Improvement with Power Metering

My LT has gone from ~241w in July, to 276w last Tuesday.

My TT speed has gone from 38.1kph (flat course, no corners) to 40.4kph (slight undulation, 4 laps, lots of corners). Aiming at >42kph on a flat course on the next test.

I have dropped more that 2 minutes off a 50 minute undulating climb in nearby hills.

I have dropped a minute off a 10 minute climb up our local "mountain" (Mt Coot-tha, Brisbane, Aus) ... average (now) of 320watts.

All of this in the last 6 months.

Oh - and you can wish me happy 40th birthday in 33 days.

Regards, MJH

AndROOb said:

I am on the brink of buying a powertap, just got to get the car roadworthy for the next year, then it's time, it will be soon... ... ...
Out of interest, I am interested to know how you would rate your improvement since using a power meter of any kind?
Through using a power meter have you made gains above what you were expecting in terms of your performance on the bike, if you were to compare your gains in performance on the bike before using a power meter?
Are there any tips you can give me, or things I need to know, once I start using a powertap, so I can make the most of it?
My discipline is mainly 10, 25 and 50 mile TT's if this is of any significance.

I've been riding seriously, I thought, for years and owned a Computrainer for over a year. I started reading this forum about a few months back. I have learned a great deal about working "smart." I purchased Cycling peaks software maybe 5 weeks ago? I started getting faster almost immediately at that point - the point where I married the power meter, training information and detailed feedback. I have a long way to go, but I already feel like I'm on 'roids when I ride with the team on Tuesday nights.

I will be purchasing a PT within a year so I can train efficiently outdoors as well.

You won't regret it.

I've increased my FT by ~75w since getting my PT about 5 months ago, but I attribute it to 2hrs/day of riding and a structured program of high-intensity and recovery rides. Basically, I followed Andy Coggan's training schema, which can be used with PMs, HRMs or by RPE. I think I would have made comparable FT improvements even if I had ridden by RPE. So, I attribute my improvements to Andy and not to my PT. But, I immediately learned the drawback of training with a HRM. The training time that really counts is the time at L4-L7, especially L4 and L5 work. The problem with doing intervals based on a HRM is that after you get your HR up, you can "float" a bit and the HRM won't budge. So, you're really sort of cheating but the HRM lies and says you are constantly in the range. When I got my PM, I learned what it's like to do a true L4 interval for 20 minutes or an L5 interval for 8 minutes. It's a lot different when you can't cheat. There's much, much more to be gained by training with power, testing with power and learning to manage your power. That will help you immensely in your TTs, especially if you learn how to deploy VP pacing. I will never again ride without power.

RapDaddyo said:

Basically, I followed Andy Coggan's training schema...

Where is Andy's training scheme documented?

BTW, like most folks on this list, I'm looking forward to his book coming out.

objective said:

Where is Andy's training scheme documented?

midweekclub.cacoggan.pdfOpen ↗. BTW, it does sometimes seem more like a scheme than a schema, especially when I am in the last minute of an L5 interval.

objective said:

BTW, like most folks on this list, I'm looking forward to his book coming out.

Me too.

RapDaddyo said:

midweekclub.cacoggan.pdfOpen ↗. BTW, it does sometimes seem more like a scheme than a schema, especially when I am in the last minute of an L5 interval.

🙂

Ironically, when I first posted it to the wattage list I referred to it as "training by the numbers", an allusion to those paint-by-number-schemes...

Joking aside, though, this does raise an important point, in that all I've done is attempt to lay out a cogent system for classifying/categorizing/rating training sessions performed using a powermeter. In itself, this is obviously not a training plan, which would consist of deciding how much time/how many level X intervals to do at what point in the season, etc. So, while I'm also happy to hear that I've positively influenced people's fitness/performance with ideas like this, I don't really feel like I really deserve all that much credit - that really belongs to 1) the rider putting in the work, and 2) the individual actually making the above decisions. Or, to express the way one of my TrainingManager beta-tester coaches put it the other day: "your (analytical tool) has helped put a face on my training plan."

objective said:

like most folks on this list, I'm looking forward to his book coming out.

