Increasing 3+ Hour Power

There are a lot of factors involved here, one would be: what are you doing about nutrition during your longer rides? Another would be: Are you staying in an endurance zone with respect to your effort or are you working too hard? (are you wearing a heart rate monitor so you have an idea?) Are you getting ample rest between harder efforts, I know guys that think since they can't squeeze in as many miles they think that they have to kill themselves every ride. They never recover enough with lower effort rides between the hard efforts. One guy I know rides a killer hill route endlessly and wonders why he doesn't seem to increase his endurance as much as he'd like. Don't worry too much about the mileage because that's really dependant on the terrain, weather etc...Try and focus more on the time and effort. Try to ride at maybe 85-100 cadence with your heart rate about 70 to 80% of max. Find a good liquid nutrition formula, supplement with a few gels maybe. There is not going to be a substitute for good endurance training, but good nutrition and making sure you stay in your endurance zone will help. But alas, more mileage with adequate rest is still the cure.

Lonnie Utah said:

Today I did a pretty long ride (72 miles). I'm sure most of the regulars here kinda know my deal. 9-5 Job, I try to ride about 75-100 miles a week. A majority of these ride are 60-90 mins. I've recently been trying to do longer rides, 35-50 miles. As I'm sure as all of you can relate to, sometimes life gets in the way of riding. I can usually do 50 miles in about 2.5-2.75 hours. Today, I was really good for about the first 2.5-3 hours, but then just couldn't prodce the output I wanted.

So my question is, what can I do or how can I increase my output at the longer distances without just going out and riding these distances? I'd love to be able to ride 3-4 + hours a day, but it just isn't fesable at this point in my life...

I'm just curious.

L

I haven't tested this, but maybe Andy Coggan's Training Stress Score (TSS) algorithm could be used here to derive an average intensity (power) for your longer rides that would be comparable in stress to your shorter rides. The TSS formula is duration * power * power as % of "base" power ^ 3.9. So, if your 2.5-2.75 hour rides are at an average power of, say, 200w then your TSS for those rides is 150 * 200 * (1^3.9) = 30,000. For a ride of, say, 3.5 hours at an equivalent TSS, you would have to reduce your average power to 187w (210 * 187 * (187/200)^3.9 = 30,215). Now, a 13w decrease in average power may not seem like much, but I think it is significant over the course of 3.5 hours. It seems that what you are trying to do now is to ride at the same power as your shorter rides. Yes, you can do that but the TSS is going to be significantly higher (e.g., 42,000). That's about 40% higher and, I think, a non-trivial increase in difficulty and not one that can be solved with food and nutrition alone.

RapDaddyo said:

I haven't tested this, but maybe Andy Coggan's Training Stress Score (TSS) algorithm could be used here to derive an average intensity (power) for your longer rides that would be comparable in stress to your shorter rides. The TSS formula is duration * power * power as % of "base" power ^ 3.9. So, if your 2.5-2.75 hour rides are at an average power of, say, 200w then your TSS for those rides is 150 * 200 * (1^3.9) = 30,000.

I think there's some confusion here about how TSS is derived. Typical TSS values are supposed to fall around 150 - 450. Here's Andy's description of IF and TSS on the CyclingPeaks site:

http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/defined.html

Berend

squidwranglr said:

I think there's some confusion here about how TSS is derived. Typical TSS values are supposed to fall around 150 - 450.

Not really. I'm only interested here in the relative stress of two rides of different durations and powers. The duration * power * IF factor should produce that relationship. It's irrelevant whether it's 30 to 42 or 30,000 to 42,000. The issue is the relationship of one to the other and not the absolute value. Basically, I'm just exploiting the 4th power function in the raw TSS score.
peakscoachinggroup.comPowerTrainingChapter.pdfOpen ↗

Two things work for me Lonnie. First I had to crank up the intensity of my basic workouts. Once I had given my body the time to adapt to the benefits of these workouts, I found that I also had to work on my nutrition for the longer rides. Once I got that dialed in, I found that I could push more power into hours 3, 4 and 5. I did a century on Sunday and for the first time finished stronger than when I started.

