Important Omission on Folding Bikes

I

Quoted message said:

I sent this as customer feedback to Dahon UK today. Support me if you
agree!

Snip

Quoted message said:

Couldn't you design something that would
somehow
make it impossible for an unauthorized user to make use of your bikes?
I'm

Snip

Quoted message said:

I'm reluctant to take my bike on tour with me, even though I bought it
for that
purpose, because I don't want to let it out of my sight!

As a recent purchaser of a Brompton I couldn't agree more. It may not
stop it getting nicked but it would make the bike less of a target.
--
Bob Downie
Downie GeoScience Ltd.
please remove #n0spam# to reply directly

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

I sent this as customer feedback to Dahon UK today. Support me if you
agree!

***
The One Thing that's Missing on your Great Bikes!

Dear Dahon,

I acquired an Impulse P21 in November and am very pleased with it.

One very important thing, though, is missing on all your bikes: a really

effective anti-theft device. Couldn't you design something that would
somehow
make it impossible for an unauthorized user to make use of your bikes?
I'm
thinking along the lines of something that would make it impossible to
fix the folding mechanism into riding posture. Without the special key
or lock
the bicycle would refuse to stay rigid in the middle. That way no extra
weight
would be added, as is the case carrying around a monstrous u-lock, and
it
shouldn't interfere with the folding mechanism.

It's just that they're great bikes and quite pricey and way too easy to
steal.
I'm reluctant to take my bike on tour with me, even though I bought it
for that
purpose, because I don't want to let it out of my sight!

Yours sincerely,

With a folding bike you can often take it with you and either keep watch
on it or leave it somewhere a lot more secure than in the street. That
will not work all the time, so a lock is necessary. There's no doubt it
is frustrating to get a decent lightweight bike and then have to carry a
very heavy lock to secure it.

However, the problem with your idea is that although it might make the
bike unrideable to a casual thief, it does nothing to prevent it being
thrown in the back of a vehicle and taken away to be fixed up later.
It's not really enough to just make the bike not work. It is far better
for it to be anchored to something that prevents it being removed at all.

I've done quite a lot of touring. It's not possible to avoid every risk.
Carrying a lock is a choice, how much you use it is a choice, and
sometimes you just have to choose whether to leave the bike and your
luggage somewhere while you wander off for a while although there is
nothing to which the bike can be attached . In some places I am quite
relaxed about doing that. In other places I would not dream of it.

--
Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap

Quoted message said:

The One Thing that's Missing on your Great Bikes!

Yeah - something incorporated into the frame so that the bike can be folded
around a lampost/sheffield stand and cannot be removed without cutting
through the frame. It would be fairly light because the locking mechanism
is the only thing that needs to be tough - the rest of the lock is the bike
frame so cutting through it would defeat the object.

Bob Downie wrote:
|| I
||| I sent this as customer feedback to Dahon UK today. Support me if
||| you agree!
|||
|| Snip
||| Couldn't you design something that would
||| somehow
||| make it impossible for an unauthorized user to make use of your
||| bikes? I'm
|||
|| Snip
||| I'm reluctant to take my bike on tour with me, even though I bought
||| it for that
||| purpose, because I don't want to let it out of my sight!
|||
||
|| As a recent purchaser of a Brompton I couldn't agree more. It may not
|| stop it getting nicked but it would make the bike less of a target.

Why would it be less of a target? Even if the person doing the stealing
isn't aware that it can't be ridden, it may still get stolen. A lot of the
time theft is the result of opportunity. Having a heavy U-lock on it may
deter a lot of would be bike thieves from bothering. Having a non-obvious
theft deferent would be ineffective, IME.

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

I sent this as customer feedback to Dahon UK today. Support me if you
agree!

I've never locked my Brompton up - I just take it with me and have never
yet been refused entry from supermarkets to courts to the poshest
hotels. The problem with your idea is its too easy to just lob it in the
back of a car and sort the problem of the frame out later - they do that
with full size bikes and a truck. What you do need is a different type
of lock because folding bikes generally do not have a conventional
diamond frame to put a lock through.

Tony

On 13/12/04 4:56 pm, in article [email hidden],

JLB said:

With a folding bike you can often take it with you and either keep watch
on it or leave it somewhere a lot more secure than in the street. That
will not work all the time, so a lock is necessary. There's no doubt it
is frustrating to get a decent lightweight bike and then have to carry a
very heavy lock to secure it.

It is a universal law.

weight of bike + weight of appropriate lock = constant.

...d

Quoted message said:

Why would it be less of a target? Even if the person doing the stealing
isn't aware that it can't be ridden, it may still get stolen. A lot of the
time theft is the result of opportunity. Having a heavy U-lock on it may
deter a lot of would be bike thieves from bothering. Having a non-obvious
theft deferent would be ineffective, IME.

