intesections

Barry Gaudet <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

A recurring point I ponder:

I stop at a 4 lane 4 way intersection for the light. I plan to go straight. The curb lane widens
[but it is not a full lane] at the intersection to acommodate right-on-red turns.

Should I hug the curb or take the lane? If I hug the curb then auto's left turn around me and
when it is time to go I have to merge with autos on the other side of the intersection which I
consider to be the riskiest part of sharing the road with autos.

The law is, bikes should stay as far to the right as is 'practiceable'. That would seem to imply
that a bike should bug the curb.

Bug the curb indeed!

I have several intersections like this on my commute, where the predominant motor vehicle traffic
volume takes the right turn.* I never hug the curb. To my mind, it depends on how the cars are
signalling their intentions in front of, and behind me.

If the car in front is signalling that it is turning right, and is over to the right such that
there's lots of room for me, I pull next to the car on its left. If the car in front is signalling
that it is turning right, there's not enough room for me to be on its left, and the car behind me
is signalling it is turning right, I put myself in the lane in the leftish part of it, such that
the car behind me has the option of passing me on my right to make its right after the one in
front goes.

If the car in front has no turn signal, I put myself in the middle of the lane. If it turns right
anyway, I call out an encouragement to use a turn signal in the future and/or mutter to myself that
it is unfortunate for that driver to be so improverished that his/her turn signal is broken and they
have no money to fix it.

If there is no car in front of me, but the car behind me is signalling a right turn, I go to the
left of the lane such that it may pass me on my right and make the right turn at its option. If
there is no car in front of me, and the car behind me has no signal, then I sit in the middle of the
lane. If it turns right anyway, serves him/her right for not using it and having to sit behind me
waiting for the light to turn green.

As soon as the light turns green, I head for the rightish part of the lane ahead. Only once, some
strawberry blond doofus in a white Mercedes on a cell phone, has tried to force me to stay on the
left as he passed on the right straight ahead. I could see the look of terror in his eye as I caught
it with my steely one -- I think he was simply not paying attention and suddenly realized what the
situation was.

I use this method of lane positioning because I feel it is the most cooperative for the rest of
traffic. People who are anxious to make their right turns can make them, and I am not unnecessarily
blocking them. At the same time, no one makes a right without my tacit permission. People going
straight are able to pass me on my left in short order so I've scarcely delayed them.

Hugging the curb would mean that people would either be scared to take a right (rightly so), or
would whack me as they mindlessly took their right and I went straight. I *never* hug the right at
any controlled (signal or 4 way stop) intersection -- you have one or two close calls, and you
realize how dangerous that behavior is.

Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky Happy Fourth of July -- Independence, Liberty, and Equality May we ensure they
remain American values

*Primarily for Dane's benefit, for who else here knows the area? here are the intersections: Lake
Hills Blvd westbound at 148th SE; Eastgate Way eastbound at 150th Ave SE (cars getting on to I-90);
and, SE 8th St eastbound at 118th Ave SE (cars getting on to I-405) until just recently, when they
reconfig'ed the intersection.

Barry Gaudet said:

A recurring point I ponder:

I stop at a 4 lane 4 way intersection for the light. I plan to go straight. The curb lane widens
[but it is not a full lane] at the intersection to acommodate right-on-red turns.

Should I hug the curb or take the lane? If I hug the curb then
auto's left turn around me and when it is time to go I have to merge

Is there a separate light for left turn only? If so, I'd try and be in a place that I'm not
obstructing any cars *except* the ones going in my direction.

Quoted message said:

The law is, bikes should stay as far to the right as is 'practiceable'. That would seem to imply
that a bike should bug the curb.

Ask a cop what they think, and then do whatever you think is going to be least likely to get you
killed. Every single action I make on the road, at least when I'm thinking about it, is made in such
a way so as to minimise my chance of getting hit. That includes pulling over between a line of
parked cars if there's room for it and I have cars behind me to let them pass and such, but it also
includes getting to the proper portion of the road when waiting for a light, or when doing any
intersection for that matter.

Jasper

"Claire Petersky" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

If the car in front is signalling that it is turning right, and is over to the right such that
there's lots of room for me, I pull next to the car on its left. If the car in front is signalling
that it is turning right, there's not enough room for me to be on its left, and the car behind me
is signalling it is turning right, I put myself in the lane in the leftish part of it, such that
the car behind me has the option of passing me on my right to make its right after the one in
front goes.

If the car in front has no turn signal, I put myself in the middle of the lane. If it turns right
anyway, I call out an encouragement to use a turn signal in the future and/or mutter to myself
that it is unfortunate for that driver to be so improverished that his/her turn signal is broken
and they have no money to fix it.

If there is no car in front of me, but the car behind me is signalling a right turn, I go to the
left of the lane such that it may pass me on my right and make the right turn at its option. If
there is no car in front of me, and the car behind me has no signal, then I sit in the middle of
the lane. If it turns right anyway, serves him/her right for not using it and having to sit behind
me waiting for the light to turn green.

Precisely.

