Indoor Cadence for Climbers

dhk2 said:

Like others here, I've been inspired by Tyson to work harder on FTP via indoor training on the stationary bikes at the local YMCA. Normally I pedal a cadence in the range of 92-95, with some quick accelerations up to 140-150.
However, on a steep climb out on the road with a group this weekend, it occurred to me that for climbing here "high" power is needed at much lower cadence.

EG, on the 15% grade yesterday, was climbing at 4.5-5 mph seated, which I believe requires around 275-300W output for a 200 lb rider+bike. (The hard effort felt about like 275W does on the trainer as well). At this speed, in my (wimpy) 30/25 low gear, cadence is about 50 rpm, well short of the 90-95 that I use for almost all the interval durations.

Many of the club rides here feature 10-20% climbs which really tend to sort out the group, so climbing faster and being able to recover quickly to stay with the pack is a key goal. The obvious question is, should I be doing at least a portion of the indoor interval work at 50 rpm? 275W certainly feels a bit different at 50 rpm than at 100 :eek:

wouldn't the other option be to just get a wider gear ratio with some lower gears so you would be forced to ride at 50 rpms?

dhk2 said:

The obvious question is, should I be doing at least a portion of the indoor interval work at 50 rpm? 275W certainly feels a bit different at 50 rpm than at 100 :eek:

FTP is primarily a metabolic phenomenon, rather than a neuromuscular one, but if the steep climbs feel that much more distressing then it might help to mix in some lower cadence reps with hands on the bar tops.

Deliberate grinding of your knee joint cartilages is not training but torture. Don't see too much value in it. If there are many such grades in your ride that requires a cadence of 50, maybe it's smarter to consider getting a different cassette while you work to increase your FTP.

dhk2 said:

Like others here, I've been inspired by Tyson to work harder on FTP via indoor training on the stationary bikes at the local YMCA. Normally I pedal a cadence in the range of 92-95, with some quick accelerations up to 140-150.
However, on a steep climb out on the road with a group this weekend, it occurred to me that for climbing here "high" power is needed at much lower cadence.

EG, on the 15% grade yesterday, was climbing at 4.5-5 mph seated, which I believe requires around 275-300W output for a 200 lb rider+bike. (The hard effort felt about like 275W does on the trainer as well). At this speed, in my (wimpy) 30/25 low gear, cadence is about 50 rpm, well short of the 90-95 that I use for almost all the interval durations.

Many of the club rides here feature 10-20% climbs which really tend to sort out the group, so climbing faster and being able to recover quickly to stay with the pack is a key goal. The obvious question is, should I be doing at least a portion of the indoor interval work at 50 rpm? 275W certainly feels a bit different at 50 rpm than at 100 :eek:

I don't really understand the issue here. I never intentionally lower the cadence on the trainer, however, when the going really gets tough my cadence involuntarily slows down; the same as if I were negotiating a steep climb.
Out on the road I used to climb most climbs over 9% say, in the lowest gear (high cadence) to make life easier. Then I came to realise I could get up faster by going up a peg or 2.(lower cadence) In other words I select a gear befitting the perceived power I'm generating irrespective of the cadence. I say perceived because as yet I don't have a power meter, but I don't think I'm too far out.
I think, yet others may correct me here, it's something you have to play with until you get it right. Too low a gear or too high a gear and you adversely affect your climbing speed.
But personally I wouldn't train employing a lower cadence and by the same token I wouldn't feel upset because I couldn't achieve a cadence of 90+.
Since getting the CompTrainer, I've found once I get above 260W a cadence of 85 is natural for me. Probably down to age!🙁 Tyson

Instead of working out on an indoor stationary bike maybe you could go out on the road and work on riding out of the saddle in a higher gear going up hill. I'm not sure if that is an option for you, especially in winter.

I don't really see a problem with increasing the load and reducing the revs. The East Germans and the Russians used to do it all the time, the Aussies too (under Charlie Walsh I think) I'm sure Stuart OGrady loved those hours of 53x12 going uphill in the saddle. Ulrich apparently did that too. Big gears are bad per se - it's just that letting the form get sloppy and trying to do too much too soon tends to lead to problems.