Thinking of this after I posted last night, the easiest soulution would be not to do all these efforts solo. Sharing the work might be the easiest way to increase energy at 3,4,5+ hours. 😉

Thanks for all the ideas so far. Keep 'em coming....

Lonnie Utah said:

Thinking of this after I posted last night, the easiest soulution would be not to do all these efforts solo. Sharing the work might be the easiest way to increase energy at 3,4,5+ hours. 😉

Thanks for all the ideas so far. Keep 'em coming....

Well, yes, because riding with a group has the effect of reducing average power, which reduces the TSS score for a given duration. The bottom line is that your training to date has produced a limited size gas tank. You can use the gas in the tank to ride shorter and faster or longer and slower, but you'll run out of gas if you ride longer and faster.

[b]"Today, I was really good for about the first 2.5-3 hours, but then just couldn't prodce the output I wanted. "[/b]

Rule62's got the right ideas:

[b]"First I had to crank up the intensity of my basic workouts. Once I had given my body the time to adapt to the benefits of these workouts, I found that I also had to work on my nutrition for the longer rides."[/b]

Nurition is vitally important. Your body can only store about 2000 Calorie in glycogen in the muscles and floating around in the bloodstream (around 2500Cal if you do depletion and carbo-loading). This corresponds to roughly 2.5-3.0 hours at the kinds of pace you're riding. You need to EAT, and LOTS to prevent your body from completely running down its stores. Once you bonk, your body has to depend 100% on burning fat and protein which is a very slow conversion process and made even slower with lack of carbs.... you hit a wall and can't go over 10-15mph. It's not painful, just kinda blah and weak.

Next is the intensity. A slight allusion is made with TSS formula. You want to do the endurance rides at a certain percentage of your maximum-output. One way to boost your endurance is to raise your maximum-strength, that way your 2.5-hour/50mile ride can be done at 60% of your max, instead of 80%. This lower-percentage effort will allow you to go 4-5 hours at that pace. How to raise your max? Weight-training, sprints and intervals. Take one day off a week, typically tuesdays or wednesday and do a much shorter ride, only 30-45 minutes. Take 20-25 minutes to warm up, then do 5 full-effort 100% sprints (about 45s-60sec) with full recovery in between... then go home.. that's it! Add one day a week in the gym working on isometric exercises.

After just one macrocycle (1-month) of this, you'd be amazed at how much faster and easier your endurance rides becomes. At the same pace as before, you'd feel much more relaxed and comfortable, because you're now only at 60% of your maximum muscle-strength instead of at the edge around 80%. Muscles operating at lower efforts are also more efficient and you'll get more mileage out of your energy stores as well.

[quote="DannoXYZ"][b][i]Next is the intensity. A slight allusion is made with TSS formula. You want to do the endurance rides at a certain percentage of your maximum-output. One way to boost your endurance is to raise your maximum-strength, that way your 2.5-hour/50mile ride can be done at 60% of your max, instead of 80%. This lower-percentage effort will allow you to go 4-5 hours at that pace. How to raise your max? Weight-training, sprints and intervals. Take one day off a week, typically tuesdays or wednesday and do a much shorter ride, only 30-45 minutes. Take 20-25 minutes to warm up, then do 5 full-effort 100% sprints (about 45s-60sec) with full recovery in between... then go home.. that's it! Add one day a week in the gym working on isometric exercises. [/QUOTE]

This is discussed in depth in other threads and should not lead to this thread being sidetracked, but strength is not correlated with endurance. There is no evidence that weight training and isometric exercises will improve cycling performance.

An even effort over 2-3 hours is correlated with LT, which can be raised by training at powers ranging from just below LT to maximal steady state efforts ~15 minutes.

