Indurain TT position

Hey

Comparing Indurain and Armstrong in the Tour TT's that they did together is STUPID. You look like
a moron for typing it.

Maybe to prove your theory that Indurain is 6 minutes faster would be debuked if the Tour society
let the Big Mig be the 199th rider in a sort of special exhibition ride in the 2004 TT stages. My
guess is that LA puts more than 6 minutes into Big Mig. IDIOT.

Mig was faster than LA in 1993. Wow. You probably could have intercepting boarding terrorists at
the gate 9-11-01, because you are so smart. Or blown them up the day before, when they sat at a
strip club.

Let's also make sure the two race at 70 years old, just to further prove how trivial you
have become.

It must be off season. Not a single good thread here in 8 days.

Thanks, Ronde Chumpion.

I'm faster than ALL world champions from 2011 to 2023.

[email hidden] (Rik O'Shea) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not quite there... Indurain was much lower.

Quoted message said:

bikelane.combig mig1.jpgOpen ↗

For a big bloke Indurain looks very aerodnamic to me (not to mention having great style). I think
he had a large frontal area - wide shoulders - which would have contributed to drag. He definely
looks more aero than Armstrong (although Armstrong would have a narrower frontal area).

He was certainly very tall and relatively heavy, like Michael Rich.

Quoted message said:

Incidently I dont think Armstrong ever findished within 5 minutes of Indurain in a TdF time trial
(generally he used to be about 6:30 minutes behind).

Not including prologues, of course - but Lance never beat him in a prologue, either.

1993:

1994. Miguel Indurain en 8'12" (Moy : 49.756 km/h)
1995. Alex Zülle à 8"
1996. Djamolidine Abdoujaparov à 45"
1997. Bo Hamburger à 47"
1998. Lance Armstrong, s.t.

1999:

2000. Chris Boardman (Gbr) en 7'49" (Moy : 55.266 km/h)
2001. Miguel Indurain à 15"
2002. Lance Armstrong à 39"
2003. Abraham Olano, s.t.

2004:

2005. Jacky Durand en 9'00" (Moy : 48.666 km/h)
2006. Frankie Andreu à 5"
2007. Miguel Indurain à 31"
2008. Vjatcheslav Ekimov à 32"
2009. Lance Armstrong à 33"

2010:

2011. Alex Zülle en 10'53" (Moy : 51.822 km/h)
2012. Chris Boardman à 2"
2013. Bjarne Riis à 11"
2014. Miguel Indurain à 12"
2015. Christophe Moreau à 24"
2016. Lance Armstrong, s.t.

"Rik O'Shea" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not quite there... Indurain was much lower.

Quoted message said:

bikelane.combig mig1.jpgOpen ↗

For a big bloke Indurain looks very aerodnamic to me (not to mention having great style). I think
he had a large frontal area - wide shoulders - which would have contributed to drag. He definely
looks more aero than Armstrong (although Armstrong would have a narrower frontal area).

Incidently I dont think Armstrong ever findished within 5 minutes of Indurain in a TdF time trial
(generally he used to be about 6:30 minutes behind).

And then?

Quoted message said:

It was in the 1993 edition of the TdF that Armstrong was leading Indurain on GC (Armstrong had the
yellow jersey) 66 places (14 seconds) in front of Indurain going into the first ITT Lac de Madine,
59 km ITT. Armstrong's tactic was not to go out too fast and "wait" for Indurain; then try and
work off Indurain's pace for as long as possible so as not to loose too much time - he ended up
"only" loosing 6'04".

