Mountain Bikes · Public discussion

IMBA Tries to Justify Mountain Biking with Junk Science

Mike Vandeman · 2004-04-01T16:40:32+00:00

Anyone who bothers to read these "studies" will find that they actually prove the OPPOSITE of what they CLAIM to prove! They actually examine only damage PER MILE. Since mountain bikers typically travel several times as far as hikers (try HIKING 25-50 miles in a day!), it follows FROM THEIR OWN RESEARCH that mountain bikers have several times the impact of hikers. They also don't test mountain biking under normal conditions: they simply roll passively down a gently sloping hill -- no acceleration, no turns, no braking, all of which would apply shear (horizontal) forces to the ground. In addition, almost all studies ignore impacts on wildlife. As far as I know, every one of these "studies" was done by (surprize, surprize) a mountain biker. Besides, they are irrelevant, because the harm done by mountain biking is not related to the harm done by other activities, such as hiking. The damage is the same, regardless of what hikers or anyone else is doing! Mike Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:14:14 -0800 (PST) From: newsalerts- [email hidden] Subject: Google News Alert - mountain biking PRESS RELEASE - New Science Review Indicates that Mountain Biking ... Velonews - USA IMBA has released a comprehensive review of scientific studies that examine the impacts of mountain biking on trails, vegetation, and wildlife. ... FOREST Service decision will make trail changes Reno Gazette Journal - Reno,NV,USA ... But mountain biking instructor and former racer Max Jones III of Carson City said Tuesday the management plan is fair and necessary. ... See all stories on this topic: INTREPID Teens Wanted for Extreme Adventures Scoop.co.nz (press release) - New Zealand ... These include mountain biking, rock climbing, abseiling, or flying fox, water confidence course, raft building and kayaking and sailing. ... EXPO will offer seminars for novices and information on ... San Jose Mercury News - San Jose,CA,USA ... My generation was single-focused. Now you've got a younger generation that integrates fly fishing with other pursuits, such as mountain biking. ... This daily-once News Alert is brought to you by Google News (BETA)... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Create another News Alert: http://www.google.com/newsalerts?hl=en Try Google News: http://news.google.com/ === I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Started by Mike Vandeman · 1 April 2004 · Last activity 10 April 2004 · 30 posts · 1,911 views

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Original section: Mountain Bikes
Published: 1 April 2004
Last activity: 10 April 2004
Original author: Mike Vandeman
Posts: 30
Discussion status: Public discussion
Total views: 1,911
Views / 30 days: 0
Topics: Mountain biking

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Original post
Mike Vandeman
Archived post

