In the News: Armstrong took EPO reports paper



Tom Kunich wrote:
> <Montesquiou> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > ...testosterone, growth hormones and cortisone also is THE standard ?
> >
> > Indeed, if EPO is THE standard prescription drug for people taking
> > Chem-therapy, WHY DID THE DOCTOR ASKED ?
>
> Are you under the impression that drugs taken previous to '96 effected his
> performance in '99?
>
> Do you believe that a man who underwent serious cancer treatements would use
> drugs that have been implicated in the past as causing cancer?
>
> That Lance used drugs before his cancer wouldn't surprise me in the least.
> That he used them after would.

This leak seems worse than the others. Frankie and his wife have
nothing to gain and everything to lose with this testimony. Frankie
just started a cycling team--I'm sure it's not good to have Lance and
US cycling ****** off at you. Plus, there's guilt by association for
Frankie. Maybe Lance should have just let the $5 million bonus slip on
by. That's a lot of money to most people, but not to Lance. It's
beginning to look like Martha Stewart's error of greed and hubris.
 
On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 16:01:29 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Do you believe that a man who underwent serious cancer treatements would use
>drugs that have been implicated in the past as causing cancer?


Reality check here. I've waited in my car for my wife to get off work
and watched patients walk by with a cigarette in one hand and the
rolling drip in the other, because they don't permit smoking in the
oncology center. People do the damnedest things.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
 
Curtis L. Russell wrote:
> On 23 Jun 2006 05:36:28 -0700, "mtb Dad" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>"According to former friends of the American cyclist, Armstrong, who
>>suffered
>
>>from testicular cancer in 1996, allegedly told a doctor at Indiana
>
>>University
>>Hospital in October of that year after undergoing brain surgery that he
>>had
>>previously taken the banned substances EPO, testosterone, growth
>>hormones and
>>cortisone. "
>
>
>
> I don't see the issues you do. Unless the brain surgery was the first
> step-unlikely [...]

ISTR from reading his book that the brain surgery *was* the first step.

Mark
 
On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 12:33:16 -0700, Mark
<[email protected]> wrote:

>ISTR from reading his book that the brain surgery *was* the first step.
>
>Mark

I've checked since the last post. He had one cycle of chemo before the
brain surgery and then most of the chemo afterwards. Since EPO is not
really part of the chemo, but part of the restoration of damage from
chemo, it is possible, or maybe probable, that there would not be any
EPO use before the surgery.

My wife isn't answering the cell phone, so my line to actual knowledge
is cut right now...

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
 
Curtis L. Russell wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 12:33:16 -0700, Mark
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >ISTR from reading his book that the brain surgery *was* the first step.
> >
> >Mark
>
> I've checked since the last post. He had one cycle of chemo before the
> brain surgery and then most of the chemo afterwards. Since EPO is not
> really part of the chemo, but part of the restoration of damage from
> chemo, it is possible, or maybe probable, that there would not be any
> EPO use before the surgery.
>
> My wife isn't answering the cell phone, so my line to actual knowledge
> is cut right now...
>
> Curtis L. Russell
> Odenton, MD (USA)
> Just someone on two wheels...

The problem here, like all the other situations, is that someone
committed perjury. We have the Andreus saying it happened under oath,
and others saying it didn't.
Is this more of the personal vendetta, or the truth? I don't know, and
neither does anyone but the people directly involved.
My problem is that people like that great American Sen. Joseph
McCarthy wrecked a shitload of peoples lives by trumpeting tons of
charges with little to no solid proof. Seems to be a lot of
accusations, innuendo, smears, etc...with very little concrete evidence
being confirmed.
This, as so many have pointed out, is a PR war and objectivity,
honesty, and justice don't figure in any of it.
I don't know if he doped or not, but you don't make accusations that
can wreck someones life without concrete proof, at least I don't, but I
seem to have a set of working ethics that are out of step with the rest
of the planet.
Bill C
 
Armstrong made a rebuttal statement today. The most interesting tidbit:

"We have instituted proceedings to determine who did so" (leak selected
statements to the media) "; ironically, but predictably, our
investigation to date has revealed that the only person to whom
documents have been provided by any trial participant is Richard Pound
of WADA.