Pete

Robin Hubert said:

I will do that out of courtesy but not if it's demanded of me. I had a motorist ask me to move once
and, I said, "you wouldn't ask me to move if I was on my motorcycle or driving my car, so, wait
your turn!"

The whole "politeness" thing has pretty much passed you by, right?

Jasper

Robin Hubert said:

Tell me Robert, why never block a lane?

there's no reason to do so. It's rude when you do it on a bike, it's rude when you do it on a
motorcycle, it's rude when you do it in a car, and

Jasper

"Jasper Janssen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Robin Hubert said:

I will do that out of courtesy but not if it's demanded of me. I had a motorist ask me to move
once and, I said, "you wouldn't ask me to move if

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was on my motorcycle or driving my car, so, wait your turn!"

The whole "politeness" thing has pretty much passed you by, right?

Wrong. Out of human courtesy, I almost always move to the left of the right lane if I must and to
the left in general or even take the left lane on two-lanes if there's a bunch of right-turners and
I know the light will be changing in a few seconds, in which case I get on it and move over to the
right asap. If I have to practically enter another (occupied) lane after I've stopped just to let
somebody turn right and I don't deem it safe (i.e., an unecessary squeeze), well, they wait. Why do
you think a bicyclist should not be given equal respect as to right of way, and what makes my travel
space inferior to theirs?

--
Robin Hubert <[email hidden]

"Jasper Janssen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Robin Hubert said:

Tell me Robert, why never block a lane?

Quoted message said:

there's no reason to do so. It's rude when you do it on a bike, it's rude when you do it on a
motorcycle, it's rude when you do it in a car, and

Quoted message said:

You definetely have an axe to grind re. people getting in your way. Slow down and respect people.

--
Robin Hubert <[email hidden]

Fri, 04 Jul 2003 12:27:31 GMT, <[email hidden]>, "Robin

Hubert said:

I will do that out of courtesy but not if it's demanded of me. I had a motorist ask me to move once
and, I said, "you wouldn't ask me to move if I was on my motorcycle or driving my car, so, wait
your turn!"

I was lane-positioned for going straight through with cars next to me turning left. Lumpy rolls down
the window, points to the pedestrian crossing signal and says to me, "Go push the button".

"Blow me", just felt like the proper response.
--
zk

"Zoot Katz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Lumpy rolls down the window, points to the pedestrian crossing signal and says to me, "Go push the
button".

That would never happen to one of us.

Barry Gaudet <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

R15757 <[email hidden]> wrote: [...]

: Never hug the curb in a right turn lane.

It is not a right turn lane. It is a right_or_straight lane

: You should be able to find a seam in this intersection where you are not blocking right-turners,
: nor blocking straight through drivers,

But my point is that leaves me sandwiched if the space to the right is taken by someone who
decides to go straight.

Well if it's not a "right only" take the lane on the center line (leak oil line). Merge gracefully.
If someone's already there just get behind them. Scan all around for turn signals. In fact, scan
several times. If you're first in line you'll generally beat them off the mark and be through the
intersection while they're becoming aware the light has changed. Check your six and seven o clock
for random nits who change their minds at the last second.

Taking the inside line, like you seem to want to do is just asking to be rolled into.

Barry Gaudet said:

R15757 <[email hidden]> wrote: [...]

: Never hug the curb in a right turn lane.

It is not a right turn lane. It is a right_or_straight lane

: You should be able to find a seam in this intersection where you are not blocking right-turners,
: nor blocking straight through drivers,

But my point is that leaves me sandwiched if the space to the right is taken by someone who
decides to go straight.

True, but you should be through the intersection before they start up, shouldn't you?

I have one intersection I routinely come through that in the morning is 2 lanes of traffic, and the
right-hand lane is 95% right-turners. If I get stuck at the light, I always sit in the left hand
part of that lane so anyone who wants to turn right can. If they're going straight, I beat them
across the intersection and then it's "normal" car trying to overtake bike.

I've never had the instance where someone came up behind me quickly as I started off at the green
light and tried to go straight. (The lights are timed very well for cars to do that) It'll be
interesting to see what happens to me. Maybe I'll be able to post about it. 😉

Scott

garmonboezia <cthvlhv@r'lyeh.arg> wrote in news:JLrNa.38944$Xm3.8605@sccrnsc02:

Quoted message said:

Barry Gaudet <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

R15757 <[email hidden]> wrote: [...]

: Never hug the curb in a right turn lane.

It is not a right turn lane. It is a right_or_straight lane

: You should be able to find a seam in this intersection where you are not blocking right-turners,
: nor blocking straight through drivers,

But my point is that leaves me sandwiched if the space to the right is taken by someone who
decides to go straight.

Well if it's not a "right only" take the lane on the center line (leak oil line). Merge
gracefully. If someone's already there just get behind them. Scan all around for turn signals. In
fact, scan several times. If you're first in line you'll generally beat them off the mark and be
through the intersection while they're becoming aware the light has changed. Check your six and
seven o clock for random nits who change their minds at the last second.

Taking the inside line, like you seem to want to do is just asking to be rolled into.

By "turn signals" I mean signals on surrounding cars.

