Interesting Dutch data on cycling

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 11:51:53 +0000, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Had a look at the Dutch transport statistics last night and
interestingly there is a very strong correlation of income with cycled
distance. People earning over 30k Euros cycle twice as far as the
national average and as earnings increase the distance cycled increases
too. There is also a strong correlation with car ownership. Those with
a car always available cycled more than average, those with one
sometimes available around the national average and those with no car,
well below the national average - a surprising result and the opposite
of what I would have assumed. I wonder what the comparables are here.

The two charcteristics you quote are themselves related - car
ownership and income. It's likely they reflect another
characteristic, such as intelligence, or social conciousness, or good
breeding, or some combination of such factors.

Tony Raven said:

Had a look at the Dutch transport statistics last night and
interestingly there is a very strong correlation of income with cycled
distance. People earning over 30k Euros cycle twice as far as the
national average and as earnings increase the distance cycled increases
too. There is also a strong correlation with car ownership. Those with
a car always available cycled more than average, those with one
sometimes available around the national average and those with no car,
well below the national average - a surprising result and the opposite
of what I would have assumed. I wonder what the comparables are here.

Table 2.8 if you are interested in
http://www.rws-avv.nl/pls/portal30/docs/10198.XLS

Lots of other fascinating stuff in other table too.

I couldn't get the link to work, but your summary suggests a few hypotheses.

People earning more money tend to be better educated and therefore more
likely to understand the correlation between exercise and health, as
well as the correlation between personal car use and climate
change/resource depletion/pollution.

People with part time access to a car may value car use more because of
it's novelty, perceived prestige, and short term convenience. People
with full time access may value car use less because of familiarity, and
an increased awareness of the long term social and personal costs of
personal car use.

Dutch bikes appear to cost a good bit more than the cheap trash that
makes up so much of US and UK bicycle sales. People with no car
presumably earn less than the other two groups, and may not have the
ability or inclination to buy something as expensive and easily stolen
as a bicycle.

mark

mark wrote on 19/11/2006 15:53 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Table 2.8 if you are interested in
http://www.rws-avv.nl/pls/portal30/docs/10198.XLS

I couldn't get the link to work, but your summary suggests a few
hypotheses.

Just checked and it worked for me - but its a download of an Excel
spreadsheet rather than a web page link.

Quoted message said:

People earning more money tend to be better educated and therefore more
likely to understand the correlation between exercise and health, as
well as the correlation between personal car use and climate
change/resource depletion/pollution.

I've found similar data for the UK which goes the other way:

"The Great Britain proportions of those cycling to work in households
with no cars, one car and two or more cars were 6.7 per cent, 3.7 per
cent and 1.5 per cent respectively."
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_transstats/documents/page/dft_transstats_505587-04.hcsp#TopOfPage

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

mark said:

Tony Raven said:

Had a look at the Dutch transport statistics last night and
interestingly there is a very strong correlation of income with cycled
distance.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Table 2.8 if you are interested in
http://www.rws-avv.nl/pls/portal30/docs/10198.XLS

Lots of other fascinating stuff in other table too.

I couldn't get the link to work, but your summary suggests a few hypotheses.

Quoted message said:

Dutch bikes appear to cost a good bit more than the cheap trash that
makes up so much of US and UK bicycle sales. People with no car
presumably earn less than the other two groups, and may not have the
ability or inclination to buy something as expensive and easily stolen
as a bicycle.

Or it could be that the Dutch have a joined up public transport
network so you don't need to drive or cycle everywhere.
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

Tony Raven said:

I've found similar data for the UK which goes the other way:

"The Great Britain proportions of those cycling to work in households
with no cars, one car and two or more cars were 6.7 per cent, 3.7 per
cent and 1.5 per cent respectively."
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_transstats/documents/page/dft_transstats_505587-04.hcsp#TopOfPage

Better cycling facilities in the Netherlands than in the UK? Shorter
commute distances in the Netherlands? Fewer company cars in the
Netherlands? More prestige associated with car ownership/use in the UK
than in the Netherlands?

The UK seems to be trying to follow the US model of near universal car
ownership and heavy reliance on cars as the prime method of
transportation. This is spite of the fact that this hasn't been an
unqualified success for the US, and in spite of the fact that the UK's
much higher population density makes car ownership and use much more
difficult in the UK than in the US. The Dutch, on the other hand, seem
to have figured out that they really don't have room for everyone to own
a car and drive it everywhere, and they've taken steps to structure
their country so that an awful lot of people can live day to day without
a car and either save the car for discretionary and occasional use, or
do without a car entirely.