I'm curious to know why a participant in this trial would hand any of
its documents over to **** Pound. It'd be interesting to see Pounds
response now. Lance is going just short of asking him to step outside.

Bill C wrote:
> Curtis L. Russell wrote:
> > On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 12:33:16 -0700, Mark
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >ISTR from reading his book that the brain surgery *was* the first step.
> > >
> > >Mark
> >
> > I've checked since the last post. He had one cycle of chemo before the
> > brain surgery and then most of the chemo afterwards. Since EPO is not
> > really part of the chemo, but part of the restoration of damage from
> > chemo, it is possible, or maybe probable, that there would not be any
> > EPO use before the surgery.
> >
> > My wife isn't answering the cell phone, so my line to actual knowledge
> > is cut right now...
> >
> > Curtis L. Russell
> > Odenton, MD (USA)
> > Just someone on two wheels...
>
> The problem here, like all the other situations, is that someone
> committed perjury. We have the Andreus saying it happened under oath,
> and others saying it didn't.
> Is this more of the personal vendetta, or the truth? I don't know, and
> neither does anyone but the people directly involved.
> My problem is that people like that great American Sen. Joseph
> McCarthy wrecked a shitload of peoples lives by trumpeting tons of
> charges with little to no solid proof. Seems to be a lot of
> accusations, innuendo, smears, etc...with very little concrete evidence
> being confirmed.
> This, as so many have pointed out, is a PR war and objectivity,
> honesty, and justice don't figure in any of it.
> I don't know if he doped or not, but you don't make accusations that
> can wreck someones life without concrete proof, at least I don't, but I
> seem to have a set of working ethics that are out of step with the rest
> of the planet.
> Bill C
 
Curtis L. Russell wrote:
> My wife isn't answering the cell phone, so my line to actual knowledge
> is cut right now...

Perhaps you should try dialling from a number she doesn't recognise as
yours.
 
In article
<[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> Tom Kunich wrote:
> > <Montesquiou> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > ...testosterone, growth hormones and cortisone also is THE standard ?
> > >
> > > Indeed, if EPO is THE standard prescription drug for people taking
> > > Chem-therapy, WHY DID THE DOCTOR ASKED ?
> >
> > Are you under the impression that drugs taken previous to '96 effected his
> > performance in '99?
> >
> > Do you believe that a man who underwent serious cancer treatements would use
> > drugs that have been implicated in the past as causing cancer?
> >
> > That Lance used drugs before his cancer wouldn't surprise me in the least.
> > That he used them after would.
>
> This leak seems worse than the others. Frankie and his wife have
> nothing to gain and everything to lose with this testimony. Frankie
> just started a cycling team--I'm sure it's not good to have Lance and
> US cycling ****** off at you. Plus, there's guilt by association for
> Frankie. Maybe Lance should have just let the $5 million bonus slip on
> by. That's a lot of money to most people, but not to Lance. It's
> beginning to look like Martha Stewart's error of greed and hubris.

Of course he does not _need_ the money. Money is how they
keep score. Armstrong got the $5 million _plus_ $2.5
million penalty, making him the big winner this round.

The war's not over? 7 TdF victories, and crushing
victories over Greg Anderson and the insurance company so
far.

Next battle:
> I respected the panel's unconditional prohibition against providing any
> documents or testimony to others, and made no mention of this complete
> victory. Others did not, as selected items have apparently been recently
> released to the press. We have instituted proceedings to determine who did
> so; ironically, but predictably, our investigation to date has revealed that
> the only person to whom documents have been provided by any trial participant
> is Richard Pound of WADA.

