Iraq and Italy Post-War Parallel?

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:56:02 GMT, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Interesting article. It reminds me of what has been written about Coppi and
Bartali feeding and uniting the post-war spirit of the Italian people. Sport
can be a wonderful, positive force.
Caveat-- This is not to say that Iraq is truly post-war.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3579084.stm

Problem is it is not Iraqis that are causing much of the trouble in
Iraq.

Quoted message said:

From: "B. Lafferty" [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Interesting article. It reminds me of what has been written about Coppi and
Bartali feeding and uniting the post-war spirit of the Italian people. Sport
can be a wonderful, positive force.
Caveat-- This is not to say that Iraq is truly post-war.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3579084.stm

We aren't dealing with the Iraqi remnanats the way we dealt with the Nazis.
And we sure as hell aren't doing it the way the Soviets did. So it's going to
be very messy for a while.
Bill C

"TritonRider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From: "B. Lafferty" [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Interesting article. It reminds me of what has been written about Coppi

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bartali feeding and uniting the post-war spirit of the Italian people.

Sport

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

can be a wonderful, positive force.
Caveat-- This is not to say that Iraq is truly post-war.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3579084.stm

We aren't dealing with the Iraqi remnanats the way we dealt with the

Nazis.

Quoted message said:

And we sure as hell aren't doing it the way the Soviets did. So it's going

to

Quoted message said:

be very messy for a while.
Bill C

It's going to be messy while we're there and messy after we leave just as it
has been messy for centuries.

Quoted message said:

From: "B. Lafferty" [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

It's going to be messy while we're there and messy after we leave just as it
has been messy for centuries.

Agreed.
Bill C

TritonRider said:

Quoted message said:

From: "B. Lafferty" [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Interesting article. It reminds me of what has been written about Coppi and
Bartali feeding and uniting the post-war spirit of the Italian people. Sport
can be a wonderful, positive force.
Caveat-- This is not to say that Iraq is truly post-war.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3579084.stm

We aren't dealing with the Iraqi remnanats the way we dealt with the Nazis.
And we sure as hell aren't doing it the way the Soviets did. So it's going to
be very messy for a while.

The comparison is not reasonable, or at least one should be quite cautious in
doing so. Germany was smashed to bits after 5-6 years of savage TOTAL WAR. In
Germany there was unconditional surrender by a horribly battered country. There
was no one left to fight, or anyone who wanted to after that hell-on-earth.

No such thing happened with Hussein's removal. The conflict was short,
relatively narrow in confinement, and the infrastructure damage was not remotely
comparable. Nor was the loss of life, or anything else for that matter. This
war by its very short nature, and minimum loss of life (as wars go) would
perhaps necessarily leave some stronger willed opposition to be dealt with
post-war.

"gwhite" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

TritonRider said:

Quoted message said:

From: "B. Lafferty" [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Interesting article. It reminds me of what has been written about Coppi
and
Bartali feeding and uniting the post-war spirit of the Italian people.
Sport
can be a wonderful, positive force.
Caveat-- This is not to say that Iraq is truly post-war.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3579084.stm

We aren't dealing with the Iraqi remnanats the way we dealt with the
Nazis.
And we sure as hell aren't doing it the way the Soviets did. So it's
going to
be very messy for a while.

The comparison is not reasonable, or at least one should be quite cautious
in
doing so. Germany was smashed to bits after 5-6 years of savage TOTAL
WAR. In
Germany there was unconditional surrender by a horribly battered country.
There
was no one left to fight, or anyone who wanted to after that
hell-on-earth.

No such thing happened with Hussein's removal. The conflict was short,
relatively narrow in confinement, and the infrastructure damage was not
remotely
comparable. Nor was the loss of life, or anything else for that matter.
This
war by its very short nature, and minimum loss of life (as wars go) would
perhaps necessarily leave some stronger willed opposition to be dealt with
post-war.

The comparison was for the purpose of showing how sport can be uplifting to
a suffering country and it's people. Italian people lifted by Coppi and
Bartali. Iraqi people lifted by their soccer team at the Olympics.

Quoted message said:

From: gwhite [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

The comparison is not reasonable, or at least one should be quite cautious in
doing so. Germany was smashed to bits after 5-6 years of savage TOTAL WAR.
In
Germany there was unconditional surrender by a horribly battered country.
There
was no one left to fight, or anyone who wanted to after that hell-on-earth.

No such thing happened with Hussein's removal. The conflict was short,
relatively narrow in confinement, and the infrastructure damage was not
remotely
comparable. Nor was the loss of life, or anything else for that matter.
This
war by its very short nature, and minimum loss of life (as wars go) would
perhaps necessarily leave some stronger willed opposition to be dealt with
post-war.

That was exactly the reasoning leading to my point. My point was that the US
locked up everybody they could get their hands on, very quickly tried and
executed a bunch. Summarily executed anyone who was involved in armed
resistance. The Soviets slaughtered whole surrendering SS units on more than
one occasion and almost immediately went into purge mode.
We are doing none of this in Iraq as policy. We are bing forced to allow the
opposition to use civilian and religious areas as sanctuary. The world press is
pounding on civilian casualties and atrocities caused by the US while ignoring,
or massively downplaying the immensely greater slaughter, kidnappings and
mayhem being perpetrated upon the Iraqi people by the opposition.
This is no surprise as the world press seems to adopt these "Freedom Fighters"
and give them a free pass.
It's going to stay messy for quite a while.
Bill C

Quoted message said:

From: "B. Lafferty" [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

The comparison was for the purpose of showing how sport can be uplifting to
a suffering country and it's people. Italian people lifted by Coppi and
Bartali. Iraqi people lifted by their soccer team at the Olympics.

Brian I think we all got that. Then again I have to wonder how popular these
athletes are at home. They were pampered, or tortured, by the regime but were
considered to be extensions of it generally. I'd also be surprised if we didn't
start hearing stories about the Iraqi athletes to paralell those from the
eastern bloc who worked for and with the "security services"
Bill C

B. Lafferty said:

Quoted message said:

The comparison was for the purpose of showing how sport can be uplifting to
a suffering country and it's people. Italian people lifted by Coppi and
Bartali. Iraqi people lifted by their soccer team at the Olympics.

I agree. But I would say that it is indeed "post-war," with regard to that
specific content of your original statement. That's all.

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Interesting article. It reminds me of what has been written about Coppi

and

Quoted message said:

Bartali feeding and uniting the post-war spirit of the Italian people.

Sport

Quoted message said:

can be a wonderful, positive force.
Caveat-- This is not to say that Iraq is truly post-war.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3579084.stm

I think there is a strong parallel. A few years ago an Italian octogenerian
told me about Bartali's TdF victory in '48: "We were poor, we were hungry,
we were humiliated, but he gave us back something of our dignity". I'm sure
that a lot of Iraqi's are feeling just the same about their football team.

Benjo Maso