High revs seem to be the holy grail these days - but having legs whirl around like propellers isn't always the best for everyone. It certainly didn't stop the likes of Pantani, Herrera, Millar and Bugno going up hill quick.... 😉

swampy1970 said:

High revs seem to be the holy grail these days - but having legs whirl around like propellers isn't always the best for everyone. It certainly didn't stop the likes of Pantani... going up hill quick.... 😉

Yes, and suffered from severe depression and death by cocaine overdose. Ummm... 🙁

Sillyoldtwit said:

I don't really understand the issue here. I never intentionally lower the cadence on the trainer, however, when the going really gets tough my cadence involuntarily slows down; the same as if I were negotiating a steep climb.
Out on the road I used to climb most climbs over 9% say, in the lowest gear (high cadence) to make life easier. Then I came to realise I could get up faster by going up a peg or 2.(lower cadence) In other words I select a gear befitting the perceived power I'm generating irrespective of the cadence. I say perceived because as yet I don't have a power meter, but I don't think I'm too far out.
I think, yet others may correct me here, it's something you have to play with until you get it right. Too low a gear or too high a gear and you adversely affect your climbing speed.
But personally I wouldn't train employing a lower cadence and by the same token I wouldn't feel upset because I couldn't achieve a cadence of 90+.
Since getting the CompTrainer, I've found once I get above 260W a cadence of 85 is natural for me. Probably down to age!🙁 Tyson

he said he was dipping down to 50rpms.. he didn' say 80rpms. basically if you are doing 50rpms it's because you are over geared... your problem is not that you need to get used to doing 50rpms, your problem is that you need to buy a new cassette with some lower gears in it or compact crank or a triple or something... if you are doing 50rpms you are going up slower than you could...

also to others... i've seen ullrich do around 85rpms which is considered slow... i've never seen him ride with a cadence of 50... just no way around it, if you catch yourself doing 50rpms it's because you don't have, or have chosen the wrong gear for the task at hand and you are going slower than you could.

doctorSpoc said:

he said he was dipping down to 50rpms.. he didn' say 80rpms. basically if you are doing 50rpms it's because you are over geared... your problem is not that you need to get used to doing 50rpms, your problem is that you need to buy a new cassette with some lower gears in it or compact crank or a triple or something...

He also said he was going up a 15% grade in a 30x25 gear. So, what it is you (guys) are (all) suggesting that he do with his gearing?

To get his 50rpm up to 80 he'd need a 30x55 gear combination, which is not one I'm familiar with.

docspoc: Yes, lower gearing is always an option, but it's a trade-off. With the 9 speed triple and 12/25, I'm about as low as it goes on a road set up. Going to an MTB gearing isn't a compromise I'm willing to make. Besides, it's not like I have to get off and walk: standing in 30/25 gets me over the steeps walls when needed.

frenchgyge: Excellent point you've made. In that case, don't doubt that as FTP increases at 90 rpm, it will increase at 50 rpm as well. But you did say "primarily". Suppose the more precise question then becomes: Will I see more specific increase in FTP at 50-60 rpm by doing some portion of training at these low rpm?

sogood: Knees have never really given me a problem, but your point is well-taken. The 50-60 rpm climbing is typically only perhaps 10-20 minutes out of a 3 hour ride, and the rest of the time I do try to keep cadence up. Agree getting the FTP up and the weight down is the way to do it, but to sustain 400-500W (needed to spin at 80-90 rpm) for 10 minutes on a 15% grade, and then recover in the middle of a long ride is a bit beyond even my wildest dreams 🙂

Tyson, the issue is that I want to be able to generate more sustained power for steep climbs (go up faster), but this often requires pedaling at less than optimum cadence. My cadence also slows a lot on 9% grades, but if it's not a short "momentum" hill, I'll normally shift down early and climb in my lowest gear. With the triple, shifting up from 25-23-21 is easy if the grade allows.

swampy: Agree just getting out and climbing more is probably the most specific and best way to train for hill performance. Steep hills are certainly close by, and winter weather is often fine for riding here. But I've been doing more work on the indoor trainer now, and just wondered if it's worth specifically targeting the cadence ranges I use on steep climbs on the trainer.

Appreciate all the replies. The climb just got me thinking that perhaps training at a "normal" cadence all the time isn't the best way. I plan to check out the "hill programs" on the trainer tomorrow and see what kind of power I can sustain at 50-60 rpm for a 10 minute "climb". If I get any revelations, or just blinding flashes of the obvious, will pass them along.

dhk2 said:

frenchgyge: Excellent point you've made. In that case, don't doubt that as FTP increases at 90 rpm, it will increase at 50 rpm as well. But you did say "primarily". Suppose the more precise question then becomes: Will I see more specific increase in FTP at 50-60 rpm by doing some portion of training at these low rpm?