1 April 2004, 16:40 UTC #1

Anyone who bothers to read these "studies" will find that
they actually prove the OPPOSITE of what they CLAIM to
prove! They actually examine only damage PER
MILE. Since mountain bikers typically travel several times
as far as hikers (try HIKING 25-50 miles in a day!),
it follows FROM THEIR OWN RESEARCH that mountain
bikers have several times the impact of hikers. They
also don't test mountain biking under normal
conditions: they simply roll passively down a gently
sloping hill -- no acceleration, no turns, no braking,
all of which would apply shear (horizontal) forces to
the ground. In addition, almost all studies ignore
impacts on wildlife. As far as I know, every one of
these "studies" was done by (surprize, surprize) a
mountain biker. Besides, they are irrelevant, because
the harm done by mountain biking is not related to the
harm done by other activities, such as hiking. The
damage is the same, regardless of what hikers or
anyone else is doing!
Mike
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:14:14 -0800 (PST) From: newsalerts-
[email hidden] Subject: Google News Alert -
mountain biking
PRESS RELEASE - New Science Review Indicates that Mountain
Biking ... Velonews - USA IMBA has released a comprehensive
review of scientific studies that examine the impacts of
mountain biking on trails, vegetation, and wildlife. ... <h-
ttp://www.velonews.com/tech/research/articles/5803.0.html>
FOREST Service decision will make trail changes Reno Gazette
Journal - Reno,NV,USA ... But mountain biking instructor and
former racer Max Jones III of Carson City said Tuesday the
management plan is fair and necessary. ... <rgj.-rgj.-
com/news/stories/html/2004/03/30/67423.php?sp1=rgj&sp2=News-
&sp3=Local+News&sp5=RGJ.com&sp6=news&sp7=local_news&jsmulti-
tag=news.rgj.com/news/local> See all stories on this topic:
<http://news.google.com/news?ie=utf8&-" rel="ugc nofollow noopener">news.google.comhttpnews
oe=utf8&persist=1&num=30&hl=en&client=google&newsclusterurl-
=rgj.com67423.php%
3Fsp1%3Drgj%26sp2%3DNews%26sp3%3DLocal%2BNews%26sp5%3DRGJ.c-
om%26sp6%3Dnews%26sp7%3Dlocal_news%26jsmultitag%3Dnews.rgj.-
com/news/local>
INTREPID Teens Wanted for Extreme Adventures Scoop.co.nz
(press release) - New Zealand ... These include mountain
biking, rock climbing, abseiling, or flying fox, water
confidence course, raft building and kayaking and sailing.
... <http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/AK0403/S00261.htm>
EXPO will offer seminars for novices and information on ...
San Jose Mercury News - San Jose,CA,USA ... My generation
was single-focused. Now you've got a younger generation that
integrates fly fishing with other pursuits, such as mountain
biking. ... <mercurynews.comspo
rts/8321298.htm>
This daily-once News Alert is brought to you by Google
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===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
to humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the
previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
construction.)
home.pacbell.netmjvande

Report
Michael Paul
Archived post

1 April 2004, 17:20 UTC #2

Junk Science? kind of Pot calling the kettle black coming
from you don't you think?
of course, us mere uneducated fools would never think that
your scientific methods have ever been called junk. What
with the fact that you aren't even an expert in the field,
that you never provide any actual first hand research, that
you never actually name your sources, and so on.
"Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Anyone who bothers to read these "studies" will find that
they actually

prove
Quoted message said:
the OPPOSITE of what they CLAIM to prove! They actually
examine only

damage PER
Quoted message said:
MILE. Since mountain bikers typically travel several times
as far as

hikers (try
Quoted message said:
HIKING 25-50 miles in a day!), it follows FROM THEIR OWN
RESEARCH that

mountain
Quoted message said:
bikers have several times the impact of hikers. They also
don't test

mountain
Quoted message said:
biking under normal conditions: they simply roll passively
down a gently

sloping
Quoted message said:
hill -- no acceleration, no turns, no braking, all of
which would apply

shear
Quoted message said:
(horizontal) forces to the ground. In addition, almost all
studies ignore impacts on wildlife. As far as I know,
every one of these "studies" was

done by
Quoted message said:
(surprize, surprize) a mountain biker. Besides, they are
irrelevant,

because the
Quoted message said:
harm done by mountain biking is not related to the harm
done by other activities, such as hiking. The damage is
the same, regardless of what

hikers or
Quoted message said:
anyone else is doing!
Mike
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:14:14 -0800 (PST) From: newsalerts-
[email hidden] Subject: Google News Alert -
mountain biking
PRESS RELEASE - New Science Review Indicates that Mountain
Biking ... Velonews - USA IMBA has released a
comprehensive review of scientific studies that

examine
Quoted message said:
the impacts of mountain biking on trails, vegetation, and
wildlife. ... <velonews.comarti
cles/5803.0.html>
FOREST Service decision will make trail changes Reno
Gazette Journal - Reno,NV,USA ... But mountain biking
instructor and former racer Max Jones III of

Carson
Quoted message said:
City said Tuesday the management plan is fair and
necessary. ...