There is also some evidence that short (~30 second) sprints with concomitant short rest periods (~2 minutes) and even work rest/intervals of ~5 minutes at VO2max power can improve TT power, which may translate also into benefits over 2-3 hours.

[b]"but strength is not correlated with endurance. There is no evidence that weight training and isometric exercises will improve cycling performance."[/b]

That's old data, try some more recent studies in the past 10-years. All those studies using 6-8 reps is fine for a bodybuilder, but not for a cycling. It's not so much a matter of black & white, all-or-nothing, yes/no qualitative blanket statements, but it's a matter of HOW you do weight-training. The critical factor here is that when during strength training, you must have a measurable increase in strength, and you must not build bulk. If all you do are some intervals or hop up and down chairs without measuring the actual strength of the muscles, yeah, you won't see any benefits in endurance. In the winter months when I'm off the bike more, I go to the gym 3x a week and work on strength workouts (free Gold's sponsorship gotta be put so some use, eh?).

In Dec. -> Jan. '94, I see the following measured improvements:

- leg-press 300 -> 650 lbs
- leg-lifts 150 -> 250 lbs
- reverse leg-lifts 90 -> 175 lbs
- calf-lifts 175 -> 325 lbs
- squats 375 -> 550 lbs

All this WITHOUT gaining ANY weight at all, the trick is to balance the reps and sets in the mid-range so as to not build too much bulk, yet still make a significant improvement in strength. This lets me lower my centuries from 5 hours at the end of the season in Oct. (well, I'm pretty worn out by then) to 4.5 hours in early Feb. I can also do double-centuries in around 10.5 hours too, something I wouldn't even bother attempting at the end of the season because I know I'll call the 800-number to come pick me up around the 150-mile mark.

Just because you're not aware of something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist (aside from UFOs).

Aphrodite - Strength Training Improves Aerobic Power In Seniors
Edmund R. Burke, Ph.D (USA coach) - Strength Training for Cycling
NSCA - Resistance Training for Cyclists
Ultra Cycling - Resistance Training for Endurance Cyclists
SpokePost - Training with Periodization (Part 3 of 8: Hypertrophy Phase)
PTS - Strength Training: Building a Bigger Engine
RunnersWeb - Multisport: Strength and Power Training for Endurance Athletes
Journal Of Applied Physiology - Explosive-strength training improves 5-km running time by improving running economy and muscle power
Trinity Endurance/Fitness - Cross Training for Triathletes - Part 1
Power Running - Resistance Training for Runners

Marcinik - Effects of strength training on lactate threshold and endurance performance (Med. Sci Sports Exerc. 23: 739-743.)

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Also we have to be specific with the suggestions that pertains to each particular case. In Lonnie's question, we should get some clarification as to what happens at the 3-hour mark:

1. Does the legs get increasingly more fatigued and sore? If so, strength training would DEFINITELY help. If they're just tired, strength training will have them go longer before getting to the same level of fatigue.

2. Or, does the body just shut down, you feel cold, soft, unmotivated and just kind of blah in geenral? Not in much pain, just sluggish. And if you're looking around on the ground for things to eat, this is a sure sign of a bonk, you need to eat more.

But again, strength training improves the percentage of your VO2-max that you're operating in. If you're running at 70% before, after strength training, you'll be at 60%. The significance here is a glycogen-sparing effect where you burn more fat for the same power-output. This extends the point where you bonk assuming same calorie intake as before.

Then again, regardless of what you "believe", like there are purple polka-dotted aliens on the far side of the moon, it doesn't change the "results". ALL of the top athlete and coaches, the ones who are winning races, the guys Carmichael's training, do weight-training in the winter. As the season goes on, your muscular strengths gets goes down and down, and the higher your strength is at the start of the season, you'll be stronger throughout. A correlary with strength-to-endurance again, except over a longer period than just a single ride.