--
Michael Press
 
"Curtis L. Russell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 16:01:29 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>Do you believe that a man who underwent serious cancer treatements would
>>use
>>drugs that have been implicated in the past as causing cancer?
>
>
> Reality check here. I've waited in my car for my wife to get off work
> and watched patients walk by with a cigarette in one hand and the
> rolling drip in the other, because they don't permit smoking in the
> oncology center. People do the damnedest things.

Addictions aren't the same thing and you know that full well. Lance was
faced with death and won. Do you suppose he would roll the dice again?

In my opinion he trained, then he trained some more and then he trained some
more. I'm sure that he cut corners here and there. Perhaps he blood packed
to maintain his hematocrit at or near the limit which as we've seen from
report WAS NOT at the limits nor in many cases not even near it.

I worked on blood typing machines several times so I know something about
blood typing and have read perhaps 1/3rd of Willams Hematology in
consequence of my work.

But I don't know what the normal variations in hematocrit in individuals are
though and I don't know if the numbers I've seen reflect normal variations
or not. I will say this - I've seen comments from people who claim to have
never taken anything that would effect their hematocrit claiming variations
from 36% to 49% for themselves without ANY excessive exercise or any
illnesses involved.
 
"Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> My problem is that people like that great American Sen. Joseph
> McCarthy wrecked a shitload of peoples lives by trumpeting tons of
> charges with little to no solid proof.

Unfortunately no one seems to be interested in the fact that McCarthy was
being fed his information by the CIA who then cut his channels after
pressure from the White House and Congressmen who might have been involved
in stupidity if not outright criminal activity themselves.

The records from the old Soviet Union pretty much backed up everything
McCarthy said.

And let us be QUITE explicit that McCarthy held HEARINGS ONLY.

Where's that old desire for openness that seems so prevalent when Bush might
be injured by it?
 
in message <[email protected]>, <Montesquiou> ('')
wrote:

>>
>> Well, Epo is THE standard prescription drug for people taking
>> Chem-therapy. So that he has taken Epo when he was treated for cancer
>> is no surprise.
>
> ...testosterone, growth hormones and cortisone also is THE standard ?

Testosterone (hormone replacement therapy) is certainly normal for anyone
who has, errr, dropped a goolie, as they say. And EPO is certainly
normal in counteracting the side effects of strong chemotherapy for
cancer. You would only be prescribed EPO /while/ undergoing
chemotherapy, but you'd be quite likely to be - perfectly legitimately -
prescribed the testosterone for life, or at least into your 60s.

Men with reduced levels of testosterone (for example, men who have had a
testicle removed and who are not receiving HRT) typically have sharply
reduced levels of aggression and competitiveness. In other words, they
are not Headstrong. However, if prescribed just ever so slightly more
than a replacement dose... these things are so hard to calculate
exactly, after all...

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Semper in faecibus sumus, sole profundum variat.
 
in message <[email protected]>, Curtis L.
Russell ('[email protected]') wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 16:01:29 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>Do you believe that a man who underwent serious cancer treatements
>>would use drugs that have been implicated in the past as causing
>>cancer?
>
> Reality check here. I've waited in my car for my wife to get off work
> and watched patients walk by with a cigarette in one hand and the
> rolling drip in the other, because they don't permit smoking in the
> oncology center. People do the damnedest things.

Yup. I helped my little sister downstairs so she could go outside the
hospital to smoke, just three days before she died, because they
wouldn't let he smoke in the hospice ward. She was inoperable; there
wasn't any point in making her last few days any more miserable.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; It's dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
;; Voltaire RIP Dr David Kelly 1945-2004
 
Donald Munro wrote:
> Curtis L. Russell wrote:
> > My wife isn't answering the cell phone, so my line to actual knowledge
> > is cut right now...
>
> Perhaps you should try dialling from a number she doesn't recognise as
> yours.