<rgj.com67423.php
sp1=rgj&sp2=News& sp3=Local+News&sp5=RGJ.com&sp6=news&sp7=l-
ocal_news&jsmultitag=news.rgj.com/n ews/local>
Quoted message said:
See all stories on this topic:

<http://news.google.com/news?ie=utf8&-" rel="ugc nofollow noopener">news.google.comhttpnews
oe=utf8&persist=1 &num=30&hl=en&client=google&newsclusterur-
l=rgj.comh tml/2004/03/30/67423.ph-
p%3Fsp1%3Drgj%26sp2%3DNews%26sp3%3DLocal%2BNews%26sp5
%3DRGJ.com%26sp6%3Dnews%26sp7%3Dlocal_news%26jsmultitag%3Dn-
%ews.rgj.com/news/
local>
Quoted message said:

INTREPID Teens Wanted for Extreme Adventures Scoop.co.nz
(press release) - New Zealand ... These include mountain
biking, rock climbing, abseiling, or flying fox, water
confidence course, raft building and kayaking and sailing.
...
<http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/AK0403/S00261.htm>
EXPO will offer seminars for novices and information on
... San Jose Mercury News - San Jose,CA,USA ... My
generation was single-focused. Now you've got a younger
generation that integrates fly fishing with other
pursuits, such as mountain biking. ... <mercur-mercur-
ynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/8321298.htm>
This daily-once News Alert is brought to you by Google
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- - - - - Create another News Alert:
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===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-
limits to humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent
the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
construction.)
home.pacbell.netmjvande

Report
Steve Curtiss
Archived post

1 April 2004, 21:40 UTC #3

--------------54FA1AFA344358453D96A9B1
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mike Vandeman said:
Anyone who bothers to read these "studies" will find that
they actually prove the OPPOSITE of what they CLAIM to
prove! They actually examine only damage PER
MILE. Since mountain bikers typically travel several times
as far as hikers (try HIKING 25-50 miles in a day!),
it follows FROM THEIR OWN RESEARCH that mountain
bikers have several times the impact of hikers. They
also don't test mountain biking under normal
conditions: they simply roll passively down a gently
sloping hill -- no acceleration, no turns, no
braking, all of which would apply shear (horizontal)
forces to the ground.
How do you know? Have you been present to confirm your
opinion? You claim it as fact, but how do you know their
methodology or test conditions?
Quoted message said:
In addition, almost all studies ignore impacts on
wildlife. As far as I know, every one of these "studies"
was done by (surprize, surprize) a mountain biker.
Again: "as far as you know" ?
Quoted message said:
Besides, they are irrelevant, because the harm done by
mountain biking is not related to the harm done by other
activities, such as hiking. The damage is the same,
regardless of what hikers or anyone else is doing!
Finally, you've said something! "The damage is the same,
regardless of what hikers or anyone else is doing!" So, the
impact of off road cycling and hiking is the same!
SC
Quoted message said:

Mike
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:14:14 -0800 (PST) From: newsalerts-
[email hidden] Subject: Google News Alert -
mountain biking
PRESS RELEASE - New Science Review Indicates that Mountain
Biking ... Velonews - USA IMBA has released a
comprehensive review of scientific studies that examine
the impacts of mountain biking on trails, vegetation, and
wildlife. ... <velonews.comarti
cles/5803.0.html>
FOREST Service decision will make trail changes Reno
Gazette Journal - Reno,NV,USA ... But mountain biking
instructor and former racer Max Jones III of Carson City
said Tuesday the management plan is fair and necessary.
... <rgj.com6742
3.php?sp1=rgj&sp2=News&sp3=Local+News&sp5=RGJ.com&sp6=new-
s&sp7=local_news&jsmultitag=news.rgj.com/news/local> See
all stories on this topic: <http://-" rel="ugc nofollow noopener">news.google.comhttpnews.google.comhttp
news.google.com/news?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&persist=1&num=30&hl=-
en&client=google&newsclusterurl=rgj.coms
tories/html/2004/03/30/67423.php%3Fsp1%3Drgj%26sp2%3DNews-
%26sp3%3DLocal%2BNews%26sp5%3DRGJ.com%26sp6%3Dnews%26sp7%-
3Dlocal_news%26jsmultitag%3Dnews.rgj.com/news INTREPID
Teens Wanted for Extreme Adventures Scoop.co.nz (press
release) - New Zealand ... These include mountain biking,
rock climbing, abseiling, or flying fox, water confidence
course, raft building and kayaking and sailing. ...
<http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/AK0403/S00261.htm>
EXPO will offer seminars for novices and information on
... San Jose Mercury News - San Jose,CA,USA ... My
generation was single-focused. Now you've got a younger
generation that integrates fly fishing with other
pursuits, such as mountain biking. ... <mercur-mercur-
ynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/8321298.htm>
This daily-once News Alert is brought to you by Google
News (BETA)...
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - Create another News Alert:
google.comnewsalerts
Try Google News: news.google.comnews.google.com
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-
limits to humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent
the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
construction.)
home.pacbell.netmjvande
--------------54FA1AFA344358453D96A9B1 Content-Type:
text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0
transitional//en"> <html>
Mike Vandeman wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE>Anyone who
bothers to read these "studies" will find that they
actually prove the OPPOSITE of what they CLAIM to
prove! They actually examine only damage PER MILE.
Since mountain bikers typically travel several times as
far as hikers (try HIKING 25-50 miles in a day!), it
follows FROM THEIR OWN RESEARCH that mountain bikers
have several times the impact of hikers. They also don't
test mountain biking under normal conditions: they
simply roll passively down a gently sloping hill --
no acceleration, no turns, no braking, all of which would
apply shear (horizontal) forces to the
ground.</blockquote> How do you know? Have you been
present to confirm your opinion? You claim it as fact,
but how do you know their methodology or test conditions?
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>In addition, almost all studies
ignore impacts on wildlife. As far as I know, every
one of these "studies" was done by (surprize,
surprize) a mountain biker.</blockquote> Again: "as far
as you know" ? <blockquote TYPE=CITE>Besides, they are
irrelevant, because the harm done by mountain biking
is not related to the harm done by other activities,
such as hiking. The damage is the same, regardless of
what hikers or anyone else is doing!
 </blockquote> Finally, you've said something!
"The damage is the same, regardless of what hikers or
anyone else is doing!" So, the impact of off road
cycling and hiking is the same!
<q>SC <blockquote TYPE=CITE> Mike
<r>Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:14:14 -0800 (PST) From: newsalerts-
[email hidden] Subject: Google News Alert -
mountain biking
<s>PRESS RELEASE - New Science Review Indicates that
Mountain Biking ... Velonews - USA IMBA has
released a comprehensive review of scientific studies
that examine the impacts of mountain biking on
trails, vegetation, and wildlife. ... <<a href="h-
ttp://www.velonews.com/tech/research/articles/5803.0.htm-
l">velonews.com5803.0
.html</a>>
<t>FOREST Service decision will make trail changes Reno
Gazette Journal - Reno,NV,USA ... But mountain biking
instructor and former racer Max Jones III of Carson