I'm glad to hear that, but it's really more Hunter's book than mine, as he did the majority of the work in putting it together (which is why he's the first author).

BTW, the other day I mistakenly said it was being published by Human Kinetics - in fact, Inside Communications (VeloNews, etc.) is the publisher.

acoggan said:

Joking aside, though, this does raise an important point, in that all I've done is attempt to lay out a cogent system for classifying/categorizing/rating training sessions performed using a powermeter. In itself, this is obviously not a training plan, which would consist of deciding how much time/how many level X intervals to do at what point in the season, etc. So, while I'm also happy to hear that I've positively influenced people's fitness/performance with ideas like this, I don't really feel like I really deserve all that much credit - that really belongs to 1) the rider putting in the work, and 2) the individual actually making the above decisions. Or, to express the way one of my TrainingManager beta-tester coaches put it the other day: "your (analytical tool) has helped put a face on my training plan."

With all due respect, I think your paper is way more than that. For openers, it discusses and explains the logic behind training at different levels. Secondly, it provides a logical and simple way (multiple ways, actually) of testing and tracking one's fitness. You're right that there's still the non-trivial matter of allocating training and recovery time to specific levels for specific adaptations and the annual training cycle. What I like the most about it is that it is not a "black box" approach. Too often, people (even some coaches?) recommend a certain approach without explaining the underlying logic. I can think of only one criticism: one needs a bit of intelligence to read it and completely understand it. I've read and re-read certain sections and I'm still not sure I understand. But, I'm working on it.

objective said:

Where is Andy's training scheme documented?

BTW, like most folks on this list, I'm looking forward to his book coming out.

Ironically, I just stumbled across this:

http://www.pgw.com/catalog/catalog.monthly.asp?ShipMonth=42006&Action=View&Index=Title&Book=357846&Order=233

I'm currently checking with Hunter to see if the April '06 release date is accurate (and also to find out if they really did screw up and list me as an M.D., not a Ph.D.!).

Question to Andy or rapdad regarding training zones for LT 4

I have a 250watt ave for my CP12min

I was told to do these then at 10% below which would be 225watts, seems kind of easy then, my CP30 is 225.
Why wouldn’t you do them right at 250watts? Is it because you would be able to do more, 4 or 5 at 225watts verses only being able to do 2 or 3 if you did them at exactly 250watts. Is this where adaptation takes place, when its a slight bit easier but you can do more of them.

Thanks

jeff828 said:

Question to Andy or rapdad regarding training zones for LT 4

I have a 250watt ave for my CP12min

I was told to do these then at 10% below which would be 225watts, seems kind of easy then, my CP30 is 225.
Why wouldn’t you do them right at 250watts? Is it because you would be able to do more, 4 or 5 at 225watts verses only being able to do 2 or 3 if you did them at exactly 250watts. Is this where adaptation takes place, when its a slight bit easier but you can do more of them.

Thanks

To be clear, what do you mean by CP12 and CP30? Is this your max sustainable power at 12 and 30 mins respectively?

MikeHains said:

I have dropped a minute off a 10 minute climb up our local "mountain" (Mt Coot-tha, Brisbane, Aus) ... average (now) of 320watts

Gday, I'm from Brissy too 🙂

Just wondering which way you go around Mt Coot-tha and where the start and finish points are for your measurements? Was your time 11min before you knocked off the 1 min, or 10min? I don't have a PM, but if I timed myself over the same section that you have, at least I can do some comparison to your figures. Do you have any times for the short climb up Mt Gravatt?

Peka said:

Gday, I'm from Brissy too 🙂

Just wondering which way you go around Mt Coot-tha ...

G'day Peka. I've trained both directions. The 10 minute time was up the 'back' starting at the last intersection, and riding up towards the TV stations ... ending at Channel 10.

My best time up that way, now, is 9'09" - at average 321w.