Stage 9 - 59 km ITT 1993
1. Miguel Indurain en 1h12'50"
2. Bugno à 2'11"
3. Breukink à 2'22"
4. Rominger à 2'42"
5. Zulle à 3'18"
6. Bruyneel à 3'50"
7. Jaskula à 4'00"
8. Alcala à 4'05"
9. Louviot à 4'28"
10. Roche à 4'30"
27. Armstrong à 6'04"

Stage 9 - 64 km ITT 1994
1. Miguel Indurain (Spa) 1:15.58
2. Tony Rominger (Zwi) + 2.00
3. Armand de las Cuevas(Fra) + 4.22
4. Thierry Marie (Fra) + 4.45
5. Chris Boardman (GB) + 5.27
6. Bjarne Riis (Den) + 5.34
7. Thomas Davy (Fra) st
8. Abraham Olano (Spa) + 5.45
9. Arturis Kasputis (Lit) + 6.01
10. Pjotr Oegroemov (Let) + 6.04
11. Gianluca Bortolami (Ita) + 6.12
12. Nico Emonds (Bel) + 6.16
13. Lance Armstrong (VS) + 6.23

Stage 8 - 54 kms ITT 1995
1. Miguel Indurain (Spa) 1:04.16'
19. Lance Armstrong (VS) + 5.09'

Stage 19, 46.5km time trial Auphelle--Auphelle 1995

1. Miguel Indurain (Esp - Banesto) 00:57:34.
43. Lance Armstrong (USA) + 6:24.

1996 No Time Trial info for 1996 - Armstrong abandoned on first mountain stage Croix de la Serra
(2-1049) -> Van Bon

1997-98 Armstrong did not compete

1999 - 2003 you know the story

-R

So? He did not TT very well in races where he was not in GC contention. We know. He gets a lot of
additional performance when he is hyper motivated. That has been true from the moment he threw his
leg over his first race bike until today.

[email hidden] (ronde chumpion) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Comparing Indurain and Armstrong in the Tour TT's that they did together is STUPID. Maybe to prove
your theory that Indurain is 6 minutes faster would be debuked if the Tour society let the Big Mig
be the 199th rider in a sort of special exhibition ride in the 2004 TT stages. My guess is that LA
puts more than 6 minutes into Big Mig. IDIOT.

Obviously this has touched a raw nerve with Mr Chump. I am not prosposing any THEORY here only
stating FACT and after all the ITT is regarded as the "race of truth". It might be inappropriate to
compare riders from different eras. This is a comparison of two riders from the same era who rode
the same race at the same time. Armstrong competed in 4 Tours against Big Mig. He was already a
mature athlete when he became a pro and would have had time to mature over a five year period
bringing him up to the '96 Tour. After the '93 ITT he is on record as saying that he could never
even contemplate winning a Tour while Big Mig was competing and his goal was to try to improve his
TT by 1" a year - possibly with an outside chance of being competitive by the time Big Mig retired.

So Mr Chump lets keep the purile sarcasism to a minimum and deal with the facts.

-R

Such a comparison is far too simplistic. I would wager that Armstrong is more aero, though. In fact,
it was reported that Indurain was actually more aero simply riding the drops, but he found this to
be very uncomfortable. In terms of drag, however, large riders tend to do better than small riders
largely due to the fact that relative to their front area drag they produce far more power, and thus
go faster.

So, while Hera may perfect his position, he'll never be so aero that he'll match the big TT
specialists. Very few small riders (Colby Pierce is one well known exception) can overcome this
watts disadvantage. Lance, however, has become extremely aero and has the advantage of being larger
and more powerful. Whether he could beat Indurain at his best is equivical, but he could probably
have dropped him in the mountains. But we'll never know for sure.

CH

[email hidden] (Rik O'Shea) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not quite there... Indurain was much lower.

Quoted message said:

bikelane.combig mig1.jpgOpen ↗

For a big bloke Indurain looks very aerodnamic to me (not to mention having great style). I think
he had a large frontal area - wide shoulders - which would have contributed to drag. He definely
looks more aero than Armstrong (although Armstrong would have a narrower frontal area).

Incidently I dont think Armstrong ever findished within 5 minutes of Indurain in a TdF time trial
(generally he used to be about 6:30 minutes behind).

It was in the 1993 edition of the TdF that Armstrong was leading Indurain on GC (Armstrong had the
yellow jersey) 66 places (14 seconds) in front of Indurain going into the first ITT Lac de Madine,
59 km ITT. Armstrong's tactic was not to go out too fast and "wait" for Indurain; then try and
work off Indurain's pace for as long as possible so as not to loose too much time - he ended up
"only" loosing 6'04".

