IMBA, what are you doing?

Quoted message said:

"freeriding opportunities on public land" Right.

Very funny. Ha ha.

Sucks to be you, we've got a nice little spot that the city lets us play on. We can't build anything
but it's an abandoned quarry so there are lots of natural features to play on. The city even works
with us to solve the occasional complaint that other park users may have.

"kantspel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sucks to be you, we've got a nice little spot that the city lets us play on. We can't build
anything but it's an abandoned quarry so there are lots of natural features to play on. The city
even works with us to solve the occasional complaint that other park users may have.

Sucks to be me? Why would you say something like that? Riding in a quarry is not mountainbiking. As
a matter of fact, I don't even know what kind of riding that is. Its great that you have a city that
works with you, but does the city put its efforts into trail maintenance of "real" mountain bike
trails and multi-use trails?

- CA-G

Can-Am Girls Kick Ass!

Carla A-G said:

"kantspel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sucks to be you, we've got a nice little spot that the city lets us play on. We can't build
anything but it's an abandoned quarry so there are lots of natural features to play on. The city
even works with us to solve the occasional complaint that other park users may have.

Sucks to be me? Why would you say something like that?

Probably a good thing you don't agree. That would be ~Travis-like and would surprise me
coming from you!

I guess I'd want to know more. IMBA needs to be pragmatic or they will be ignored. Since we know
people will freeride, maybe it makes sense to have designated areas for it. The challenge is finding
those areas. A place like a quarry seems ideal. It's already pretty much destroyed, so what the harm
in letting dewds throw themselves off things most of the rest of us would have the sense to avoid?
But the big thing here is what public land. Areas that are already trashed would be OK with me.
Maybe it will pull those freeriders off the land they shouldn't be riding on. Tough issue either
way. It will be interesting to see what comes of this.

Matt

In "]news:[email hidden],
Carla A-G <[email hidden]> typed:

Quoted message said:

"freeriding opportunities on public land"

Right.

Very funny. Ha ha.

dropmac.web.aplus.netview.phpOpen ↗

- CA-G

Can-Am Girls Kick Ass!

????

That's what I'm working toward in Richmond.

The program's goal is to speed the development of freeriding opportunities on public land. Grants
will be used for a variety of purposes, including gaining land manager approval, addressing
liability concerns, trail and stunt construction, trailhead kiosks and signage, and freeride
organization building. "

"Carla A-G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"freeriding opportunities on public land"

Right.

Very funny. Ha ha.

dropmac.web.aplus.netview.phpOpen ↗

Oh, lord. Here we go again. Yet another "Freeriding isn't real Mountain Biking" argument. Freeriders
deserve the same opportunities to ride, and access to land as other off-road riders do. Frankly,
considering the number of freeriders (and the sale of freeride-type bikes), it's about time the IMBA
started working with them in a more constructive fashion.

And no, I am not a freerider in any way, shape, or form. I'm just an old fashioned XC/Trail
type of guy.

Carla A-G said:

"kantspel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sucks to be you, we've got a nice little spot that the city lets us play on. We can't build
anything but it's an abandoned quarry so there are lots of natural features to play on. The city
even works with us to solve the occasional complaint that other park users may have.

Sucks to be me? Why would you say something like that?

I thought you were alluding that freeriding on public land couldn't happen, now me thinks you meant
that it shouldn't happen. Bad communication on my part, my bad.

Quoted message said:

Riding in a quarry is not mountainbiking. As a matter of fact, I don't even know what kind of
riding that is.

I'd love to hear what your definition of mountain biking is, I always thought that if it involved
knobby tires, dirt, and fun then was close enough. The quarry I'm reffering to has been abandoned
for quite a few decades and is now plesantly wooded but the terrain is all goofy. It's really small
but tucked away in a very urban environment. It's a true gem and I doubt many cities have anything
to compare it to. No it's not a mountain and you aren't going to cover a lot of miles in any kind of
hurry, but there's dirt, trees, and some of the most technical trails you'll find anywhere.

Quoted message said:

Its great that you have a city that works with you, but does the city put its efforts into trail
maintenance of "real" mountain bike trails and multi-use trails?

"real" trails, oh gawd you are spoiled. Around here we take what we can get (considering the usable
land around here we get quite a bit) and dammit we have a lot of fun on it. Isn't that what matters?