In the real world you want to get off your bike for 2 minutes to buy a
paper. Locking it can be one pain in the [censored] (assuming there is
anything to lock it to and you are carrying your 2kg U-lock).

All else being equal, if there is an unattended bike which you cannot
ride next to one you can, odds are that the one you can ride will be
stolen.

It should be simple to implement an integral locking system in a folding
bike so why not. Its far from a perfect security measure but why not
add it anyway?
--
Bob Downie
Downie GeoScience Ltd.
please remove #n0spam# to reply directly

It would be slightly useful against a thief who would jump on and ride
off, but not useful against someone lifting the bike up and putting it
into a vehicle.

With a Brompton you can remove the thingees that hold the steerer and
the frame together, and take them with you.

On a bike with S&S Torque couplings, you can secure the frame around a
post or tree, and you'd need a tool to get it apart (though I suppose
Vise Grips (TM) might also work).

I forwarded your suggestion on to the VP of Dahon (and son of the
founder), since he'd be a better person to answer this than the UK
sales office. If he answers me, I'll post the reply, but he may send
you an e-mail directly. He's a really good guy, I'd be surprised if he
doesn't respond.

Bob Downie wrote:
||| Why would it be less of a target? Even if the person doing the
||| stealing isn't aware that it can't be ridden, it may still get
||| stolen. A lot of the time theft is the result of opportunity.
||| Having a heavy U-lock on it may deter a lot of would be bike
||| thieves from bothering. Having a non-obvious theft deferent would
||| be ineffective, IME.
|||
|| In the real world you want to get off your bike for 2 minutes to buy
|| a paper. Locking it can be one pain in the [censored] (assuming there is
|| anything to lock it to and you are carrying your 2kg U-lock).
||
|| All else being equal, if there is an unattended bike which you cannot
|| ride next to one you can, odds are that the one you can ride will be
|| stolen.
||

Interesting. The bike is left for 2 minutes. Within that time, someone is
fishing through the unattended bikes to see which can be ridden and which
can't (a big U-lock would tell them quickest). I can see how someone
getting on a folding bike and finding they can't ride it might foil the
attempt....but it won't stop them from putting in the back of a truck if it
can be easily moved.

|| It should be simple to implement an integral locking system in a
|| folding bike so why not. Its far from a perfect security measure but
|| why not
|| add it anyway?

Cost and effectiveness, I would guess. If it's ineffective as a deterent,
but gives the owner a false sense of security (as did the Krypton U-Locks),
then what happens later?

Perhaps this could be an option they will offer their customers.

NOTHING will make a bike completely theftproof. A locking system that makes
theft "inconvenient" may deter a casual thief, or cause him to pick a
different bike, but if it provides the owner a false sense of security, it
may be worse than nothing. For a Dahon folder, I think a lock that holds
the bike half folded (frame forms a 90 degree angle) would make the bike
impossible to roll, and difficult to put in a trunk or back seat of a car.
Once you start to consider what a thief with a truck can do, you might as
well give up. I once heard of a theft where a flatbed truck was used to
haul away a rack with all the bikes locked to it. (Could be an urban
legent, but it's possible.)

In message <[email hidden]>, Roger Zoul
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

I can see how someone
getting on a folding bike and finding they can't ride it might foil the
attempt....but it won't stop them from putting in the back of a truck if it
can be easily moved.

An acquaintance had his motorbike stolen from the halls of residence car
park on the first day of term. It had been locked with a chain, so
presumably it had been loaded onto a pick up truck and driven away.

On a couple of occasions I cycled by Brompton to my local swimming pool.
I didn't take a lock, but removed the tube clamps and put them in the
locker along with my clothes. I never felt comfortable doing this as
there was nothing to stop someone else carrying it out with him, though
I doubt that any swimmers drive to that particular pool. One alternative
was to ask the staff to keep it behind their desk, though I don't think
they'd oblige.

Now I take my touring bike, which has an Abus Granit on the frame, and
attach it to some railings outside, which I feel is more secure (or am I
risk compensating again?).

--
congokid
Good restaurants in London? Number one on Google
http://congokid.com

congokid said:

One alternative
was to ask the staff to keep it behind their desk, though I don't think
they'd oblige.

I ask people to do that all the time and never once had an objection but
plenty of curious questions

Tony

Bob Downie Bob_news@downie-geo.#n0spam#co.uk said:

Quoted message said:

Why would it be less of a target? Even if the person doing the stealing
isn't aware that it can't be ridden, it may still get stolen. A lot of the
time theft is the result of opportunity. Having a heavy U-lock on it may
deter a lot of would be bike thieves from bothering. Having a non-obvious
theft deferent would be ineffective, IME.