Stage 9 - 59 km ITT 1993
1. Miguel Indurain en 1h12'50"
2. Bugno à 2'11"
3. Breukink à 2'22"
4. Rominger à 2'42"
5. Zulle à 3'18"
6. Bruyneel à 3'50"
7. Jaskula à 4'00"
8. Alcala à 4'05"
9. Louviot à 4'28"
10. Roche à 4'30"
27. Armstrong à 6'04"

Stage 9 - 64 km ITT 1994
1. Miguel Indurain (Spa) 1:15.58
2. Tony Rominger (Zwi) + 2.00
3. Armand de las Cuevas(Fra) + 4.22
4. Thierry Marie (Fra) + 4.45
5. Chris Boardman (GB) + 5.27
6. Bjarne Riis (Den) + 5.34
7. Thomas Davy (Fra) st
8. Abraham Olano (Spa) + 5.45
9. Arturis Kasputis (Lit) + 6.01
10. Pjotr Oegroemov (Let) + 6.04
11. Gianluca Bortolami (Ita) + 6.12
12. Nico Emonds (Bel) + 6.16
13. Lance Armstrong (VS) + 6.23

Stage 8 - 54 kms ITT 1995
1. Miguel Indurain (Spa) 1:04.16'
19. Lance Armstrong (VS) + 5.09'

Stage 19, 46.5km time trial Auphelle--Auphelle 1995

1. Miguel Indurain (Esp - Banesto) 00:57:34.
43. Lance Armstrong (USA) + 6:24.

1996 No Time Trial info for 1996 - Armstrong abandoned on first mountain stage Croix de la Serra
(2-1049) -> Van Bon

1997-98 Armstrong did not compete

1999 - 2003 you know the story

-R

Quoted message said:

So? He did not TT very well in races where he was not in GC contention. We know. He gets a lot of
additional performance when he is hyper motivated. That has been true from the moment he threw his
leg over his first race bike until today.

Most of the information provided comes from the first ITT from the TdF (this is generally because
Armstrong would have abondoned before the second ITT - although he did finish the '95 Tour in a
credable 36th place à 1h28'06"😉. The additional info from Sonarrat is from the Prologue.

Armstrong was extremely motivated for the prologue and the first ITTs. However you seem to be
suggesting that while he held the yellow jersey and the lead on GC in the '93 tour going into the
first ITT that he wasn't motivated. I think Jim Ochowicz the director of Motorala at the time might
disagree - hence the strategy for Armstrong to try and pace his own TT against Indurain in an effort
to retain the jersey.

Although you do pose an interesting physiological question - how much are the physically defined
limits of one's aerobic power threshold increased when one is "hyper motivated" ?

What would you say "hyper motivation" adds to this physical limit
(1) 10 watts (2) 15 watts or (3) 150 watts ?

Rik O'Shea said:

Although you do pose an interesting physiological question - how much are the physically defined
limits of one's aerobic power threshold increased when one is "hyper motivated" ?

What would you say "hyper motivation" adds to this physical limit
(1) 10 watts (2) 15 watts or (3) 150 watts ?

What if the rider get to throw himself on the ground?

"Rik O'Shea" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So? He did not TT very well in races where he was not in GC contention.

We

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

know. He gets a lot of additional performance when he is hyper

motivated.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That has been true from the moment he threw his leg over his first race

bike

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

until today.

Most of the information provided comes from the first ITT from the TdF (this is generally because
Armstrong would have abondoned before the second ITT - although he did finish the '95 Tour in a
credable 36th place à 1h28'06"😉. The additional info from Sonarrat is from the Prologue.

Armstrong was extremely motivated for the prologue and the first ITTs. However you seem to be
suggesting that while he held the yellow jersey and the lead on GC in the '93 tour going into the
first ITT that he wasn't motivated. I think Jim Ochowicz the director of Motorala at the time
might disagree - hence the strategy for Armstrong to try and pace his own TT against Indurain in
an effort to retain the jersey.

Which jersey are you talking about being held by whom?

Quoted message said:

Although you do pose an interesting physiological question - how much are the physically defined
limits of one's aerobic power threshold increased when one is "hyper motivated" ?