POTM
 
"Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected]...
| "Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
| news:[email protected]...
| >
| > My problem is that people like that great American Sen. Joseph
| > McCarthy wrecked a shitload of peoples lives by trumpeting tons of
| > charges with little to no solid proof.
|
| Unfortunately no one seems to be interested in the fact that McCarthy was
| being fed his information by the CIA who then cut his channels after
| pressure from the White House and Congressmen who might have been involved
| in stupidity if not outright criminal activity themselves.
|
| The records from the old Soviet Union pretty much backed up everything
| McCarthy said.
|


McCarthy accused a shitload of people of being communists. Most were not,
although many lives were ruined by the accusations. The records from the
Soviet Union and from VENONA did not indicate who was a communist, but
rather who was a spy (not the same thing) and who was approached by the
Soviets (regardless of whether that contact yielded anything).

In fact typical of Tailgunner Joe, when he stated he would turn over
evidence of subversive activities by government employees and Senator Lehmen
called him on it, he couldn't produce anything.
 
"Simon Brooke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> in message <[email protected]>, <Montesquiou> ('')
> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Well, Epo is THE standard prescription drug for people taking
>>> Chem-therapy. So that he has taken Epo when he was treated for cancer
>>> is no surprise.
>>
>> ...testosterone, growth hormones and cortisone also is THE standard ?
>
> Testosterone (hormone replacement therapy) is certainly normal for anyone
> who has, errr, dropped a goolie, as they say. And EPO is certainly
> normal in counteracting the side effects of strong chemotherapy for
> cancer. You would only be prescribed EPO /while/ undergoing
> chemotherapy, but you'd be quite likely to be - perfectly legitimately -
> prescribed the testosterone for life, or at least into your 60s.
>
> Men with reduced levels of testosterone (for example, men who have had a
> testicle removed and who are not receiving HRT) typically have sharply
> reduced levels of aggression and competitiveness. In other words, they
> are not Headstrong. However, if prescribed just ever so slightly more
> than a replacement dose... these things are so hard to calculate
> exactly, after all...

Come on Simon, as long as your imagination is going you can do better than
that. Why don't you imagine a miracle drug that makes you a perfect bicycle
racer but it completely undetectable? Isn't that a whole lot easier to
explain than imaginary testorsterone treatments which his doctors claim
isn't necessary if you only lose one testical and which no record of which
was ever found by l'Equipe?
 
Simon Brooke wrote:
> in message <[email protected]>, <Montesquiou> ('')
> wrote:
>
>
>>>Well, Epo is THE standard prescription drug for people taking
>>>Chem-therapy. So that he has taken Epo when he was treated for cancer
>>>is no surprise.
>>
>>...testosterone, growth hormones and cortisone also is THE standard ?
>
>
> Testosterone (hormone replacement therapy) is certainly normal for anyone
> who has, errr, dropped a goolie, as they say. And EPO is certainly
> normal in counteracting the side effects of strong chemotherapy for
> cancer. You would only be prescribed EPO /while/ undergoing
> chemotherapy, but you'd be quite likely to be - perfectly legitimately -
> prescribed the testosterone for life, or at least into your 60s.

Even if you've only lost ONE testicle? (serious question) I always
imagined it was like losing one kidney - no extraordinary compensating
measures required, since the other one takes over. Again, seriously,
for men losing only one of two testicles, is lifetime HRT often prescribed?

> Men with reduced levels of testosterone (for example, men who have had a
> testicle removed and who are not receiving HRT) typically have sharply
> reduced levels of aggression and competitiveness. In other words, they
> are not Headstrong. However, if prescribed just ever so slightly more
> than a replacement dose... these things are so hard to calculate
> exactly, after all...

All understood if both testicles were lost, but does it really read that
way with just one?

-Mark
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>

> There is an excellent NPR report on this at:
> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5508863
> It has some new info and audio of Betsy commenting on the case. I have
> to say that even though I prefer not to believe it, she sounds pretty
> convincing. It comes down to: what's her motivation to lie? I can't
> think of a really plausible one, though I'd like to know why the two
> dislike each other so much. My apologies if this link was already
> posted.