MattB said:

Carla A-G said:

"kantspel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sucks to be you, we've got a nice little spot that the city lets us play on. We can't build
anything but it's an abandoned quarry so there are lots of natural features to play on. The city
even works with us to solve the occasional complaint that other park users may have.

Sucks to be me? Why would you say something like that?

Probably a good thing you don't agree. That would be ~Travis-like and would surprise me coming
from you!

I guess I'd want to know more. IMBA needs to be pragmatic or they will be ignored. Since we know
people will freeride, maybe it makes sense to have designated areas for it. The challenge is
finding those areas. A place like a quarry seems ideal. It's already pretty much destroyed, so
what the harm in letting dewds throw themselves off things most of the rest of us would have the
sense to avoid? But the big thing here is what public land. Areas that are already trashed would
be OK with me. Maybe it will pull those freeriders off the land they shouldn't be riding on. Tough
issue either way. It will be interesting to see what comes of this.

Matt

The thing I've noticed about a lot of dedicated "freeriding" or dirtjumping spots is that they don't
usually take up all that much land. Sure they really tear the place up (relitive to a normal
singletrack) but usually they can get their fill out of a relitivly small area cause most of em
don't want to drag their beasts very far. Of course my experience has been in the southeast and
midwest and it could be much different elsewhere.

We had actually considered persuing one of these grants, but couldn't really think of anything to
spend the money on other than a sign or two and perhaps a leaf blower. We aren't allowed to bring in
any man made materials into our park so it limits the size and number of the stunts. The core group
prefers it because it helps to keep a low profile which keeps the neighbors happy (it's smack dab in
the middle of an urban residental hood), plus most of us aren't into the "big stuff". Our style
could probably be best described as rolling trials.

Carla A-G said:

Riding in a quarry is not mountainbiking.

Yep

Quoted message said:

As a matter of fact, I don't even know what kind of riding that is.

Its FREERIDING! I think the IMBA is doing the right thing by supporting this (from a "moral support"
standpoint), but doing the wrong thing in being an active participant. They SHOULD just be saying
"well that sounds like a great project, but we represent mountain biking, not freeriding."

Its not just semantics - if people see kids dirt jumping in some local lot and think that's
"mountain biking", how receptive will they be to allowing mountain biking on the trails?

--
-BB- To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail address, at least)

"kantspel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Carla A-G said:

"kantspel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

I thought you were alluding that freeriding on public land couldn't happen, now me thinks you
meant that it shouldn't happen. Bad communication on my part, my bad.

Doesn't matter to me whether it does or doesn't happen, either way it won't affect me.

Quoted message said:

I'd love to hear what your definition of mountain biking is, I always thought that if it involved
knobby tires, dirt, and fun then was close enough.

I have a mod trials bike that has knobby tires and its ridden in natural terrain like rocks and
boulders and the dirt that's in between, but I don't consider it to be mountain biking.

Quoted message said:

"real" trails, oh gawd you are spoiled. Around here we take what we can get (considering the
usable land around here we get quite a bit) and dammit we have a lot of fun on it. Isn't that what
matters?

That's my opinion, ride what you have. West Coast people make fun of us East Coaster's because we
don't have huge mountains and elevation in our trails, but what we do have is technical, rocky,
rooty, twisty tight trails. We enjoy what we have and we ride it with the same joy and enthusiasm.

- CA-G

Can-Am Girls Kick Ass!

Quoted post said:

[ We enjoy what we have and we ride it with the same joy and enthusiasm.

- CA-G

Can-Am Girls Kick Ass!

That's what we do here in the Deep South - Alabama, USA!

Tmax1 <Jerry>

"MattB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Carla A-G said:

"kantspel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sucks to be you, we've got a nice little spot that the city lets us play on. We can't build
anything but it's an abandoned quarry so there are lots of natural features to play on. The
city even works with us to solve the occasional complaint that other park users may have.

Sucks to be me? Why would you say something like that?

Probably a good thing you don't agree. That would be ~Travis-like and

would

Quoted message said:

surprise me coming from you!