What would you say "hyper motivation" adds to this physical limit
(1) 10 watts (2) 15 watts or (3) 150 watts ?

It would vary by athlete. Armstrong is an interesting speciman that seems to be able to tolerate
pushing his body very hard when he needs to. Look at last year's ITT where he raced just fast enough
to retain the GC lead in spite of severe dehydration. He placed second to a super fast Ullrich all
the while suffering like a dog. This is the most unique aspect of Armstrong as an athlete. He can
tolerate a lot of pain without blowing up. There is likely a physical component along with the
mental component that he talks about so frequently.

I can't believe I am defending him.

"Nick Burns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Which jersey are you talking about being held by whom?

Quoted message said:

Although you do pose an interesting physiological question - how much are the physically defined
limits of one's aerobic power threshold increased when one is "hyper motivated" ?

What would you say "hyper motivation" adds to this physical limit
(1) 10 watts (2) 15 watts or (3) 150 watts ?

It would vary by athlete. Armstrong is an interesting speciman that seems to be able to tolerate
pushing his body very hard when he needs to. Look at last year's ITT where he raced just fast
enough to retain the GC lead in spite of severe dehydration. He placed second to a super fast
Ullrich all the while suffering like a dog. This is the most unique aspect of Armstrong as an
athlete. He can tolerate a lot of pain without blowing up. There is likely a physical component
along with the mental component that he talks about so frequently.

Dear Nick, thank you for your response. I do not think that you may have understood the issues as
they are presented so let me summarise them for you:

(1) Armstrong rode all his ITTs in the 93-96 Tours to his max physical capacity. He did this because
the first ITTs were in the early part of the Tour and he was still in contention for the GC
(General Classification) at the point in time. In '93 he held the yellow jersey (this is the
leaders jersey) going into the first ITT and his strategy was to ride as hard as he could to try
and limit his losses and possibly retain the yellow jersey. However he still finished over 6
minutes behind Indurain.

(2) All endurance athletes have an aerobic threshold. This can be measured quite accurrately in a
lab which will assign a specific wattage value to one's aerobic threshold. Most people who race
or compete in TTs will have a knowlege of this value - all professionals will have a precise
knowledge of this value. This threshold (the potential upper limit of which is largely
hereditary) can vary depending on one's state of fitness and may be improved upon to some degree
over a period of time through precise training but once it is established at any given point in
time it can not be increased at that particular point in time no matter how "hyper motivated"
you are. This is a physiological fact - it is not something that is open to interpretation. A
well trained athlete can for a short period of time (generally in short prologues or a 4000m
pursuit) exceed his aerobic threshold by "going anaerobic" to produce a faster time. However
this is not possible in "long" TdF time trials. In summary to answer the question posed: "What
would hyper motivation add to this physical limit ?". The answer is 0 watts.

-R

In article said:

(2) All endurance athletes have an aerobic threshold. This can be measured quite accurrately in a
lab which will assign a specific wattage value to one's aerobic threshold. Most people who
race or compete in TTs will have a knowlege of this value - all professionals will have a
precise knowledge of this value. This threshold (the potential upper limit of which is largely
hereditary) can vary depending on one's state of fitness and may be improved upon to some
degree over a period of time through precise training but once it is established at any given
point in time it can not be increased at that particular point in time no matter how "hyper
motivated" you are. This is a physiological fact - it is not something that is open to
interpretation. A well trained athlete can for a short period of time (generally in short
prologues or a 4000m pursuit) exceed his aerobic threshold by "going anaerobic" to produce a
faster time. However this is not possible in "long" TdF time trials.

Actually it could be. The statistical average amount of lactate for lactate threshold in bike racers
is very close to 4mMol. Lance is able to "tolerate" 5mMol for long periods and perhaps this enables
him to do more work than someone else at their LT. Other athletes can also tolerate high amounts of
lactate but they tend to gravitate to other sports or shorter events.

-WG

"Rik O'Shea" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(2) All endurance athletes have an aerobic threshold.

<snip>

So what do non-endurance athletes have?