These are just impressions based on casual observation, I really don't
have any hard data.

mark

Tony Raven said:

Had a look at the Dutch transport statistics last night and
interestingly there is a very strong correlation of income with cycled
distance. People earning over 30k Euros cycle twice as far as the
national average and as earnings increase the distance cycled increases
too. There is also a strong correlation with car ownership. Those with
a car always available cycled more than average, those with one
sometimes available around the national average and those with no car,
well below the national average - a surprising result and the opposite
of what I would have assumed. I wonder what the comparables are here.

Table 2.8 if you are interested in
http://www.rws-avv.nl/pls/portal30/docs/10198.XLS

Lots of other fascinating stuff in other table too.

First thing which comes to mind: all students have free *) travel with
public transport, which ensures that a large group of non-carowners
cycle only very short distances

*) as in compulsory purchase
--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

The two charcteristics you quote are themselves related - car
ownership and income. It's likely they reflect another
characteristic, such as intelligence, or social conciousness, or good
breeding, or some combination of such factors.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pray tell me what 'good breeding' is.

Were Newton, Shakespeare, Einstein, Marie Currie, Galileo et al all
products of 'good breeding'? Or were they the offspring of glove
makers, yeoman farmers, servants, and 'ordinary people' and not the
Uber Mensch.

archierob wrote on 20/11/2006 08:15 +0100:

Quoted message said:

The two charcteristics you quote are themselves related - car
ownership and income. It's likely they reflect another
characteristic, such as intelligence, or social conciousness, or good
breeding, or some combination of such factors.

Odd then that the correlation is the other way round in the UK.

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

mark said:

Tony Raven said:

I've found similar data for the UK which goes the other way:

"The Great Britain proportions of those cycling to work in households
with no cars, one car and two or more cars were 6.7 per cent, 3.7 per
cent and 1.5 per cent respectively."
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_transstats/documents/page/dft_transstats_505587-04.hcsp#TopOfPage

Better cycling facilities in the Netherlands than in the UK? Shorter
commute distances in the Netherlands? Fewer company cars in the
Netherlands? More prestige associated with car ownership/use in the UK
than in the Netherlands?

The UK seems to be trying to follow the US model of near universal car
ownership and heavy reliance on cars as the prime method of
transportation. This is spite of the fact that this hasn't been an
unqualified success for the US, and in spite of the fact that the UK's
much higher population density makes car ownership and use much more
difficult in the UK than in the US. The Dutch, on the other hand, seem
to have figured out that they really don't have room for everyone to own
a car and drive it everywhere, and they've taken steps to structure
their country so that an awful lot of people can live day to day without
a car and either save the car for discretionary and occasional use, or
do without a car entirely.

These are just impressions based on casual observation, I really don't
have any hard data.

mark

It seems a long time back that Maggie was extolling the vision of the
'Great Car Economy'. We haven't really had a great vision since to
reverse the damage done in that era. It seems that the greatest problem
we have with the provision of cycle facilities is that they are planned
with cheapness being the primary factor, instead of efficacy for the
potential riders.

David

Sirius631 wrote on 20/11/2006 08:50 +0100:

Quoted message said:

It seems a long time back that Maggie was extolling the vision of the
'Great Car Economy'.

Plus the exhortations of her sidekick for the great unwashed to "get on
your bike" ;-)

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

Tony Raven said:

archierob wrote on 20/11/2006 08:15 +0100:

Quoted message said:

The two charcteristics you quote are themselves related - car
ownership and income. It's likely they reflect another
characteristic, such as intelligence, or social conciousness, or good
breeding, or some combination of such factors.

Odd then that the correlation is the other way round in the UK.

We have, IME, greater capacity for rank stupidity when it comes to
transport, so no, not that odd :-(

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

mark said:

Tony Raven said:

I've found similar data for the UK which goes the other way:

"The Great Britain proportions of those cycling to work in households
with no cars, one car and two or more cars were 6.7 per cent, 3.7 per
cent and 1.5 per cent respectively."
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_transstats/documents/page/dft_transstats_505587-04.hcsp#TopOfPage

Better cycling facilities in the Netherlands than in the UK? Shorter
commute distances in the Netherlands? Fewer company cars in the
Netherlands? More prestige associated with car ownership/use in the UK
than in the Netherlands?

The UK seems to be trying to follow the US model of near universal car
ownership and heavy reliance on cars as the prime method of
transportation. This is spite of the fact that this hasn't been an
unqualified success for the US, and in spite of the fact that the UK's
much higher population density makes car ownership and use much more
difficult in the UK than in the US. The Dutch, on the other hand, seem
to have figured out that they really don't have room for everyone to own
a car and drive it everywhere, and they've taken steps to structure
their country so that an awful lot of people can live day to day without
a car and either save the car for discretionary and occasional use, or
do without a car entirely.

