Insurance

In message <[email hidden]>

Dave Pickles said:

Whoo - just as I thought - the can's wide open

Oh dear

Quoted message said:

Bearing in mind we are a formally constituted club, I'll have to look
at some alternatives.

Yes if you have a constitution and membership criteria its difficult not
to be identified as a club for any liabilities

Quoted message said:

One thought ....... the idea elsewhere on this thread about
affiliation to a national club, to effectively "buy" cover for club
members. The Ramblers was mentioned - but I can't see anything about
club affiliation (or insurance for that matter)

I think that is possibly your best option to affiliate to a larger
organisation. If you go on walks in mountain areas and also scramble,
then the BMC is an obvious candidate. At present the BMC rate for
affiliated club members is still quite reasonable (much less than for
affiliation to Caving). If the RA also offer affiliation and you only go
walking then it might also be worth looking at them

Quoted message said:

Anyone else been here and found a way out?

--
M.R. Clark PhD
Cambridge University, Department of Pathology
Tennis Court Road, Cambridge CB2 1QP
Tel +44 (0)1223 333705

In message <[email hidden]>

Quoted post said:

"even if you are in the right."

That last part of the sentence is the issue with my views on the
matter.

It's not about right or wrong, if you take part in any non-work
activity it's of your own volition. Even being 'led' by an 'expert'
risk can't be eliminated. Just because the leader advocates a
particular path, action, etc, it is surely still within the individual
to make a judgement?????

Yes but your ability to make a judgement also depends upon your skills
and experience. So a very experienced person taking a complete novice
would have a greater duty of care than two equally experienced people.
But it is quite rightly up to the courts to decide on what circumstances
prevailed at the time.

Quoted message said:

We're only human after all, we all make mistakes....or was that a line
by Human League????

Yes but the law recognises that there is a continuum from wilful and
deliberate actions that endanger life, then there is negligence, and
onwards to unpredictable or unavoidable risk. What the law does is leave
it to be proved in a civil court (or I guess for wilful and deliberate
actions, e.g murder and manslaughter a criminal court) which of those
situations is most likely to have prevailed. It would be totally wrong
to make it impossible to sue in such situations.

For example if you took your car to a mechanic and asked for the brakes
to be repaired and later on you had an accident and discovered that the
person had not fixed them properly or used damaged or worn parts, you'd
want to be able to seek compensation.

So if you went climbing with a partner and they rigged up a belay which
failed and you were injured, and it turned out that they had knowingly
used a badly damaged piece of equipment for the belay wouldn't you also
want the right to seek compensation?

Just because you accept some of the risks of the activity doesn't mean
your happy for your colleague to show gross negligence for your safety.

--
o/ \\ // || ,_ o Mike Clark, "An antibody engineer who also
<\__,\\ // __o || / /\, likes the mountains"
"> || _`\<,_ // \\ \> | Cambridge Climbing and Caving Club
` || (_)/ (_) // \\ \_ <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/cccc/>

In article <[email hidden]>,
"[email hidden]" <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

We're only human after all, we all make
mistakes....or was that a line by Human League????

"I'm only human, born to make mistakes" IIRC

--

Dominic Sexton

BMC is £175 for 20 members + £8 each additional member
We have about 40 on average so that's definitely something to think hard on

"Mike Clark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In message <[email hidden]>

Dave Pickles said:

Whoo - just as I thought - the can's wide open

Oh dear

Quoted message said:

Bearing in mind we are a formally constituted club, I'll have to look
at some alternatives.

Yes if you have a constitution and membership criteria its difficult not
to be identified as a club for any liabilities

Quoted message said:

One thought ....... the idea elsewhere on this thread about
affiliation to a national club, to effectively "buy" cover for club
members. The Ramblers was mentioned - but I can't see anything about
club affiliation (or insurance for that matter)

I think that is possibly your best option to affiliate to a larger
organisation. If you go on walks in mountain areas and also scramble,
then the BMC is an obvious candidate. At present the BMC rate for
affiliated club members is still quite reasonable (much less than for
affiliation to Caving). If the RA also offer affiliation and you only go
walking then it might also be worth looking at them

Quoted message said:

Anyone else been here and found a way out?

