Improving Lightning braking

FYI. My P-38 was painstakingly assembled and dialed in for me by an extremely competent Lightning
dealer who was a racing car mechanic in his past life.

He demonstrated to me how much flex is inherent in the lightweight cromoly P-38 frame and how it
adversely affects braking.

--
Gator Bob Siegel EasyRacers Ti Rush "Cletus Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

One of my constant battles withy Lightning P-38/F40 Voyager has been achieving decent braking
power. First off the OEM Odyssey A-brakes spec'd on the front were pathetic. The Shimano XT on the
back were not much better. I replaced the front first with Avid which were modified to reverse the
cable. Better, but nothing to brag about. next I replaced the modified Avid with CaneCreek DC-5
which could be easily mounted left or right. These were only slightly better than te Avid and the
rear still sucked! I replaced the rear with CaneCreek DC-5 but still had a mushy feel. In
discussing this with other P-38 pilots, I came to the conclusion that the problem might be
entirely in the OEM Ritchey Logic (special LCD bend) brake levers. Since the special bend was
essential to fit the shap of the LCD handlebars. I was reluctant to replace with straight levers.

A few weeks ago, I noticed the CaneCreek DC-5 rear brake was rusted to the point of non
functioning, so I decided to replace everything with some Shimano matched levers and V-brakes.
Taking a cue from Cyclegenius and Bacchetta, I routed the front cable down the left side of the
headtube and around behind the fork to sneak up on the brakes from behind. To achieve the
destinctive LCD bend, I put the brake levers in a vise and applied an appropriate tap with a
BMF hammer.

I have brakes!!! I have the best braking since before I first got the Lightning. I can skid tires!
I can lock bothe wheels! I can stop.

And I guess I had better since I have rambled on long enough.
--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

Quoted message said:

I decided to replace

everything with some Shimano matched levers and V-brakes.>>

Cletus,

Good idea! What model V-brakes and levers did you use?

Norm

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I decided to replace

everything with some Shimano matched levers and V-brakes.>>

Cletus,

Good idea! What model V-brakes and levers did you use?

Shimano XTR 2003

BL-M950 Brake levers and BR-M960 V-brakes.

Soon, I will post some pictures.
--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

I have a P-38 and can relate to your braking woes. The stock Oddessy brakes really suck, I attempted
to install Avids with no luck. It seems that the rims are too wide and the brake arms stick way out
from the frame tubes. I tried to alter the shim stack-up on the arms, but it only made a slight
improvement. I have no problem with changing the levers to shimano XTR if that will help, but I
really want to find a replacement for those damn crappy stock Oddesseys!!!

I wanna see a pic of the hammer ;-) When I turned wrenches I had one I called "Will Go". Then for
the really tough jobs where finesse was not a consideration I had "Percy" sledge. bill g

Cletus Lee said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I decided to replace

everything with some Shimano matched levers and V-brakes.>>

Cletus,

Good idea! What model V-brakes and levers did you use?

Shimano XTR 2003

BL-M950 Brake levers and BR-M960 V-brakes.

Soon, I will post some pictures.
--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

Bob, I thought the best thing about the P-38 was the stiff frame,what am I missing here? I have
Shimano 105's [dual caliper road brakes] on mine and it stops on a dime ,so it's not the frame.
Maybe it's the way they're adjusted . I also had an Odyssey A brake on the rear of my first P-38 and
I thought it was a good brake,worked fine for me. Maybe I'm too easy to please,but my wife would
have something to say about that. Ben fox P-38 Stratus "Robert Siegel" <[email hidden]>
wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

FYI. My P-38 was painstakingly assembled and dialed in for me by an extremely competent Lightning
dealer who was a racing car mechanic in his past life.

He demonstrated to me how much flex is inherent in the lightweight cromoly P-38 frame and how it
adversely affects braking.

--
Gator Bob Siegel EasyRacers Ti Rush "Cletus Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

One of my constant battles withy Lightning P-38/F40 Voyager has been achieving decent braking
power. First off the OEM Odyssey A-brakes spec'd on the front were pathetic. The Shimano XT on
the back were not much better. I replaced the front first with Avid which were modified to
reverse the cable. Better, but nothing to brag about. next I replaced the modified Avid with
CaneCreek DC-5 which could be easily mounted left or right. These were only slightly better than
te Avid and the rear still sucked! I replaced the rear with CaneCreek DC-5 but still had a mushy
feel. In discussing this with other P-38 pilots, I came to the conclusion that the problem might
be entirely in the OEM Ritchey Logic (special LCD bend) brake levers. Since the special bend was
essential to fit the shap of the LCD handlebars. I was reluctant to replace with straight
levers.