Looking at it from another perspective, though, can you really believe that
if he was guilty Lance would be so stupid as to make these admissions in
front of *anyone*? Even friends? Even doctors who were not his primary
physicians? Why would he do that?

Rich
 
rich wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
>
> > There is an excellent NPR report on this at:
> > http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5508863
> > It has some new info and audio of Betsy commenting on the case. I have
> > to say that even though I prefer not to believe it, she sounds pretty
> > convincing. It comes down to: what's her motivation to lie? I can't
> > think of a really plausible one, though I'd like to know why the two
> > dislike each other so much. My apologies if this link was already
> > posted.
>
> Looking at it from another perspective, though, can you really believe that
> if he was guilty Lance would be so stupid as to make these admissions in
> front of *anyone*? Even friends? Even doctors who were not his primary
> physicians? Why would he do that?
>
> Rich

What if it wasn't new information to the Andreus? It's not like these
guys only see each other from 9 to 5.
 
[email protected] wrote:
> rich wrote:
> > <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> >
> > > There is an excellent NPR report on this at:
> > > http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5508863
> > > It has some new info and audio of Betsy commenting on the case. I have
> > > to say that even though I prefer not to believe it, she sounds pretty
> > > convincing. It comes down to: what's her motivation to lie? I can't
> > > think of a really plausible one, though I'd like to know why the two
> > > dislike each other so much. My apologies if this link was already
> > > posted.
> >
> > Looking at it from another perspective, though, can you really believe that
> > if he was guilty Lance would be so stupid as to make these admissions in
> > front of *anyone*? Even friends? Even doctors who were not his primary
> > physicians? Why would he do that?
> >
> > Rich
>

Maybe because he was a dumbass.........or maybe because he did what
Betsy said.
It really doesn't matter, the source of such information will always
be a
ex-teammate/roommate/coach/mechanic/therapist/girlfriend/boyfriend/significant
other.
All have some vendetta or pay-back against Lance according to his
attorneys.
Is it really possible that all these people have conspired against
Lance or do they really know the truth....
Let's face it, the guy survived cancer and he is a hero to millions and
anyone attacking him must be out to get him or simply envious of his
fame and fortune.
Someday the truth will come out and people will know that he wasn't
what everyone thought he was.
Don't sell Brian Lafferty short on his Lance campaign, maybe Brian has
had it right all along....
 
[email protected] wrote:
> rich wrote:
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Looking at it from another perspective, though, can you really believe that
> > if he was guilty Lance would be so stupid as to make these admissions in
> > front of *anyone*? Even friends? Even doctors who were not his primary
> > physicians? Why would he do that?
>
> What if it wasn't new information to the Andreus? It's not like these
> guys only see each other from 9 to 5.

I wonder how much they actually say to each other and
how much is sort of wink-and-nod, though.

At the time, Armstrong was thinking about surviving a
very scary cancer and probably not worrying so much about
whether this could come back on him ten years later.
This is long before Lance became LANCE, after all.
There was no guarantee he would live, let alone become
a megastar whose entire career would be pored over and
who would have a lot to lose.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

D
News on the Tom & Armstrong Affair
Replies
0
Views
407
Road Cycling
[email protected]
D
A
Re: Good News For Armstrong
Replies
47
Views
2K
Road Cycling
Michael Press
M
J
In the News: It's Armstrong's Final Chapter, and Cycling's Muddled Epilogue
Replies
15
Views
779
Road Cycling
[email protected]
I
J
In the News: Armstrong withdraws from Tour of Qatar
Replies
28
Views
1K
Road Cycling
Howard Kveck
H
J
In the News: Armstrong not done yet
Replies
2
Views
464
Road Cycling
Tom Kunich
T
Top Bottom Back