I guess I'd want to know more. IMBA needs to be pragmatic or they will be ignored. Since we know
people will freeride, maybe it makes sense to have designated areas for it. The challenge is
finding those areas. A place

like

Quoted message said:

a quarry seems ideal. It's already pretty much destroyed, so what the harm in letting dewds throw
themselves off things most of the rest of us would have the sense to avoid? But the big thing here
is what public land. Areas that are already trashed would be OK with me. Maybe it will pull those
freeriders off the land they shouldn't be riding on. Tough issue either way. It will be
interesting to see what comes of this.

Matt

The Lunch Loop area is getting a "Free Ride" trail. The BLM has mapped out a location for the trail
and construction is going to be completed by this years FFTF. I don't think we need a free ride area
there. It would be better suited elsewhere. Say goodbye to the singletrack around there. There is
already too much off trail riding that takes place there. For some photos of the area check out
www.gvii.net/hundtoft select the photos page. there are some photos of the area in question.

TJ www.gvii.net/hundtoft

Quoted message said:

That's what we do here in the Deep South - Alabama, USA!

Tmax1 <Jerry>

Hey,

Where are you in AL? Anywhere near b'ham?

-Andrew

kantspel <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I'd love to hear what your definition of mountain biking is

How about if we provide a photo?

angelfire.comme.jpgOpen ↗

That "freeriding" [censored] is an illegitimate [censored] of real mountain biking. If hypocrIMBA wants to
try and make it legitimate, that's their problem. If they think that supporting it will help them in
the long run, I think they are sadly mistaken. Supporting it will alienate them further from
legitimate mountain bikers and if they think the "freeriders" are going to sacrifice money to donate
to them instead of using their money to replace broken bicycles and components, they are only
kidding themselves.

JD

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Andrew Thorne
>That's what we do here in the Deep South - Alabama, USA!

Quoted message said:

Tmax1 <Jerry>

Hey,

Where are you in AL? Anywhere near b'ham?

-Andrew

Live in Montevallo, 30 miles south of Birmingham. Work in Birmingham.

...and you? Are you in Alabama?

Tmax1<Jerry>

TJ wrote: <snip>

Quoted message said:

The Lunch Loop area is getting a "Free Ride" trail. The BLM has mapped out a location for the
trail and construction is going to be completed by this years FFTF. I don't think we need a free
ride area there. It would be better suited elsewhere. Say goodbye to the singletrack around there.
There is already too much off trail riding that takes place there. For some photos of the area
check out www.gvii.net/hundtoft select the photos page. there are some photos of the area in
question.

TJ www.gvii.net/hundtoft

Well that sucks. My point was that people will freeride weather it's sanctioned or not. So why not
try and regulate it to some extent and have designated areas so they don't go and tear up everything
(I know some will ignore the rules, but some will follow them). I've often wondered about decisions
made by IMBA and this is yet another example. Places like quarrys and urban vacant lots seem ideal
for it because they are already so heavily impacted. I guess the key is which areas get designated
as freeride areas, and weather or not the riders will use the designated areas instead of the more
sensitive places that haven't been trashed yet. A tough issue from any angle.

Matt

Quoted message said:

That "freeriding" [censored] is an illegitimate [censored] of real mountain biking.

"Real" mountain biking, give me a break, why don't we just change it to "JD" biking. Define "real",
does it have to have a mountain, is there a specified trail length, do we need certain parts, what
kinds of obstacles are approved, is there a dress code, what's the minimum accepted speed, do we
need a min VO2 max?

You old farts need to get off your high horse and realize that the sport doesn't revolve around your
preferred way of getting around. Not everyone wants to move to mountains of an approved elevation,
buy boutique brand rigid single speeds, wear lycra, and take wannabe postcard photos just so they
can scoff at anyone who dares think that they too are "real" mountain bikers. Like it or not,
"freeriding" will always be seen as mountain biking to the regular joe, if we want to protect the
image of our sport, regardless of how we choose to do it, we'll need to work with these new kids and
teach them how to get along with the powers that be.

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 11:53:50 -0700, "MattB" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

TJ wrote: <snip>

Quoted message said:

The Lunch Loop area is getting a "Free Ride" trail. The BLM has mapped out a location for the
trail and construction is going to be completed by this years FFTF. I don't think we need a free
ride area there. It would be better suited elsewhere. Say goodbye to the singletrack around
there. There is already too much off trail riding that takes place there. For some photos of the
area check out www.gvii.net/hundtoft select the photos page. there are some photos of the area in
question.