A few weeks ago, I noticed the CaneCreek DC-5 rear brake was rusted to the point of non
functioning, so I decided to replace everything with some Shimano matched levers and V-brakes.
Taking a cue from Cyclegenius and Bacchetta, I routed the front cable down the left side of the
headtube and around behind the fork to sneak up on the brakes from behind. To achieve the
destinctive LCD bend, I put the brake levers in a vise and applied an appropriate tap with a BMF
hammer.

I have brakes!!! I have the best braking since before I first got the Lightning. I can skid
tires! I can lock bothe wheels! I can stop.

And I guess I had better since I have rambled on long enough.
--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

The P-38 is long gone so I cannot refresh my memory ... but I recall seeing the rear frame "stays"
that held the brake flex considerably. On the other hand, the bike seemed to stop OK. I didn't ride
it on serious hills but maybe I'm also easy to please.
--
Gator Bob Siegel EasyRacers Ti Rush

"Ben Fox" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I thought the best thing about the P-38 was the stiff frame,what am I missing here?

I love hearing about a job where the BMF hammer is the correct answer. Goldberg should get one of
those for his pedals.

Rod Kuehl RANS V2 Challenge Wizard Riverview, FL "a&b" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I wanna see a pic of the hammer ;-) When I turned wrenches I had one I called "Will Go". Then for
the really tough jobs where finesse was not a consideration I had "Percy" sledge. bill g

Cletus Lee said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

>I decided to replace
everything with some Shimano matched levers and V-brakes.>>

Cletus,

Good idea! What model V-brakes and levers did you use?

Shimano XTR 2003

BL-M950 Brake levers and BR-M960 V-brakes.

Soon, I will post some pictures.
--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

If the stays are flexing, can't you use one of those horseshoe-shaped contraptions? I forgot what
they're called, but have a cheap one I got from Performance. Works great on the V-Rex.

--
--Scott [email hidden] Cut the "tail" to send email.

"Robert Siegel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The P-38 is long gone so I cannot refresh my memory ... but I recall

seeing

Quoted message said:

the rear frame "stays" that held the brake flex considerably. On the

other

Quoted message said:

hand, the bike seemed to stop OK. I didn't ride it on serious hills but maybe I'm also easy
to please.
--
Gator Bob Siegel EasyRacers Ti Rush

"Ben Fox" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I thought the best thing about the P-38 was the stiff frame,what am I missing here?

There was a guy that always requested me when he came in for service. Problem was he *literally*
shadowed my every movement while working on the vehicle. I'd encourage him to wait in our waiting
room, have coffee. But he would stay, even if the Service Manager pointed out the "Due to Liability,
Customers...." sign. Well one day this goober is mime-ing my hand movements. It was like some Monty
Python skit. At one point I turned around and almost banged heads with him and hit my head on the
lift dodging his. I went over and got Will-Go out of my toolbox and went to my steel workbench and
started wailing away on the bench. Made a lot of noise. When I looked back at the car the goober was
gone. I figured he'd gone to the manager, but no, there he was in the waiting room window. After
that, he'd still request me but stayed out of the shop area. bill g

Rodney Kuehl said:

I love hearing about a job where the BMF hammer is the correct answer. Goldberg should get one of
those for his pedals.

Rod Kuehl RANS V2 Challenge Wizard Riverview, FL "a&b" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I wanna see a pic of the hammer ;-) When I turned wrenches I had one I called "Will Go". Then
for the really tough jobs where finesse was not a consideration I had "Percy" sledge. bill g

Cletus Lee said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...
> >I decided to replace
> everything with some Shimano matched levers and V-brakes.>>
>
> Cletus,
>
> Good idea! What model V-brakes and levers did you use?

Shimano XTR 2003

BL-M950 Brake levers and BR-M960 V-brakes.

Soon, I will post some pictures.
--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

--
real email [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

If the stays are flexing, can't you use one of those horseshoe-shaped contraptions? I forgot what
they're called, but have a cheap one I got from Performance. Works great on the V-Rex.