Fabrizio Mazzoleni said:

"Zoot Katz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Lumpy rolls down the window, points to the pedestrian crossing signal and says to me, "Go push
the button".

That would never happen to one of us.

Yes, it is too hard for people to speak while they are laughing.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

garmonboezia <cthvlhv@r'lyeh.arg> wrote:
:> [...]
: Taking the inside line, like you seem to want to do is just asking to be rolled into.

I'm sometimes a little annoyed at right turns around me - they would never try that on an auto.
But, OTOH, I can see it as understandable in the name of efficiency.

And personally I think I find it preferable to have a right-turner on my left than being far enough
out that they turn on my right.

--

'Ooh I will make you a believer'

- Sass Jordan

Scott Lindstrom <[email hidden]> wrote
: Barry Gaudet wrote:
:> [...] But my point is that leaves me sandwiched if the space to the right is taken by someone who
:> decides to go straight.

: True, but you should be through the intersection before they start up, shouldn't you?

Therein lies the problem. At the other side of the intersection I have a car that started out on my
right trying to get to the left of me.

And, IMHO this is the area where autos seem to pass at their closest -
just after an intersection. I've felt the brush of mirrors on my arm.

--

'Ooh I will make you a believer'

- Sass Jordan

Sat, 05 Jul 2003 01:38:42 GMT, <[email hidden]>, Lance's shadow,
"Fabrizio Mazzoleni" <[email hidden]> guessed:

Quoted message said:

"Zoot Katz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Lumpy rolls down the window, points to the pedestrian crossing signal and says to me, "Go push
the button".

That would never happen to one of us.

Because you guys don't stop. Traffic regulations are for lamers. Elite pro racers are above all that
pedestrian [censored]. Right?
--
zk

Claire Petersky <[email hidden]> wrote:
: Barry Gaudet <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
[..]
:> The law is, bikes should stay as far to the right as is 'practiceable'. That would seem to imply
:> that a bike should bug the curb.

: Bug the curb indeed!

The two times my coherency and typing skills are at their lowest: First thing when I get up before
the java kicks in. And at the end of a long day of swimming/cycling/work.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

--

'Ooh I will make you a believer'

- Sass Jordan

Jasper Janssen <[email hidden]> wrote:
: On 4 Jul 2003 03:20:16 GMT, Barry Gaudet <[email hidden]> wrote:
[...]
:> Should I hug the curb or take the lane? If I hug the curb then
:> auto's left turn around me and when it is time to go I have to merge

: Is there a separate light for left turn only? If so, I'd try and be in a place that I'm not
: obstructing any cars *except* the ones going in my direction.

Oops, another typo. I meant to say that auto's right turn around me.

Although it brings up another issue: Left turn lanes. When to make your move? I like to move in to
a newly forming left turn only lane as soon as it's wide enough and the traffic is clear. Of course
then I have autos passing me on the right then cutting in front to make the left turn.

--

'Ooh I will make you a believer'

- Sass Jordan

Robin Hubert said:

"Jasper Janssen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Robin Hubert said:

I will do that out of courtesy but not if it's demanded of me. I had a motorist ask me to move
once and, I said, "you wouldn't ask me to move if I was on my motorcycle or driving my car, so,
wait your turn!"

The whole "politeness" thing has pretty much passed you by, right?

Wrong. Out of human courtesy, I almost always move to the left of the right lane if I must and to
the left in general or even take the left lane on two-lanes if there's a bunch of right-turners and
I know the light will be changing in a few seconds, in which case I get on it and move over to the
right asap. If I have to practically enter another (occupied) lane after I've stopped just to let
somebody turn right and I don't deem it safe (i.e., an unecessary squeeze), well, they wait. Why do
you think a bicyclist should not be given equal respect as to right of way, and what makes my
travel space inferior to theirs?

You said, and I quote: "I will do that out of courtesy but not if it is demanded of me.". You didn't
say you'd do it when it's safe, and not when it's not safe. 100% behind you there. What you said was
something different, namely, that if someone asked you to move you'd stay put out of pure spite even
though you'd otherwise have moved.

Jasper

"Barry Gaudet" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

: True, but you should be through the intersection before they start up, shouldn't you?

Therein lies the problem. At the other side of the intersection I have a car that started out on
my right trying to get to the left of me.

And, IMHO this is the area where autos seem to pass at their closest -
just after an intersection. I've felt the brush of mirrors on my arm.

This is a thorny area. On one hand, *you* have to get across the intersection. On the other, they do
to. And so does the guy on their left. All at the same time. Trying to make 3 lanes out of two
leaves you, the cyclist, squished between the mirror and the curb.

Counterintuitively, you are giving them too much space. If they can pass without crossing over the
line, they will. No matter how close they come to you, and no matter how many lanes there are. And
if you've felt the mirror on your arm...another 2" would have knocked you down.

Often, people don't realize how far the far side of the car is. Quite a lot of states mandate a 3'
passing space. No one pays attention. Unfortunately, it is up to you to enforce that.

As has been said before...if the lane is not wide enough to share comfortably, move farther left,
and the car will take more space and go around.

Pete