[quote="DannoXYZ"][b][u]But again, strength training improves the percentage of your VO2-max that you're operating in. If you're running at 70% before, after strength training, you'll be at 60%. The significance here is a glycogen-sparing effect where you burn more fat for the same power-output. This extends the point where you bonk assuming same calorie intake as before.[/quote]

You're not saying strength training increases VO2max are you? In which case I assume you are claiming strength training improves efficiency. In cycling, efficiency is highly correlated with slow twitch muscle density and recruitment patterns. These things would likely be negatively affected if affected at all by weight training. Do you have any data to support your claims?

Quoted post said:

Then again, regardless of what you "believe", like there are purple polka-dotted aliens on the far side of the moon, it doesn't change the "results". ALL of the top athlete and coaches, the ones who are winning races, the guys Carmichael's training, do weight-training in the winter. As the season goes on, your muscular strengths gets goes down and down, and the higher your strength is at the start of the season, you'll be stronger throughout. A correlary with strength-to-endurance again, except over a longer period than just a single ride.

[quote="DannoXYZ"][b]"but strength is not correlated with endurance. There is no evidence that weight training and isometric exercises will improve cycling performance."[/b][/QUOTE]

Sorry. Let me clarify. My comments are cycling specific. There is some evidence weight training improves running performance. Cycling does have a strength requirement but it is very low and can be met by most people, with the exception of the elderly and some women. These groups may see some improvement with strength training. Untrained people will see an increase in performance across almost all modalities after undergoing any exercise program (including weight training). Elites and other well trained cyclists will not see such improvements.

No, I'm saying that your VO2-max will not improve with strength-training, but you will be able to operate at a lower percentage of your VO2-max for the same power-output. Thus you will operate in a more aerobic region and burn a higher fat percentage.

As for data on the studies, read those links I have you, they either provide the data or reference the journals in their bibliographies. Also the stuff you quote about runners or elderly are a small minority of the studies, I referenced mainly cycling studies above.

Again there's no magic bullet here, you have to customize a training program for each individual. The strength-training is something I do for just 2-months out of the year. For me personally, I'm not really limited by strength at all, but rather by aerobic capacity, so I spend a lot more time working on hills. But for those whose legs get sore and cramp up after a 30-40 mile ride, or they can't even complete a century at 65-70% without being wiped out, then they may benefit from 3-months of strength training in the winter.

DannoXYZ said:

No, I'm saying that your VO2-max will not improve with strength-training, but you will be able to operate at a lower percentage of your VO2-max for the same power-output. Thus you will operate in a more aerobic region and burn a higher fat percentage.

This is called efficiency. I've never, ever, seen any evidence that this improves in well trained athletes with weight training, nor have you provided any.

Quoted post said:

As for data on the studies, read those links I have you, they either provide the data or reference the journals in their bibliographies. Also the stuff you quote about runners or elderly are a small minority of the studies, I referenced mainly cycling studies above.

I looked at the links you provided. If you remove the ones concerned with running or the elderly, it is a much sparser list. Even then, there is nothing from a peer reviewed journal, not even a proper literature review. The quality of the data is low, low, low.

Quoted post said:

Again there's no magic bullet here, you have to customize a training program for each individual. The strength-training is something I do for just 2-months out of the year. For me personally, I'm not really limited by strength at all, but rather by aerobic capacity, so I spend a lot more time working on hills. But for those whose legs get sore and cramp up after a 30-40 mile ride, or they can't even complete a century at 65-70% without being wiped out, then they may benefit from 3-months of strength training in the winter.

This argument is not worth having here. There is another thread on this.

DannoXYZ said:

That's old data, try some more recent studies in the past 10-years. All those studies using 6-8 reps is fine for a bodybuilder, but not for a cycling. It's not so much a matter of black & white, all-or-nothing, yes/no qualitative blanket statements, but it's a matter of HOW you do weight-training. The critical factor here is that when during strength training, you must have a measurable increase in strength, and you must not build bulk. If all you do are some intervals or hop up and down chairs without measuring the actual strength of the muscles, yeah, you won't see any benefits in endurance. In the winter months when I'm off the bike more, I go to the gym 3x a week and work on strength workouts (free Gold's sponsorship gotta be put so some use, eh?).