These are just impressions based on casual observation, I really don't
have any hard data.

mark

The Netherlands is completely different to the UK in everything to do
with the bike. Some random observations I've made, based on many years
of travel there:

Distances between towns are short and the terrain is flat
Bicycle parking racks are EVERYWHERE in huge numbers (although are
often individually pretty rubbish; I don't see many Sheffield-type
ones, they are usually the front-wheel-only type). I estimated that at
Leiden Station one weekend in summer there were 3,000 cycles left
there.
Main stations have under-cover cycle parking and cycle repair / hire
shops, which stay open well into the early hours. Smaller ones will
have lockable lockers for bikes.
Most people don't dress in "cycling clothes"; they wear whatever they
need to wear; office gear, party dresses etc.
Almost nobody wears a helmet. The exceptions are lycra-clad people on
racing bikes, clearly out to do some serious cycling. These people
usually don't use cycle lanes.
Main roads have integral wide cycle lanes which are well signposted.
Often these take the short route. If the cycle lane meets an
intersection, there is provision for either roundabout, give-way or
cyclist-specific traffic lights. Motorists sitting at traffic lights
can see the cyclists (and trains) speeding past them.
Traffic lights often give cyclists priority
Cycles are welcome on trains
Train services are cheap, frequent, punctual and easy to use. To the
Dutch, their rail service is probably really boring. To someone who
fights most days with Worst Great Western, it's fantastic.
Bikes are usually "sit-up-and-beg" 3-speed affairs with very upright
saddles and often swept-back handlebars. The natural position is to
sit upright in a relaxed, stately way rather tthan crouched manacially
over the handlebars, as I am in the UK.
To cycle in the Netherlands, one has to regard oneself more as a
pedestrian rather than a motorist; there's no need to match one's speed
to that of cars; the only time the two come in close proximity is in
town when there's no room for segregated cycle lanes. In this case the
Dutch paint a cycle lane at each the side of the road, and the
motorists may drive with 2 wheels in it until they come up behind a
cycle, at which point they need to slow down to the cycle's speed, or
pull out to overtake. As there is almost inevitably a cyclist/car
queue coming the other way, the end result is that cyclists have the
right of way, and the cars match their speeds to the bikes'. Very well
thought out. One downside is that if you are in a hurry, other
cyclists never are, so cycling in the Netherlands is slower than in the
UK.
There's no stigma to being on a bike; businessmen in suits (well,
probably non-matching checked jacket and trousers) with expensive
briefcase on the back are common sights at rush hour.

Benefits of the above include a healthy active population, independent
kids (who at a young age can travel distances to their friends which
kids in the UK wouldn't be allowed), a safe feeling (you can't really
feel in danger of being mugged when there's 30 cyclists in full view;
of course, the danger of getting knocked down by a cyclist is much
higher, particularly for us Brits who don't realise that we're walking
in a cycle lane!)

The depressing thing about all of the above is that the Dutch still
love driving; they would often rather drive than walk/cycle/ride the
train, and traffic jams are a total pain. So if the Dutch can't solve
the problem, then we have no chance.

However, no reason not to try!

Peter.

al Mossah said:

The depressing thing about all of the above is that the Dutch still
love driving; they would often rather drive than walk/cycle/ride the
train, and traffic jams are a total pain. So if the Dutch can't solve
the problem, then we have no chance.

However, no reason not to try!

Peter.

Driving a car is an addictive pleasure, all we can hope for is to
control the addiction.

mark

al Mossah said:

The Netherlands is completely different to the UK in everything to do
with the bike. Some random observations I've made, based on many
years of travel there:

Distances between towns are short and the terrain is flat
Bicycle parking racks are EVERYWHERE in huge numbers (although are
often individually pretty rubbish; I don't see many Sheffield-type
ones, they are usually the front-wheel-only type). I estimated that
at Leiden Station one weekend in summer there were 3,000 cycles left
there.
Main stations have under-cover cycle parking and cycle repair / hire
shops, which stay open well into the early hours. Smaller ones will
have lockable lockers for bikes.
Most people don't dress in "cycling clothes"; they wear whatever they
need to wear; office gear, party dresses etc.
Almost nobody wears a helmet. The exceptions are lycra-clad people on
racing bikes, clearly out to do some serious cycling. These people
usually don't use cycle lanes.
Main roads have integral wide cycle lanes which are well signposted.
Often these take the short route. If the cycle lane meets an
intersection, there is provision for either roundabout, give-way or
cyclist-specific traffic lights. Motorists sitting at traffic lights
can see the cyclists (and trains) speeding past them.
Traffic lights often give cyclists priority
Cycles are welcome on trains
Train services are cheap, frequent, punctual and easy to use. To the
Dutch, their rail service is probably really boring. To someone who
fights most days with Worst Great Western, it's fantastic.
Bikes are usually "sit-up-and-beg" 3-speed affairs with very upright
saddles and often swept-back handlebars. The natural position is to
sit upright in a relaxed, stately way rather tthan crouched manacially
over the handlebars, as I am in the UK.
To cycle in the Netherlands, one has to regard oneself more as a
pedestrian rather than a motorist; there's no need to match one's
speed to that of cars; the only time the two come in close proximity
is in town when there's no room for segregated cycle lanes. In this
case the Dutch paint a cycle lane at each the side of the road, and
the motorists may drive with 2 wheels in it until they come up behind
a cycle, at which point they need to slow down to the cycle's speed,
or pull out to overtake. As there is almost inevitably a cyclist/car
queue coming the other way, the end result is that cyclists have the
right of way, and the cars match their speeds to the bikes'. Very
well thought out. One downside is that if you are in a hurry, other
cyclists never are, so cycling in the Netherlands is slower than in
the UK.
There's no stigma to being on a bike; businessmen in suits (well,
probably non-matching checked jacket and trousers) with expensive
briefcase on the back are common sights at rush hour.

Benefits of the above include a healthy active population, independent
kids (who at a young age can travel distances to their friends which
kids in the UK wouldn't be allowed), a safe feeling (you can't really
feel in danger of being mugged when there's 30 cyclists in full view;
of course, the danger of getting knocked down by a cyclist is much
higher, particularly for us Brits who don't realise that we're walking
in a cycle lane!)

The depressing thing about all of the above is that the Dutch still
love driving; they would often rather drive than walk/cycle/ride the
train, and traffic jams are a total pain. So if the Dutch can't solve
the problem, then we have no chance.

However, no reason not to try!

I'd say that's a pretty comprehensive and accurate description.
Couple of points.
Have you noticed, when waiting at one of those cycle-specific traffic
lights, if its a bit busy and there is a bunch waiting, when it turns green
there is always someone at the back who can't help blurting out (something
to the effect of) "yep" ?
Said lights used to be activated by pressing a button on a black and white
pole ( useful for hanging onto with both feet on pedals) but have largely
been superceded by detection loops. They have left the poles in place but I
suspect that the button is not connected anymore. I still give the button a
few jabs though, just in case it might hurry things up a bit.

--

Geoff

Phil Cook said:

Or it could be that the Dutch have a joined up public transport
network so you don't need to drive or cycle everywhere.

It has joined-up ticketing - excluding mainline rail, believe it or not
- but from substantial experience I wouldn't say that the entire
network is any more or less joined up than ours is in terms of
timetables, stop locations, information etc. The UK has become
substantially better at such things over the last 5-10 years.
Professionalism of bus operation is where the UK is really behind, I'd
say.

And Nederlandse Spoorwegen doesn't always run on time, whatever people
might say. They often make more sensible pathing choices (not sending
a stopping service out in front of a late express, for example),
though, and they do timetable for cross-platform connections more
effectively, but those are as broken as they are in the UK when things
run very late.

But, yes, people seem more willing to use public transport and cycle
for shorter journeys than in the UK, and that does result in city
traffic being not quite as bad as the UK. The motorway traffic jams
are impressive, though.

Neil

al Mossah said:

Distances between towns are short and the terrain is flat

Yep. It can be said that the Netherlands (or certainly the "Randstad"😉
is just one big conurbation.

Quoted message said:

Bicycle parking racks are EVERYWHERE in huge numbers (although are
often individually pretty rubbish; I don't see many Sheffield-type
ones, they are usually the front-wheel-only type).

The Dutch wonder why there's a cycle theft problem, and then lock their
bikes using those devices that immobilise the rear wheel only... do
that in the UK and it wouldn't be there an hour later, never mind a
day.

Quoted message said:

I estimated that at
Leiden Station one weekend in summer there were 3,000 cycles left
there.

Partly due to it being a student town, I'd say; there aren't as many
(but still loads) at Den Haag Centraal - and look at Oxford! Milton
Keynes also has rows of covered racks outside the station and these are
popular among commuters, though not quite to the same extent (probably,
at least in part, because MK is quite hilly).

Quoted message said:

Main stations have under-cover cycle parking and cycle repair / hire
shops, which stay open well into the early hours. Smaller ones will
have lockable lockers for bikes.