--
M.R. Clark PhD
Cambridge University, Department of Pathology
Tennis Court Road, Cambridge CB2 1QP
Tel +44 (0)1223 333705

Unfortunately this is "Walks organised by Ramblers Areas and Groups
automatically receive third-party insurance cover, provided the leaders are
Ramblers members, through the Association?s national policy"

I suspect ad hoc walks may be a problem, and the Ramblers doesn't seem to
offer club affiliation

Thanks anyway

"Dave Pickles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bryan Hall said:

Whoo - just as I thought - the can's wide open

Bearing in mind we are a formally constituted club, I'll have to look at
some alternatives.

One thought ....... the idea elsewhere on this thread about affiliation

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a national club, to effectively "buy" cover for club members.
The Ramblers was mentioned - but I can't see anything about club
affiliation (or insurance for that matter)

http://www.ramblers.org.uk/info/organisers/leading.html#Insurance
--
Dave

bugger - I've finally ended up talking to myself
;-)

In message <[email hidden]>

Bryan Hall said:

BMC is £175 for 20 members + £8 each additional member
We have about 40 on average so that's definitely something to think
hard on

We have about 40 members in the CCCC. Another thing to bear in mind that
might make the BMC more palatable to some of your members is that if any
of them are currently individual members, then if you affiliate they can
upgrade the standard club membership you would give them to a full
individual membership at a discount. In other words for them it won't be
an additional cost. Also if you are a member of multiple affiliated
clubs e.g. I am an AC as well as a CCCC member, you get a discount for
being multiple charged for part of the insurance cover.

--
o/ \\ // || ,_ o Mike Clark, "An antibody engineer who also
<\__,\\ // __o || / /\, likes the mountains"
"> || _`\<,_ // \\ \> | Cambridge Climbing and Caving Club
` || (_)/ (_) // \\ \_ <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/cccc/>

Bryan Hall said:

Unfortunately this is "Walks organised by Ramblers Areas and Groups
automatically receive third-party insurance cover, provided the leaders
are Ramblers members, through the Association?s national policy"

The same paragraph continues "Similar cover, at advantageous rates, is
available to clubs and other organisations affiliated to the Ramblers."
However those "advantageous rates" don't seem to be spelled out online.
--
Dave

Thanks again Mike
I've passed the info on, to very glum looks - we thought we had nailed this
one

Time for some research & comparison but BMC looks the most relevant at
present

"Mike Clark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In message <[email hidden]>

Bryan Hall said:

BMC is £175 for 20 members + £8 each additional member
We have about 40 on average so that's definitely something to think
hard on

We have about 40 members in the CCCC. Another thing to bear in mind that
might make the BMC more palatable to some of your members is that if any
of them are currently individual members, then if you affiliate they can
upgrade the standard club membership you would give them to a full
individual membership at a discount. In other words for them it won't be
an additional cost. Also if you are a member of multiple affiliated
clubs e.g. I am an AC as well as a CCCC member, you get a discount for
being multiple charged for part of the insurance cover.

--
o/ \\ // || ,_ o Mike Clark, "An antibody engineer who also
<\__,\\ // __o || / /\, likes the mountains"
"> || _`\<,_ // \\ \> | Cambridge Climbing and Caving Club
` || (_)/ (_) // \\ \_ <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/cccc/>

Bugger -i really must read to the end
Back to the site I go
Thanks

Quoted message said:

The same paragraph continues "Similar cover, at advantageous rates, is
available to clubs and other organisations affiliated to the Ramblers."
However those "advantageous rates" don't seem to be spelled out online.
--
Dave

Interesting court summary in today's Time;s newspaper

"Swimmers accept the responsibility of using the municipal pool if
accidents, occur as they are assumed to understand swimming can be a risk"

Seems to contradict some of the other precedents - could be tears before
bedtime?

<millt> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

email hidden said:

"most lawyers would advise suing a party which has the resources to pay
compensation in the result that the claim is successful"

Just about sums up the "cotton-wool","sue" culture we appear to have
adopted from the other side of the pond!!