Quoted message said:

In the real world you want to get off your bike for 2 minutes to buy a
paper. Locking it can be one pain in the [censored] (assuming there is
anything to lock it to and you are carrying your 2kg U-lock).

Quoted message said:

All else being equal, if there is an unattended bike which you cannot
ride next to one you can, odds are that the one you can ride will be
stolen.

Quoted message said:

It should be simple to implement an integral locking system in a folding
bike so why not. Its far from a perfect security measure but why not
add it anyway?

It would have to be bloody obvious to the clouded vision of the usual
deranged thief. I once fitted one of those wheel locks that fit beside
the brakes and thrust a bar through the spokes to stop the wheel going
round, with the idea that it would be handy for just popping into a
shop kind of stops. Withing a few weeks of occassional use My bike was
once carried away about 50 yards by a thief who then gave up and
abandoned it, and another time suffered a damaged spoke.

I decided to give up the lock before my bike suffered the "thief's
revenge" of having my wheels stomped out of shape.

I had similar difficulties on a motorcycle whn using a non-obvious
lock. In that case I put a notice on the petrol tank explaining
things. Fortunately these days most thieves can read.
--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Bob Downie said:

As a recent purchaser of a Brompton I couldn't agree more. It may not
stop it getting nicked but it would make the bike less of a target.

Just unscrew one or both of the clamps completely and take them away
with you.

(Though mine never leaves my sight or the inside of a locked room.)

Colin

Chris Malcolm wrote:
[

[big snip]
Fortunately these days most thieves can read.

Maybe, but it might not be sensible to bet on it
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,504540,00.html

--
Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap

JLB wrote:
|| Chris Malcolm wrote:
|| [
||
|| [big snip]
|| Fortunately these days most thieves can read.
||
|| Maybe, but it might not be sensible to bet on it
|| http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,504540,00.html

Which, to some degree, explains why they steal.

tomjw said:

I was going to buy a Dahon - they are nice bikes and it was nice to ride
but the one I tried didn't fold up small enough or quickly enough. It
is a bike that folds rather than a proper folding bike. The salesman
said that the Brompton is best because it folds small and quickly. I
took his advice and I don't regret it. It is too heavy to carry really
far but it is no exaggeration that it will fold in 15 seconds and is
very small. I just take it into shops with me. I don't carry a lock
with it. If I had the Dahon I would carry a U lock and a cable to
thread through everything - shoudln't be too much of a problem.

Depends on your needs. If you can live with a bike that fits in the
trunk (boot) of your car, can be packed in a suitcase, or will fit under
your desk, a Dahon is fine, and the newer Dahons ride better, have a
better gearing range, are lighter, and are less expensive, than a
Brompton. OTOH, the Brompton folds small enough to be convenient to
carry into stores. The best solution is to have both. I went with the
Taiwanese made Brompton, even though it isn't quite as good as the UK
version, it is still fine, and was only $235 for an L3-T (this is
essentially an L3 but with a rack, and includes the carrying bag,
folding pedal, and pump). Unfortunately, Brompton no longer licenses
Neobike, and the Neobike people were jailed for infringing on Dahon's
patents, so they are no longer produced.

"http://www.bicycleretailer.com/bicycleretailer/headlines/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1465672"
"http://www.dahon.com/dahonnews3.htm"

Quoted message said:

I forwarded your suggestion on to the VP of Dahon (and son of the
founder), since he'd be a better person to answer this than the UK
sales office. If he answers me, I'll post the reply, but he may send
you an e-mail directly. He's a really good guy, I'd be surprised if he
doesn't respond.

I got a reply from the VP of Dahon, hopefully Elisa got the same e-mail.
No real surprises....

"Thanks for your feedback. That's a good idea but you know, if you left
your bike folded somewhere, locked with such a mechanism and nothing
else, somebody would still steal your bike. They would get home and have
trouble using the bike but your bike would still be gone. So you'd still
need to lock your bike to something solid, leaving you in the same
situation as before - needing a heavy lock.

With a bike like the Impulse P21, the reality is that you just need to
take it with you or at the very least put it in a storage locker or closet.

Happy cycling!"

..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In the real world you want to get off your bike for 2 minutes to buy a
paper. Locking it can be one pain in the [censored] (assuming there is
anything to lock it to and you are carrying your 2kg U-lock).

Or a 1.2kg hardened chain; proof against even determined (Amsterdam)
bike thiefs, easier to carry, and much easier to attach your Brommie
to a lamppost with.

Mark van Gorkom.