As I interpret your question, I'd say the answer is probably 'yes.' That is, I don't think lower cadence intervals are really the best way to improve your FTP (ie, maximal 1-hr power under ideal conditions), but that they would probably help improve the power you can sustain at 50-60 rpm.🙂 By 'primarily', I mean that the biggest improvements in FTP are going to be through metabolic adaptations, with NM adaptations being much smaller.

Personally, I find that stomping up a steep hill in the saddle works the lower back, hips and glutes more than typical trainer riding (or riding on the flats). I think that some force-cadence-position specific intervals of that type would give some added benefit if that was a key factor in your rides.

dhk2 said:

docspoc: Yes, lower gearing is always an option, but it's a trade-off. With the 9 speed triple and 12/25, I'm about as low as it goes on a road set up. Going to an MTB gearing isn't a compromise I'm willing to make. Besides, it's not like I have to get off and walk: standing in 30/25 gets me over the steeps walls when needed.

yup, point taken... i'm guilty of not reading the post carefully and missed the actual gearing you were using.

but if i was your coach i would tell you that in the very sort term doing some of these intervals may help you a little on these climbs.. i might even limit them to 5min intervals... i find that climbs under 10min improving anCap can be mitigating a bit so so doing some of that might be advantageous... but longer than about 10mins and your low FTP gets exposed. but in the long run (even the medium run) the way to get up those hill faster and in a reasonable gear is to increase your FTP and lose weight and doing these hill workouts (i know group rides are fun but...) and doing the the 50rpm workouts on the trainer inside is more than likely not that good workouts for your FTP development at this stage in your development.. your time would be much better spent working on plain old vanilla SST and Th training... i know it's boring but...

frenchyge said:

He also said he was going up a 15% grade in a 30x25 gear. So, what it is you (guys) are (all) suggesting that he do with his gearing?

Obviously the 80 cadence number is somewhat arbitrary. The key issue is to get that cadence further up than 50. On regular road bikes, it's not difficult to source a standard commercial cassette that has a 29 cog. At that lowly cadence of 50, every bit helps.

How long are these 15% to 20% climbs? If they are less than 3 to 5 min then you can afford to "brute force" them in bigger gear.

This means you will not be climbing these at your FTP power output but at 120% of your FTP and on moments even higher 150% FTP (just don't blow up).

Going harder like this means the climb ends sooner too since you are going up faster.

If the climbs are long then you need even lower gearing I'm affraid that allows you to stay in your FTP or lower range.

And if that is not possible then you need to avoid those hills 🙂.

root said:

How long are these 15% to 20% climbs? If they are less than 3 to 5 min then you can afford to "brute force" them in bigger gear.

This means you will not be climbing these at your FTP power output but at 120% of your FTP and on moments even higher 150% FTP (just don't blow up).

Going harder like this means the climb ends sooner too since you are going up faster.

If the climbs are long then you need even lower gearing I'm affraid that allows you to stay in your FTP or lower range.

And if that is not possible then you need to avoid those hills 🙂.

yup.. how long... distance and how long does it typically take you to go up them? if it's shorter than about 5min then working on AnCap can help... and FTP is less important... still important, but less limiting. FTP is still the most important factor you can work on... FTP needs to be as high as you can possibly make it.

dhk2 said:

Like others here, I've been inspired by Tyson to work harder on FTP via indoor training on the stationary bikes at the local YMCA. Normally I pedal a cadence in the range of 92-95, with some quick accelerations up to 140-150.
However, on a steep climb out on the road with a group this weekend, it occurred to me that for climbing here "high" power is needed at much lower cadence.

EG, on the 15% grade yesterday, was climbing at 4.5-5 mph seated, which I believe requires around 275-300W output for a 200 lb rider+bike. (The hard effort felt about like 275W does on the trainer as well). At this speed, in my (wimpy) 30/25 low gear, cadence is about 50 rpm, well short of the 90-95 that I use for almost all the interval durations.

Many of the club rides here feature 10-20% climbs which really tend to sort out the group, so climbing faster and being able to recover quickly to stay with the pack is a key goal. The obvious question is, should I be doing at least a portion of the indoor interval work at 50 rpm? 275W certainly feels a bit different at 50 rpm than at 100 :eek:

Yes, it does!

How long are the climbs you are doing? That might help inform whether the gearing is too high.

For an effort of 5 minutes or so, I would say 50 rpm could be good force work or an opportunity to punch it for a VO2max interval. Anything above 15 minutes should be more in the threshold watts range at a doable cadence.