Quoted message said:

Well that sucks. My point was that people will freeride weather it's sanctioned or not. So why not
try and regulate it to some extent and have designated areas so they don't go and tear up
everything (I know some will ignore the rules, but some will follow them). I've often wondered
about decisions made by IMBA and this is yet another example. Places like quarrys and urban vacant
lots seem ideal for it because they are already so heavily impacted. I guess the key is which areas
get designated as freeride areas, and weather or not the riders will use the designated areas
instead of the more sensitive places that haven't been trashed yet. A tough issue from any angle.

It really depends upon how "freeride" is being defined.

For some, "freeride" means off-trail riding. Riding that is unsustainable and gives mountain bikers
a black eye with land managers. The idiots that "freeride" like that are the core of the problem
with the term.

The other use of "freeride," which IMBA and others are using is more technical trails using natural
features, as well as man made jumps, drops, etc. ( made using existing rocks and dirt). The key
difference between these trails and the kiddy "freeirde" trails which typically slash straight down
the fall line is that these types of "freeride" trails are sustainable.

Now dragging scrap lumber into the desert to build ladder bridges so that people have a "freeride"
NORTH SHORE DOOD trail still sounds stupid to me but I'm all for IMBA building trails that are more
aggresive/technical/challenging rather than some of the 4' sidewalk-type trails that have been built
in the past under the auspices of IMBA guidelines.

p.s. TJ, if you didn't brew such great beer I would sic my gaggle of attorneys on you for swiping
those pics.

kantspel said:

You old farts need to get off your high horse and realize that the sport doesn't revolve around
your preferred way of getting around. Not everyone wants to move to mountains of an approved
elevation, buy boutique brand rigid single speeds, wear lycra, and take wannabe postcard photos
just so they can scoff at anyone who dares think that they too are "real" mountain bikers.

Its not about any of that. Its just about riding TRAILS, and taking care of those trails.

Making huge piles dirt and wood just to jump off of them, it is not.

--
-BB- To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail address, at least)

P e t e F a g e r l i n said:

MattB said:

TJ wrote: <snip>

Quoted message said:

The Lunch Loop area is getting a "Free Ride" trail. The BLM has mapped out a location for the
trail and construction is going to be completed by this years FFTF. I don't think we need a free
ride area there. It would be better suited elsewhere. Say goodbye to the singletrack around
there. There is already too much off trail riding that takes place there. For some photos of the
area check out www.gvii.net/hundtoft select the photos page. there are some photos of the area
in question.

Quoted message said:

Well that sucks. My point was that people will freeride weather it's sanctioned or not. So why
not try and regulate it to some extent and have designated areas so they don't go and tear up
everything (I know some will ignore the rules, but some will follow them). I've often wondered
about decisions made by IMBA and this is yet another example. Places like quarrys and urban
vacant lots seem ideal for it because they are already so heavily impacted. I guess the key is
which areas get designated as freeride areas, and weather or not the riders will use the
designated areas instead of the more sensitive places that haven't been trashed yet. A tough
issue from any angle.

It really depends upon how "freeride" is being defined.

For some, "freeride" means off-trail riding. Riding that is unsustainable and gives mountain
bikers a black eye with land managers. The idiots that "freeride" like that are the core of the
problem with the term.

The other use of "freeride," which IMBA and others are using is more technical trails using
natural features, as well as man made jumps, drops, etc. ( made using existing rocks and dirt).
The key difference between these trails and the kiddy "freeirde" trails which typically slash
straight down the fall line is that these types of "freeride" trails are sustainable.

Now dragging scrap lumber into the desert to build ladder bridges so that people have a "freeride"
NORTH SHORE DOOD trail still sounds stupid to me but I'm all for IMBA building trails that are
more aggresive/technical/challenging rather than some of the 4' sidewalk-type trails that have
been built in the past under the auspices of IMBA guidelines.

Right. So if IMBA makes designated "freeride trails" (yes, a bit oxymoronic) and dewds go and ride
them and call themselves freeriders, then great. Maybe it will keep them off the stuff they
shouldn't be tearing up (anywhere they ride where there isn't a trail or route established).

Matt