As Roadie Scum has stated there is unlikely to be any positive benefit to endurance cycling performance with weight training, as has been discussed on the board ad infinitum.

If you increase your strength and you do "not build bulk" then the increases in strength are due entirely to increases in neuromuscular adaptations. This is the classic, early response to weight training that occurs in all people who begin weights (and other exercises). These adaptations are specific to the joint angle and velocity at which they are trained, and do not transfer to other joint angles and velocities as would occur in cycling.

for weight training adaptations to crossover to cycling you *would* need to increase your "bulk" (increases in muscle cross sectional area). This would have the effect of increasing peak (sprint) power and is the reason why track sprinters are 'bulky'. However, apart from untrained and in low-fitness cyclists there would be no positive gain to aerobic power in trained cyclists (i.e., those who race or have the potential to race).

Of course, the increased 'bulk' would have a deliterious effect on ECP in two ways 1) more mass to drag uphill with no increased aerobic power to offset the gain in mass, 2) decrease in mitochondrial and capillary density resulting in decrease in O2 delivery.

There is no data to show an increase in ECP with trained cyclists.

ric

Quoted post said:

In Dec. -> Jan. '94, I see the following measured improvements:

- leg-press 300 -> 650 lbs
- leg-lifts 150 -> 250 lbs
- reverse leg-lifts 90 -> 175 lbs
- calf-lifts 175 -> 325 lbs
- squats 375 -> 550 lbs

All this WITHOUT gaining ANY weight at all,

These are the classic neuromuscular adaptations i mentioned earlier

Quoted post said:

Strength Training Improves Aerobic Power In Seniors
Edmund R. Burke, Ph.D (USA coach) - Strength Training for Cycling
NSCA - Resistance Training for Cyclists
Ultra Cycling - Resistance Training for Endurance Cyclists
SpokePost - Training with Periodization (Part 3 of 8: Hypertrophy Phase)
PTS - Strength Training: Building a Bigger Engine
RunnersWeb - Multisport: Strength and Power Training for Endurance Athletes
Journal Of Applied Physiology - Explosive-strength training improves 5-km running time by improving running economy and muscle power
Trinity Endurance/Fitness - Cross Training for Triathletes - Part 1
Power Running - Resistance Training for Runners

Marcinik - Effects of strength training on lactate threshold and endurance performance (Med. Sci Sports Exerc. 23: 739-743.)

these articles above either cite studies using untrained or low fitness people, profer incorrect suggestions (e.g., weights allow you to generate more force at the pedal during aerobic cycling - which is incorrect as any healthy mass matched individual can generate the same force as the best cyclists), or talk about running (which can be improved with weights)

Quoted post said:

1. Does the legs get increasingly more fatigued and sore? If so, strength training would DEFINITELY help. If they're just tired, strength training will have them go longer before getting to the same level of fatigue.

can you explain how?

Quoted post said:

But again, strength training improves the percentage of your VO2-max that you're operating in. If you're running at 70% before, after strength training, you'll be at 60%. The significance here is a glycogen-sparing effect where you burn more fat for the same power-output. This extends the point where you bonk assuming same calorie intake as before.

how would strength training increase efficiency, which is related to type 1 fibres and years spent cycling?

Quoted post said:

Then again, regardless of what you "believe", like there are purple polka-dotted aliens on the far side of the moon, it doesn't change the "results". ALL of the top athlete and coaches, the ones who are winning races, the guys Carmichael's training, do weight-training in the winter. As the season goes on, your muscular strengths gets goes down and down, and the higher your strength is at the start of the season, you'll be stronger throughout. A correlary with strength-to-endurance again, except over a longer period than just a single ride.

the forces involved in cycling are so low anyway it doesn't matter how much strength you have.

ric