrote:
I am just having a hard time believing that this is the sort of

rules violation that should be considered "doping" or "cheating".
First, I don't think it's really anything more than
absent-mindedness.

Uh, no it's a legal doping scam but you've gotta play by the rules -
and he didn't. Jump through the proper hoops and dope legally or get
suspended. Simple as that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

MagillaGorilla wrote:

Does anybody remember which athlete it was who said that these

breathing

Quoted message said:

inhalers and getting a medical exemption for asthma was all a big

joke

Quoted message said:

designed to cover up intentional doping?

Manzano - and he was right.

Quoted message said:

Sorry, but if you're a pro cyclist, you breathe just fine. If you're

an

Quoted message said:

asthamtic, you shouldn't be racing a bike for 6 hours a day.

That's the truth brother. And for all you that think inhalers are no
big deal, there's a little truth there. The amounts of
corticosterioids are minimal if used as prescribed - but what the
inhaler allows you to do is get an exemption for testing positive for
corticoids. During stage races these drugs work wonders for recovery
from day to day. With the medical clearance for an inhaler you can pop
a bunch of prednisone or prednisolone and be ready to roll for the next
stage. Plus these drugs give a boost to the adrenal system and give a
bit of a euphoric rush. Definitely an unfair advantage and definitely
doping by anyone's standard.

Gorilla Critter said:

That's the truth brother. And for all you that think inhalers are no
big deal, there's a little truth there. The amounts of
corticosterioids are minimal if used as prescribed - but what the
inhaler allows you to do is get an exemption for testing positive for
corticoids. During stage races these drugs work wonders for recovery
from day to day. With the medical clearance for an inhaler you can pop
a bunch of prednisone or prednisolone and be ready to roll for the next
stage. Plus these drugs give a boost to the adrenal system and give a
bit of a euphoric rush. Definitely an unfair advantage and definitely
doping by anyone's standard.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/mar04/mar16news
------
Gaumont also revealed the importance of having a doctor willing to write
justifications for certain products, notably corticoids. As Gaumont
explains it, there are no masking products, rather masking prescriptions.

"Here's how it works," he said. "The team doctor sends you to see an
allergy specialist. The specialist says you are allergic to dust mites
and prescribes a spray... When you go to a doping control, you declare
your allergy and that you have a prescription for Nasacort (a product
Gaumont says masks cortisone), which you used in the morning in a nasal
inhaler. At the same time, you've taken in injection of Kenacort (a
banned substance), since at the control they can't tell the difference
between a spray and an injection."
------

Bob Schwartz
[email hidden]

Gorilla Critter said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Sandy wrote:
>I am just having a hard time believing that this is the sort of

rules violation that should be considered "doping" or "cheating".
First, I don't think it's really anything more than
absent-mindedness.

Uh, no it's a legal doping scam but you've gotta play by the rules -
and he didn't. Jump through the proper hoops and dope legally or get
suspended. Simple as that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

MagillaGorilla wrote:

Does anybody remember which athlete it was who said that these

breathing

Quoted message said:

inhalers and getting a medical exemption for asthma was all a big

joke

Quoted message said:

designed to cover up intentional doping?

Manzano - and he was right.

Quoted message said:

Sorry, but if you're a pro cyclist, you breathe just fine. If you're

an

Quoted message said:

asthamtic, you shouldn't be racing a bike for 6 hours a day.

That's the truth brother. And for all you that think inhalers are no
big deal, there's a little truth there. The amounts of
corticosterioids are minimal if used as prescribed - but what the
inhaler allows you to do is get an exemption for testing positive for
corticoids. During stage races these drugs work wonders for recovery
from day to day. With the medical clearance for an inhaler you can pop
a bunch of prednisone or prednisolone and be ready to roll for the next
stage. Plus these drugs give a boost to the adrenal system and give a
bit of a euphoric rush. Definitely an unfair advantage and definitely
doping by anyone's standard.

Nice job, cousin monkey. Now we're getting into some serious discussion
here. Finally, someone on RBR who isn't a clueless jackass.

Roland Green's little medical exemption certificate is nothing but a
carefully orchestrated scheme by himself to exploit the loophole in the
doping regulations and to use as a cover story to circumvent testing
positive for taking steroids which he does intentionally to enhance his
performance.

The Euros have been getting away with it for years. Green finally got on
the program.

How much do you want to bet Roland Green never had any problems
breathing until he was racing his bike for money?

Roland Green's excuse is like a weight lifter saying he has muscle
weakness every time he goes to lift a world record weight, so he needs
to take steroids to counter this "medical condition."