 City said Tuesday the management plan is fair and
necessary. ... <<a href="rgj.comrgj.com
stories/html/2004/03/30/67423.php?sp1=rgj&sp2=News&sp3=L-
ocal+News&sp5=RGJ.com&sp6=news&sp7=local_news&jsmultitag-
=news.rgj.com/news/local">rgj.comstorie
s/html/2004/03/30/67423.php?sp1=rgj&sp2=News&sp3-
=Local+News&sp5=RGJ.com&sp6=news&sp7=local_n-
ews&jsmultitag=news.rgj.com/news/local</a>> See
all stories on this topic: <<a href="news.-news.-
google.comhttp://news.google.com/news?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&pe-
rsist=1&num=30&hl=en&client=google&newsclusterurl=http:/-
/www.rgj.com/news/stories/html/2004/03/30/67423.php%3Fsp-
1%3Drgj%26sp2%3DNews%26sp3%3DLocal%2BNews%26sp5%3DRGJ.co-
m%26sp6%3Dnews%26sp7%3Dlocal_news%26jsmultitag%3Dnews.rg-
j.com/news/local">http://news.goog-" rel="ugc nofollow noopener">news.google.comhttpnews.goog
le.com/news?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&persist=1&num=30-
&hl=en&client=google&newsclusterurl=w-w-
ww.rgj.com/news/stories/html/2004/03/30/67423.php%3Fsp1%-
3Drgj%26sp2%3DNews%26sp3%3DLocal%2BNews%26sp5%3DRGJ.com%-
26sp6%3Dnews%26sp7%3Dlocal_news%26jsmultitag%3Dnews.rgj.-
com/news</a> <a href="http://n-" rel="ugc nofollow noopener">news.google.comhttpn
ews.google.com/news?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&persist=1&num=30&hl=-
en&client=google&newsclusterurl=rgj.comrgj.com
stories/html/2004/03/30/67423.php%3Fsp1%3Drgj%26sp2%3DNe-
ws%26sp3%3DLocal%2BNews%26sp5%3DRGJ.com%26sp6%3Dnews%26s-
p7%3Dlocal_news%26jsmultitag%3Dnews.rgj.com/news/local">-
INTREPID Teens Wanted for Extreme Adventures</a> <a
href="http://news.google.com/news?-" rel="ugc nofollow noopener">news.google.comhttpnews
ie=utf8&oe=utf8&persist=1&num=30&hl=en&client=google&new-
sclusterurl=rgj.com03
/30/67423.php%3Fsp1%3Drgj%26sp2%3DNews%26sp3%3DLocal%2BN-
ews%26sp5%3DRGJ.com%26sp6%3Dnews%26sp7%3Dlocal_news%26js-
multitag%3Dnews.rgj.com/news/local">Scoop.co.nz (press
release) - New Zealand</a> <a href="news.goog-news.goog-
le.comhttp://news.google.com/news?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&persis-
t=1&num=30&hl=en&client=google&newsclusterurl=www-www-
.rgj.com/news/stories/html/2004/03/30/67423.php%3Fsp1%3D-
rgj%26sp2%3DNews%26sp3%3DLocal%2BNews%26sp5%3DRGJ.com%26-
sp6%3Dnews%26sp7%3Dlocal_news%26jsmultitag%3Dnews.rgj.co-
m/news/local">... These include mountain biking, rock
climbing, abseiling, or flying</a> <a href="n-n-
ews.google.comhttp://news.google.com/news?ie=utf8&oe=utf-
8&persist=1&num=30&hl=en&client=google&newsclusterurl=ht-
tp://www.rgj.com/news/stories/html/2004/03/30/67423.php%-
3Fsp1%3Drgj%26sp2%3DNews%26sp3%3DLocal%2BNews%26sp5%3DRG-
J.com%26sp6%3Dnews%26sp7%3Dlocal_news%26jsmultitag%3Dnew-
s.rgj.com/news/local">fox, water confidence course, raft
building and kayaking and sailing.</a> <a href="http-
://news.google.comhttp://news.google.com/news?ie=utf8&oe-
=utf8&persist=1&num=30&hl=en&client=google&newsclusterur-
l=rgj.com67423.
php%3Fsp1%3Drgj%26sp2%3DNews%26sp3%3DLocal%2BNews%26sp5%-
3DRGJ.com%26sp6%3Dnews%26sp7%3Dlocal_news%26jsmultitag%3-
Dnews.rgj.com/news/local">...</a> <a href="ne-ne-
ws.google.comhttp://news.google.com/news?ie=utf8&oe=utf8-
&persist=1&num=30&hl=en&client=google&newsclusterurl=htt-
p://www.rgj.com/news/stories/html/2004/03/30/67423.php%3-
Fsp1%3Drgj%26sp2%3DNews%26sp3%3DLocal%2BNews%26sp5%3DRGJ-
.com%26sp6%3Dnews%26sp7%3Dlocal_news%26jsmultitag%3Dnews-
.rgj.com/news/local"><</a><a href="scoop.c-scoop.c-
o.nz/mason/stories/AK0403/S00261.htm">scoop.c-scoop.c-
o.nz/mason/stories/AK0403/S00261.htm</a>>
EXPO will offer seminars for novices and information on
... San Jose Mercury News - San Jose,CA,USA ...
My generation was single-focused. Now you've got a
younger generation that integrates fly fishing with
other pursuits, such as mountain biking. ...
 <<a href="mercurynews.commercuryn
ews/sports/8321298.htm">mercurynews.comm
ercurynews/sports/8321298.htm</a>>
<v>This daily-once News Alert is brought to you by Google
News (BETA)... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Create another News
Alert: <a href="google.comnewsalerts
en">google.comnewsalerts</a>
<w>Try Google News: <a href="news.google.comnews.google.com">h-
ttp://news.google.com/</a> === I am working on
creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
 humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the
previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
construction.)
<x><a href="home.pacbell.netmjvande">home.pa-home.pa-
cbell.net/mjvande</a></blockquote> </html>
--------------54FA1AFA344358453D96A9B1--