"Rik O'Shea" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Dear Nick, thank you for your response. I do not think that you may have understood the issues as
they are presented so let me summarise them for you:

(1) Armstrong rode all his ITTs in the 93-96 Tours to his max physical capacity.

I disagree.

He did this because the first ITTs were in the early part of

Quoted message said:

the Tour and he was still in contention for the GC (General Classification) at the point in time.

He had no plans to finish. I think you are looking at the wrong decade. The www.letour.fr site is
having touble with its archive search but I will have a look later.

In '93 he held the yellow jersey

Quoted message said:

(this is the leaders jersey) going into the first ITT and his strategy

In 2003 or '93?

Quoted message said:

was to ride as hard as he could to try and limit his losses and possibly retain the yellow jersey.
However he still finished over 6 minutes behind Indurain.

Quoted message said:

(2) All endurance athletes have an aerobic threshold. This can be measured quite accurrately in a
lab which will assign a specific wattage value to one's aerobic threshold. Most people who
race or compete in TTs will have a knowlege of this value -

Agreed

Quoted message said:

all professionals will have a precise knowledge of this value. This threshold (the potential upper
limit of which is largely hereditary) can vary depending on one's state of fitness and may be
improved upon to some degree over a period of time through precise training but once it is
established at any given point in time it can not be increased at that particular point in time no
matter how "hyper motivated" you are.

Agreed. The phrase he keep quoting was my efforts at pointing out that Lance has the ability to
drive closer to his limits than most other elite cyclists. If others are pushing at 97 or 98 % , he
is going 98.5 or 99%.

Quoted message said:

This is a physiological fact - it is not something that is open to interpretation.

Agreed. I simply stated that he was not going anywhere near his maximum in the pre-cancer Tours.

A well trained athlete can for a short period of time

Quoted message said:

(generally in short prologues or a 4000m pursuit) exceed his aerobic threshold by "going
anaerobic" to produce a faster time. However this is not possible in "long" TdF time trials. In
summary to answer the question posed: "What would hyper motivation add to this physical limit ?".
The answer is 0 watts.

Nobody said that it adds to the limits, I said it adds to the performance. There is a huge
difference between the two staements.

The question you can ask yourself is what can a hyper motivated athlete add to his personal best if
he becomes more motivated than ever? No athlete ever goes at 100%. It just does not happen that way.
We may feel like we are and we hear the athletes say afterwards that they went "110%", "120%" is
popular and then there are those that go 200% or even 1000%! Still, it is more like high 90s and
motivation is a big factor. Them's the facts.

You apparently agree or else you would not have bothered to point out that Lance (according to you)
was in the lead going in to the first ITT. IF you turn out to be correct on that point then I will
apologize because that would change my argument completely. However, I do not believe you are even
close. The only jersey Lance had that year was the US Pro Camp's jersey.

I will check back with you once I can get in to the Tour's archives.

Nick Burns said:

You apparently agree or else you would not have bothered to point out that Lance (according to
you) was in the lead going in to the first ITT. IF you turn out to be correct on that point then I
will apologize because that would change my argument completely. However, I do not believe you are
even close. The only jersey Lance had that year was the US Pro Camp's jersey.

Lance most assuredly was NOT in yellow in 1993. He won a stage into Verdun. That is all.

Stewart Fleming said:

Nick Burns said:

You apparently agree or else you would not have bothered to point out that Lance (according to
you) was in the lead going in to the first ITT. IF you turn out to be correct on that point then
I will apologize because that would change my argument completely. However, I do not believe you
are even close. The only jersey Lance had that year was the US Pro Camp's jersey.

Lance most assuredly was NOT in yellow in 1993. He won a stage into Verdun. That is all.