Magilla

Bob Schwartz said:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/mar04/mar16news
Gaumont also revealed the importance of having a doctor willing to write
justifications for certain products, notably corticoids. As Gaumont
explains it, there are no masking products, rather masking
prescriptions.

"Here's how it works," he said. "The team doctor sends you to see an
allergy specialist. The specialist says you are allergic to dust mites
and prescribes a spray... When you go to a doping control, you declare
your allergy and that you have a prescription for Nasacort (a product
Gaumont says masks cortisone), which you used in the morning in a nasal
inhaler. At the same time, you've taken in injection of Kenacort (a
banned substance), since at the control they can't tell the difference
between a spray and an injection."

Gaumont also said,
"Et pour le taux de cortisone, par exemple, s'il est effondré - ce qui
dénote la prise de cortisone -, il suffit de prendre un cachet
d'hydrocortisone avant le contrôle et de boire trois litres d'eau, et
l'affaire est réglée."

Again you prove that you are a moron. Cortical steriods and Anabolic
steriod are completely different subbstances and could never be used to
mask one another.

God your idiocy abounds.

Again you are just a moron, and your statements prove you have no
comprehension of asthma, the world or how to get your head out of your
[censored].

The drug tests can tell the differnce between different synthetic
varieties along with the level in the blood.

Also If you poped a bunch of predisone you would have drastic muscle
deterioration, fitful nights sleep, tremors, exessive dehtdration,
adrenal fatigue, adrenal based diabetic swings and a whole host of
other problems....definitely would really boost performance! You
obviously have never taken pred and have no medical knowledge of its
side effects.

You'd re-think that position if you could see the percentage of
top-level cyclists that claim to have these serious medical conditions.
If the number were more in-line with what the general population
experiences, then I'd be more inclined to agree with you. If you've
read-up, you'll notice that virtually every pro rider now has a
doctor's note about at least one medical condition that requires
prescription medication.

" First, I don't think it's really anything more than
absent-mindedness."

MagillaGorilla said:

Bob Schwartz said:

Gorilla Critter said:

That's the truth brother. And for all you that think inhalers are no
big deal, there's a little truth there. The amounts of
corticosterioids are minimal if used as prescribed - but what the
inhaler allows you to do is get an exemption for testing positive for
corticoids. During stage races these drugs work wonders for recovery
from day to day. With the medical clearance for an inhaler you can
pop a bunch of prednisone or prednisolone and be ready to roll for
the next stage. Plus these drugs give a boost to the adrenal system
and give a bit of a euphoric rush. Definitely an unfair advantage
and definitely doping by anyone's standard.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/mar04/mar16news
Gaumont also revealed the importance of having a doctor willing to
write justifications for certain products, notably corticoids. As
Gaumont explains it, there are no masking products, rather masking
prescriptions.

"Here's how it works," he said. "The team doctor sends you to see an
allergy specialist. The specialist says you are allergic to dust mites
and prescribes a spray... When you go to a doping control, you declare
your allergy and that you have a prescription for Nasacort (a product
Gaumont says masks cortisone), which you used in the morning in a nasal
inhaler. At the same time, you've taken in injection of Kenacort (a
banned substance), since at the control they can't tell the difference
between a spray and an injection."

Gorilla Critter and Bob are right on the money.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/f3c5428400e9f91d

Over the past 3 years, I've had two instances where I was racing (both
during the month of June) and experienced breathing problems. One time
it was severe enough that my bronchial tubes swelled shut and I was
absolutely sure I would die on the spot. I had it checked out and
discovered I have what is considered a mild case of asthma. It is only
triggered during very specific circumstances (certain northeast tree
pollens combined with ultra humid and hot weather, usually in
June/July). I do not race or train ultra hard during late June/early
July now. I'd rather not die.

I was told that less than 5% of the population at large has this
condition, and that I can keep an inhaler with me for such occurances.
I was also told that if I had such a condition where I required daily
use of the inhaler, that I'd probably not be bike racing at all. I'd
probably be dead.

bobo said:

The drug tests can tell the differnce between different synthetic
varieties along with the level in the blood.

I honestly don't know the specifics here as to whether WADA actually
tests to differentiate between corticoids. I do know that levels can
be tested. That's how Igor Gonzales de Galdeano got popped a few years
back (2002?). I think he was taking Salbutamol (without a prescription
I believe) but tested way above the "therapeutic limit". Still, even
if WADA does get specific with the testing all you have to do is abuse
the corticoid you're "authorized" to take.

Quoted message said:

Also If you poped a bunch of predisone you would have drastic muscle
deterioration, fitful nights sleep, tremors, exessive dehtdration,
adrenal fatigue, adrenal based diabetic swings and a whole host of
other problems....definitely would really boost performance! You
obviously have never taken pred and have no medical knowledge of its
side effects.