For instance, I was out of shape when I did the Pantani Granfondo last year where the two big climbs are the Gavia and the Mortirolo. I can say that the middle 6km of the Mortirolo that come in at an average of 14% are no picnic, especially when it's hot and you have a few climbs in your legs already. Many hacks like me were walking or falling over due to improper gearing. I just plugged away in a 34x29 at about 50 rpm (and occassionally lower) for the better part of an hour -- its 12.4km @ 10.5% average!

Don't avoid hills, but perhaps lay off the steepest hills and do ones where you can maintain a more reasonable cadence. I am sticking to 5, 8, 15km climbs that average from 6-8% rather than doing 5-7km climbs that average from 10-12%

On the trainer, why not train for optimum cadence --

On the question of what cadence is best, here is one coach's view

http://53x12.com/do/show?page=article&id=27

Duration of "steep climbs" around here would normally be from 3-5 minutes at 4-6 mph. What I call "steep climbs" are those where desired cadence of 80 rpm can't be maintained despite being in bottom 30/25 gear. Longer climbs are usually more like 6-8%, but they don't present the same problem since I can keep the cadence up. Of course, long climbs often include some steep sections.

Appreciate all the input. The concensus as I read it seems to be to continue to work on FTP at optimum cadences primarily; that will be the main route to faster climbing and overall time reduction on hilly century events. Also could include some high load/low cadence trainer intervals for maybe 3-5 min duration, or more real hill climbing for short-duration power, but that shouldn't be the main focus.

watoni: We've got essentially the same bottom gear ratio, and it sounds like we're climbing at similar speeds. The reason I'm focusing on hills this spring is that I'm going to Italy in April when I'll be riding the hilly routes around Riccione for a week. Won't be riding the "Nove Colli" or anything crazy, but I don't want to be embarassed on the climbs, or get back too late to enjoy the afternoon pasta buffets 🙂

dhk2 said:

Duration of "steep climbs" around here would normally be from 3-5 minutes at 4-6 mph.

hills of this length are what some call sprinter's hills.. i.e. short enought that sprinters can get up them fast. Improving your anarobic capacity can help for hills of this length...

you are right though... work SST and Th as much as possible.. in the winter almost all my training consists of SST/Th training. this is going to be the bedrock apon which everything else is built. then ~3 weeks before your important event you can start working in some AnCap intervals 3-5min @ about 1.2xFTP with 2-3min recovery. can start out with sets of 3 and then as you get better work up to 2 sets of 3... and again you don't need to be doing them at 50rpms, do them at a comfortable rpm. doing them on your group ride is an option, but i have found that the best way to do them is to do them alone on a hill or otherwise (trainer or flats... with hands on tops and sit upright as you would on the hill) under very controlled conditions/intensities and recovery... in the group you can't always control the amount of recovery and intensity so doing them as part of a group ride is not allways as effective as doing them alone... i wouldn't recommend you doing these workouts more than once a week.. not because you can't do them but mostly because doing these takes time and energy away from doing your longer (10-20min interval) Th work.

doctorSpoc said:

hills of this length are what some call sprinter's hills.. i.e. short enought that sprinters can get up them fast. Improving your anarobic capacity can help for hills of this length...

you are right though... work SST and Th as much as possible.. in the winter almost all my training consists of SST/Th training. this is going to be the bedrock apon which everything else is built. then ~3 weeks before your important event you can start working in some AnCap intervals 3-5min @ about 1.2xFTP with 2-3min recovery. can start out with sets of 3 and then as you get better work up to 2 sets of 3... and again you don't need to be doing them at 50rpms, do them at a comfortable rpm. doing them on your group ride is an option, but i have found that the best way to do them is to do them alone on a hill or otherwise (trainer or flats... with hands on tops and sit upright as you would on the hill) under very controlled conditions/intensities and recovery... in the group you can't always control the amount of recovery and intensity so doing them as part of a group ride is not allways as effective as doing them alone... i wouldn't recommend you doing these workouts more than once a week.. not because you can't do them but mostly because doing these takes time and energy away from doing your longer (10-20min interval) Th work.

Before seeing your reply, tried a 5 min interval today on the gym trainer at 50-60 rpm and ~ 120-150% of FTP. Did this after 30 minutes of usual SST interval at normal cadence. The effort didn't feel as tough on the legs as I had expected, but it was only 5 minutes. HR went from bottom of L4 to the top during the effort; was working pretty hard. If nothing else, I'm no longer afraid of load setting #15 🙂

As a quick summary, I got "More short-term power is key for the sprinter hills, and don't worry about the (low) cadence issue." Hope that's right, and appreciate your recommendations.