1993 TdF Stage, Winner, Yellow Prologue, Indurain, Indurain 1, Cipollini, Indurain 2, Nelissen,
Nelissen 3, Abdujaparov, Nelissen 4, GB-MG-Maglifico, Cipollini 5, Skibby, Nelissen 6, Bruyneel,
Cipollini 7, Riis, Museeuw 8, Armstrong, Museeuw 9, Indurain, Indurain <- ITT 10, Rominger, Indurain
11, Rominger, Indurain 12, Roscioli, Indurain 13, Ludwig, Indurain 14, Lino, Indurain 15, Rincon,
Indurain 16, Jaskula, Indurain 17, Chiapucci, Indurain 18, Abdujaparov, Indurain 19, Rominger,
Indurain <- ITT 20, Abdujaparov, Indurain

In article 1067496583.452787@ns said:

Nick Burns said:

You apparently agree or else you would not have bothered to point out that Lance (according to
you) was in the lead going in to the first ITT. IF you turn out to be correct on that point then
I will apologize because that would change my argument completely. However, I do not believe you
are even close. The only jersey Lance had that year was the US Pro Camp's jersey.

Lance most assuredly was NOT in yellow in 1993. He won a stage into Verdun. That is all.

I'd say that LA was not at any GT with serious aspirations for GC position until the Vuelta in
'98, where he finished a close fourth. Before that, the aim was stage wins.

--
tanx, Howard

"Danger, you haven't seen the last of me!"
"No, but the first of you turns my stomach!"
Firesign Theatre

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Rik O'Shea said:

Dear Nick, thank you for your response. I do not think that you may have understood the issues as
they are presented so let me summarise them for you:

[snip]

Dear Rik:

I do not think that you may have understood the main issue, so let me summarise it for you:

You're a nut.

Nick Burns said:

I will check back with you once I can get in to the Tour's archives.

Try memoire-du-cyclisme.netpresentation tdf.phpOpen ↗

Stewart Fleming <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Lance most assuredly was NOT in yellow in 1993. He won a stage into Verdun. That is all.

Dear Stewart, thank you for this clarification. You are indeed correct, Armstrong was not in yellow
in 1993 and I do apologise for this mistake as I had confused this with the stage 9 1994 Tour where
he wore the World Road Race Champion's jersey

I have checked my tapes for the direct information. It was actually 1994 were Armstrong was in 8th
and Indurain in 7th position going into the stage 9 Périgueux-Bergerac, 64 km ITT.

Armstrong started 2 minutes in front of Indurain and the strategy as outlined by his Motorola
director sportif was to not go out 100%, efectively keeping some reserves for when Indurain would
eventually pass him and to work off Indurain's pace (yes use Indurain as a pace maker of sorts). The
goal was to try to limit his losses to "only" 3 to 4 minutes to Indurain.

It is true to say that Armstrong (resplendent in his World Championship jersey) was indeed
working at his aerobic maximum to hold onto Indurain's pace. Despite this Armstrong finished
6'23" behind Indurain.

In the televised interview afterwards Armstrong explained that he would never beat Indurain in the
Tour and his goal was to try to improve his time trial capability by 1" (one minute) a year.

I hope this explanation rectifies my earlier mistake.

Thanks & regards R

Stewart Fleming <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Lance most assuredly was NOT in yellow in 1993. He won a stage into Verdun. That is all.

Dear Stewart, thank you for this clarification. You are indeed correct, Armstrong was not in yellow
in 1993 and I do apologise for this mistake as I had confused this with the stage 9 1994 Tour where
he wore the World Road Race Champion's jersey

I have checked my tapes for the direct information. It was actually 1994 were Armstrong was in 8th
and Indurain in 7th position going into the stage 9 Périgueux-Bergerac, 64 km ITT.

Armstrong started 2 minutes in front of Indurain and the strategy as outlined by his Motorola
director sportif was to not go out 100%, efectively keeping some reserves for when Indurain would
eventually pass him and to work off Indurain's pace (yes use Indurain as a pace maker of sorts). The
goal was to try to limit his losses to "only" 3 to 4 minutes to Indurain.

It is true to say that Armstrong (resplendent in his World Championship jersey) was indeed
working at his aerobic maximum to hold onto Indurain's pace. Despite this Armstrong finished
6'23" behind Indurain.

In the televised interview afterwards Armstrong explained that he would never beat Indurain in the
Tour and his goal was to try to improve his time trial capability by 1" (one minute) a year.

I hope this explanation rectifies my earlier mistake.

Thanks & regards R