You're correct. Those are the long term effects of the drugs. You're
wrong in that these drugs generally aren't used for long periods of
time in the doping world. We're talking about very short periods of
time here. Certainly not enough to experience the PDR-symptoms you
listed. You obviously have never abused corticoids for doping.

Magilla,

A friend of a friend (adult) died of asthma recently. She didn't know
she had it and then had a severe attack. An ex-teammate of mine had a
lifethreatening ashthma attack about six years ago. She also didn't
know she had it, but luckily the attack happened at a bike race where
there were paramedics present, so she lived. She carries an inhaler
now.

Asthma is no joke. It might be true that pro cyclists and others are
abusing asthma medecine, but asthma is a serious condition.

JF

Again, as someone who has been on predisone on multiple occasion and as
a bike racer, I can resolutely tell you the pred is most definitely NOT
performance enhancing! With in hours of taking it, it starts breaking
down muscle into sugar, and causing isulin resistence. Your recovery
goes past nil, you can't sleep but you are tired all the time. It
really does suck and is not condusive to racing at all.
This is all with in 24 hours of first administration.

I am also a bike racer who can push 330 watts at LT on good asthma days
and 230 on bad...

As a long term suffer I have also given advice to 3 (2 olympians) elite
athletes who were dignosesed with asthma (through spirometer
readings). All three had had devistating years that had caused them to
contimplate quiting their respective sports and cortical steriods have
given them new life. So, while some might abuse, some truely elites
have this devistating aliment and are truely in need.

If MagillaGorilla truely knew anything about asthma and was just
spouting off as a troll then he would realize that their is a huge golf
between asthma and being tired and breathless at the end of a race.
Don;t hitch yourself to his igrnorant cart. I will be happy to have an
informed debate over cortical steriods etc. but his is not informed nor
is it debate it is just jackassry.

If

Gorilla Critter said:

bobo said:

The drug tests can tell the differnce between different synthetic
varieties along with the level in the blood.

I honestly don't know the specifics here as to whether WADA actually
tests to differentiate between corticoids. I do know that levels can
be tested. That's how Igor Gonzales de Galdeano got popped a few years
back (2002?). I think he was taking Salbutamol (without a prescription
I believe) but tested way above the "therapeutic limit". Still, even
if WADA does get specific with the testing all you have to do is abuse
the corticoid you're "authorized" to take.

No. He had a prescription for salbutamol, but the real issue was a turf
war between the UCI and the WADA. Both require that you have a
prescription, but in addition the WADA has a limit of 1000 ng/ml while the
UCI didn't have a limitation on the amount. IGG tested in excess of 1000
ng/ml, so he fell afoul of the WADA regs even though he was authorized to
take it.

Quoted message said:

You'd re-think that position if you could see the percentage of
top-level cyclists that claim to have these serious medical conditions.
If the number were more in-line with what the general population
experiences, then I'd be more inclined to agree with you. If you've
read-up, you'll notice that virtually every pro rider now has a
doctor's note about at least one medical condition that requires
prescription medication.

I wouldn't expect stuff like this to mirror the general population.
I would expect any favorable trait to appear more frequently among
top athletes, and any negative trait to appear much less frequently.

For example, I would expect top cyclists to have higher hematocrits
than the population at large, even in the absence of doping. Because
having a naturally high hematocrit makes it easier to be a top
level cyclist.

I would expect top level athletes to have above average lung function.
I would not expect a random distribution, I would expect people
closer to the tail of the bell curve of the population as a whole.

So yeah, the frequency of exercise induced asthma seems odd to me
also.

Bob Schwartz
[email hidden]

I think you logic is faulty for the following reasons

A) Most people will not notice 10% decrease in lung function while an
athlete will. Therefore athletes report at much higher rates.

B) Asthma is not an absolute level of lung function but delta from
"clear" function to "asthmatic" function. a professional cyclist might
blow 140% of normal when clear and 120% of normal when having symptoms
that still makes them asthmatic and still makes the effects devistating

C) There is some precusrory research that suggest that endurance
training in and of itself may in fact increase asthmatic symptoms.

D) High rates of asthma in non-elite, but highly competitive ameture
endurance athletes have also been documented.

While I think the 60% number is inflated by people attempting to get an
edge, simliar rates are also seen in runners and x-country skiers and
even higher rates in swimmers. I think science is currently at loss to
explain it but their is a clear connection between endurance athletics
and asthma.

Some good reading on the subject can be found from:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=asthma+athletes&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Search