Damn right it does.
Take part in any activity such as this, & be prepared to take the
risk.
I totally agree with you Fen.
"cotton-wool","sue" sums it up very well indeed.
makes you wonder what kind of world your living in these days !

In message <[email hidden]>

Bryan Hall said:

Interesting court summary in today's Time;s newspaper

"Swimmers accept the responsibility of using the municipal pool if
accidents, occur as they are assumed to understand swimming can be a risk"

Seems to contradict some of the other precedents - could be tears before
bedtime?

Yes I think some people go somewhat overboard ;-) in their thinking and
understanding on the subject of risk and liability.

Using the example of swimming above, it is reasonable I think to assume
that an adult who goes swimming can reasonably be expected to
understand that there is a risk of injury and drowning and thus to
accept the risk. However were the municiple authority to one day reduce
the depth of the water and not warn regular swimmers that they had done
so, then they might be held to be liable for an injury to a swimmer who
dived in and hit their head on the bottom. In such an example the
municiple authority is showing negligence in its duty of care.

Its not accidents that are the problem, it is accidents caused by acts
of negligence that are the problem.

--
o/ \\ // || ,_ o Mike Clark, "An antibody engineer who also
<\__,\\ // __o || / /\, likes the mountains"
"> || _`\<,_ // \\ \> | Cambridge Climbing and Caving Club
` || (_)/ (_) // \\ \_ <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/cccc/>

To get round this liability issue I can see caving clubs abandoning
their constitutions and disbanding, only to meet up as "informal
gatherings" i.e. caving will be driven underground.

(Get it?)

"Mike Clark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In message <[email hidden]>

Bryan Hall said:

Interesting court summary in today's Time;s newspaper

"Swimmers accept the responsibility of using the municipal pool if
accidents, occur as they are assumed to understand swimming can be a

risk"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Seems to contradict some of the other precedents - could be tears before
bedtime?

Yes I think some people go somewhat overboard ;-) in their thinking and
understanding on the subject of risk and liability.

Using the example of swimming above, it is reasonable I think to assume
that an adult who goes swimming can reasonably be expected to
understand that there is a risk of injury and drowning and thus to
accept the risk. However were the municiple authority to one day reduce
the depth of the water and not warn regular swimmers that they had done
so, then they might be held to be liable for an injury to a swimmer who
dived in and hit their head on the bottom. In such an example the
municiple authority is showing negligence in its duty of care.

That's very clear cut though - as is a swimmer just getting into deep water
and drowning when it's clearly signed (their fault). It is (as always) the
grey areas that get you (and get lawyers their fees). If the edging tiles on
the pool were more slippery than one would normally expect and a swimmer
slipped and banged their head, is this a normal risk of going to a swimming
pool or not? We can all quote extreme and easily worked out examples until
the cows come home (I suspect) :o)

--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

awwwwwwwwwww
;-)

Quoted message said:

Do I need insurance, and if so what sort (and where from)?

I am organising, and leading, two teams on attempts to complete the
Welsh 3000's this summer. I have no formal MLTB qualifications,
although by and large the teams are experienced walkers (some more so
than me!)and include people with experience from organising events such
as the 10 Tors.

A lot of good advice from others. Mine would be to contact the BMC
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/ as they have lots of experience and knowledge
about this sort of thing and will be able to give you a definitive
answer.

S.
--
Stop ID cards and the Database State
http://www.no2id.net/

This "equal liability for all members" thing really won't do at all,
though often quoted - even by Caving's National body ! Just a moment's
thought would show this to be far-fetched- if you join the "Blur Fan
Club", which somehow becomes liable for this or that, are you
suggesting that the plaintiff could go round suing people who had
absolutely nothing to do with the "incident" ? Although Club law
(Unincorporated associations) is not always very clear, it certainly
isn't that ! You will not find it in a sersious law book on Tort - and
I've read a few.

There is rather a good paper on club law from IIRC the Northern Ireland
office. It's on the web somewhere.

Cheers

Hywel