This is fast for me, but there are plenty who ride faster especially those darn skinny young ones ! See cycle2max.comFregionOpen ↗

For Mt Gravatt, my best time so far is a (lowly) 6'54". This was at average 320w.

I weigh 75kg, and my bike (with water, pump, etc) comes in at around 8.5kg.

Regards, MJH

Peka,

Just another thought. I got my first PT wheel on 24 June. I got my second wheel last month (for TT's). If all my cycling gear was stolen, the first thing I would replace would be the powermeter. Either a PT or (maybe) an SRM. If necessary, I would ride an 2nd hand aluminium clunker ... but I wouldn't be without my power meter again !

Why ? Because, more than anything else, every week, I can see little improvements. Even if on the road I can't tell the difference, the PT shows me that I am getting better.

Oh, and also ... because I like to see very minor improvements, I wouldn't bother at all with a powermeter that was not dependably accurate.

This is probably more than $0.02 ... but anyway ... MJH

MikeHains said:

G'day Peka. I've trained both directions. The 10 minute time was up the 'back' starting at the last intersection, and riding up towards the TV stations ... ending at Channel 10.

My best time up that way, now, is 9'09" - at average 321w.

This is fast for me, but there are plenty who ride faster especially those darn skinny young ones ! See cycle2max.comFregionOpen ↗

For Mt Gravatt, my best time so far is a (lowly) 6'54". This was at average 320w.

I weigh 75kg, and my bike (with water, pump, etc) comes in at around 8.5kg

Thanks for that. My best up Mt Gravatt so far is about 8:03. I'm 73kg but my bike with water etc is 16kg (MTB) and I've only been riding again since early August.

RapDaddyo said:

To be clear, what do you mean by CP12 and CP30? Is this your max sustainable power at 12 and 30 mins respectively?

Yes this my max sustainable power

acoggan said:

Joking aside, though, this does raise an important point, in that all I've done is attempt to lay out a cogent system for classifying/categorizing/rating training sessions performed using a powermeter.

Agree with Rapdaddyo here, your paper is more than that to me. Specifically, it also explains and quantifies the benefits of training in the different zones, and the time cost associated with each. In my mind, that cost v. benefit explanation is paramount to an individual deciding how he will spend his limited training time, which leads directly into determining how many level-X workouts to put into the training plan.

Possibly I'm reading more into your paper than what you intended, or using a "Sample Diagram" as a "Map," but I think reading your paper has helped me structure my training plan more than any other thing I can think of. Thank you.

jeff828 said:

I have a 250watt ave for my CP12min

I was told to do these then at 10% below which would be 225watts, seems kind of easy then, my CP30 is 225.
Why wouldn’t you do them right at 250watts? Is it because you would be able to do more, 4 or 5 at 225watts verses only being able to do 2 or 3 if you did them at exactly 250watts. Is this where adaptation takes place, when its a slight bit easier but you can do more of them.

Both total time in zone and the duration of each excursion into the zone affect the degree of adaptation.

Are you saying that 250w is your best 12-min power for a "one-time" effort? If so, then you wouldn't be able to do 12min @ 250w, multiple (3-5) times with short recoveries in between. The reason for the "10% below highest ever power at that duration" is to ensure that you're able to complete the entire workout without having to drop the power on each subsequent interval.

The idea for intervals (w/ rests between) is to extend the number of total minutes spent in-zone, so it's important to be able to complete the entire set in the target zone.

frenchyge said:

Both total time in zone and the duration of each excursion into the zone affect the degree of adaptation.

Are you saying that 250w is your best 12-min power for a "one-time" effort? If so, then you wouldn't be able to do 12min @ 250w, multiple (3-5) times with short recoveries in between. The reason for the "10% below highest ever power at that duration" is to ensure that you're able to complete the entire workout without having to drop the power on each subsequent interval.

The idea for intervals (w/ rests between) is to extend the number of total minutes spent in-zone, so it's important to be able to complete the entire set in the target zone.

Thanks french, that is what I thought I just needed someone to confirm that I was thinking correct. 🙂