I believe they are called brake boosters.

Derek

Ben Fox said:

Bob, I thought the best thing about the P-38 was the stiff frame,what am I missing here? I have
Shimano 105's [dual caliper road brakes] on mine and it stops on a dime ,so it's not the frame.
Maybe it's the way they're adjusted . I also had an Odyssey A brake on the rear of my first P-38
and I thought it was a good brake,worked fine for me. Maybe I'm too easy to please,but my wife
would have something to say about that.

Ben,

Frame flex is not an issue with caliper brakes - on some bikes with cantilever or direct pull
(V-brakes) brakes, the chainstays can be observed to flex outwards when the brake is applies (this
is true of the 1997-2000 RANS Rockets, Tailwinds, and Waves by my observation).

I had Odyssey A brakes on my Wishbone and they worked fine with both the stock pads and Kool Stop
"Salmon" pads.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side) RANS "Wavewind" and Rocket, Earth Cycles Sunset and
Dragonflyer

Well, I tok the plunge today and installed M-960 Shimano brakes front and rear. I still have to bend
the XTR levers and get some cable enders at my LBS but things at least LOOK good now!! I always
hated those cheap looking Oddessy brakes on my overpriced P-38, so now it is even more overpriced,
but my thirst for gadgets and gizmos is satisified. I neglected to rout the cable around the back of
the caliper as you did Cletus, but will do it before the first ride. What was the angle of your
noodle? 90 or 45 ? And did you fabricate a new cable or use the stock one? I did notice that there
is very little clearance between the pad and the rim at the rear due to the back of the pad
contacting the frame tubing. This made it hard to get things centered though it worked out in the
end, perhaps I will relieve the back of the pad a mm or so. I would love to see some pics of your
installation to see if I am doing it right. Next project is to install the Rapid Rise XTR rear
deurailleur I got on eBay last week. I have only had the bike since before Xmas and I am still
improving my conditioning, thus every ride I go better: farther and faster!!! I am still a slow old
fart of 50, but there is hope..........I an doing a 45 mile out and back along the beach here in Los
Angeles and average 15.5 mph. I can cruise at 18 to 20 but then [censored] out at about mile 30 or so. I
live in a hilly area and want to build strength before I try to climb the local mountain roads.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Well, I tok the plunge today and installed M-960 Shimano brakes front and rear. I still have to
bend the XTR levers and get some cable enders at my LBS but things at least LOOK good now!! ..

Quoted message said:

I neglected to rout the cable around the back of the caliper as you did Cletus, but will do it
before the first ride. What was the angle of your noodle? 90 or 45 ? And did you fabricate a new
cable or use the stock one?

The cable is routed 90° from vertical. I used new cable housing cut to the proper length and of
course new cable.

Quoted message said:

I did notice that there is very little clearance between the pad and the rim at the rear due to
the back of the pad contacting the frame tubing. This made it hard to get things centered though
it worked out in the end, perhaps I will relieve the back of the pad a mm or so.

I have e 559 rear wheel so fortunately this was not an issue for me. Lightning has used the same
rear geometry for both 559 and 622 since calipers and this does not leave much room for a modern
'V-Brake' with larger wheels. However, LCD mounted my rear brakes on the bottom of the chain stays
and this causes clearance problems for me with the chain dragging on the brake arm.

Quoted message said:

I would love to see some pics of your installation to see if I am doing it right.

clee.orgVoyagerFrontBrake.JPGOpen ↗
clee.orgXTRlever1.JPGOpen ↗
clee.orgXTRleverLCD.JPGOpen ↗
clee.orgXTRRear.JPGOpen ↗

I also have a pic of my tool kit made from a Topeak Handy Phone Pack. It sits under the frame. I
have since rotated it 180° and moved it inside the space frame under the seat. It is not as easy to
get to there, but it is better protected.
clee.orgHandyPhonePack.JPGOpen ↗

--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

Thanks for the response, I just installed the XTR levers and cut and routed the cable as you did.
Amazing feel at the lever!!! I was concerned about the front noodle hitting the idler pulley, so I
bent the noodle out a bit and downward a bit and now can almost turn the bar lock to lock. The bar
range of movement is way beyond anything I would see in motion and any possible interference will
only occur paddleing around a parking lot. Tomorrow I will relieve the back of the rear pads to give
a bit more clearance at the rim.