All chargeable, sometimes quite substantially, but I'd pay for a
"bewaakte Fietsenstalling" at MK Central if there was one. There's
quite a large chain of them (ahem) called Biesieklette, which I believe
is some sort of charity/nonprofit. An opening there in the UK,
perhaps?

Quoted message said:

Most people don't dress in "cycling clothes"; they wear whatever they
need to wear; office gear, party dresses etc.

And, possibly as a result, office clothes tend to be more "dressed
down" than the UK. Jeans and informal shirts are very common. Almost
nobody wears a suit day-to-day except high-level management.

Quoted message said:

Traffic lights often give cyclists priority

Rarely, IMX. Normally part of the usual cycle (sorry), and not
co-ordinated for going round an intersection to end up on the correct
side.

Quoted message said:

Cycles are welcome on trains

Wha? They're discouraged by way of a EUR 6 cycle ticket, and not
permitted at all in the peaks. In the UK, by contrast, they're free on
all TOCs except One Anglia and often allowed in the peaks away from the
London area. Despite being run by Serco/NS, Merseyrail's cycle policy
(allowed free at any time) contrasts massively with the Dutch one, for
example.

This is probably because of the number of bikes, but given that NS
generally operate long trains a bike van at one end wouldn't have been
that much of a challenge. Germany's better at such things, with plenty
of said vans (except, stupidly, ICEs, where bikes aren't allowed at
all) and bikes even allowed on a lot of buses.

Quoted message said:

Bikes are usually "sit-up-and-beg" 3-speed affairs with very upright
saddles and often swept-back handlebars. The natural position is to
sit upright in a relaxed, stately way rather tthan crouched manacially
over the handlebars, as I am in the UK.

They are very comfortable, indeed, and while not dirt-cheap are good
value. It surprises me that they're not more widely available in the
UK, as they are superbly practical and a pleasure to ride. I will be
taking one back with me when I finish working over here in .nl, but it
would be nice if supermarkets and the likes sold them instead of lousy
cheap-[censored] mountain bikes that aren't really fit for any purpose bar
playing in the park.

Quoted message said:

As there is almost inevitably a cyclist/car
queue coming the other way, the end result is that cyclists have the
right of way, and the cars match their speeds to the bikes'. Very well
thought out.

No, not well-thought-out. It results, as such situations often do in
the UK, in dangerous and ill-considered overtaking manoeuvres on the
part of the motorist. This is, of course, the motorist's fault, but it
could be designed away by making it a one-way street or diverting cars
away completely.

It's particularly bad in Leiden, where hundreds of bikes share a narrow
road with a two-way bus lane with a bus each way every couple of
minutes. This really does *not* work (IMO, cycles in narrow bus lanes
*never* work), and is in contrast to the usual clever design of bus
infrastructure in the Netherlands.

Quoted message said:

Benefits of the above include a healthy active population, independent
kids (who at a young age can travel distances to their friends which
kids in the UK wouldn't be allowed), a safe feeling (you can't really
feel in danger of being mugged when there's 30 cyclists in full view;
of course, the danger of getting knocked down by a cyclist is much
higher, particularly for us Brits who don't realise that we're walking
in a cycle lane!)

Yep! (A fat Dutchman, or Dutch kid, is far rarer than in the UK).

Neil

Neil Williams said:

al Mossah wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Distances between towns are short and the terrain is flat

Quoted message said:

Yep. It can be said that the Netherlands (or certainly the "Randstad"😉
is just one big conurbation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bicycle parking racks are EVERYWHERE in huge numbers (although are
often individually pretty rubbish; I don't see many Sheffield-type
ones, they are usually the front-wheel-only type).

Quoted message said:

The Dutch wonder why there's a cycle theft problem, and then lock their
bikes using those devices that immobilise the rear wheel only... do
that in the UK and it wouldn't be there an hour later, never mind a
day.

Last time I was in Amsterdam I found an interesting bicycle shop. It
was very long and narrow, and on shelves down wall were displayed a
long sequecne of ever bigger and tougher bicycle locks. If you then
turned round and faced the other wall, you would find the equipment
needed to get through that particulat lock/chain etc.. The biggest
bolt cutters looked like you'd need a wheelbarrow to carry them!

Walking home late one night with my Dutch friends we saw in the
distance of a deserted street an open backed lorry procedding slowly
towards us at a slow walking pace. On each side of the road a gang was
using giantic bolt cutters to unlock bicycles and throw them into the
back of the lorry. My friends suggested we should go out of our way
into another street "because those guys don't like witnesses."

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]