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Brett Jaffee
Archived post

1 April 2004, 23:00 UTC #4

Steve Curtiss <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Besides, they are irrelevant, because the harm done by
mountain biking is not related to the harm done by other
activities, such as hiking. The damage is the same,
regardless of what hikers or anyone else is doing!
Finally, you've said something! "The damage is the same,
regardless of what hikers or anyone else is doing!" So,
the impact of off road cycling and hiking is the same!
BAN EVERYTHING!

Report
Gary S .
Archived post

1 April 2004, 23:40 UTC #5

Brett Jaffee said:
Steve Curtiss <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Besides, they are irrelevant, because the harm done by
mountain biking is not related to the harm done by other
activities, such as hiking. The damage is the same,
regardless of what hikers or anyone else is doing!
Finally, you've said something! "The damage is the same,
regardless of what hikers or anyone else is doing!" So,
the impact of off road cycling and hiking is the same!

BAN EVERYTHING!
That is Mikey's ultimate goal: to ban all recreational use
of the wilderness. Mountain biking is merely his first
priority. Horseback riding, hiking, skiing, and all the resr
come later in his plan. He may try to pit various user
groups against one another, but ultimately he wants to get
rid of all of them.
He also wants all non-native species removed from the
Americas (and, I assume, the rest of the continents)
including humans. Never mind how likely this is to happen.
He wants the human population of the world reduced
dramatically, and most of the world to be his "human free"
habitat. He has little to no regard for humans.
If he was actually capable of accomplishing anything other
than writing letters and Usenet posts, he might actually be
slightly dangerous.
Happy trails, Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence
Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA Please reply to:
garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

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Jeff Strickland
Archived post

2 April 2004, 00:20 UTC #6

The operative principle here is Per Mile. On a per mile
basis, the impact of biking can actually be less than the
impact of hiking. A huge part of the reason is that on a per
mile basis, the bike routes are generally harder surfaces
than the hiking routes. This is not always the case, but it
is generally the case. Hikers tend to prefer softer
surfaces, whereas bikes tend to go for the firm surfaces.
A bike may have 10 adverse impacts per 25 miles, or 2.5 per
mile. A hiker might have 6 adverse impacts in 2 miles, but
that is as far as they go. But in two miles the hiker has
had 3 adverse impacts per mile, where the bike only has 2.5
per mile. Hiking is more detremental on a per mile basis.
The thing you constantly neglect to talk about is that while
on a 25 mile bike route, much of that route is multi use
that involves much more than just bike activity. And, much
of a 25 mile route is of such a condition that it is not
affected by the mere presence of a bike tire. Of the places
where a bike tire is actually a problem, any travel, even on
foot, is a problem.
"Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Anyone who bothers to read these "studies" will find that
they actually

prove
Quoted message said:
the OPPOSITE of what they CLAIM to prove! They actually
examine only

damage PER
Quoted message said:
MILE. Since mountain bikers typically travel several times
as far as

hikers (try
Quoted message said:
HIKING 25-50 miles in a day!), it follows FROM THEIR OWN
RESEARCH that

mountain
Quoted message said:
bikers have several times the impact of hikers. They also
don't test

mountain
Quoted message said:
biking under normal conditions: they simply roll passively
down a gently

sloping
Quoted message said:
hill -- no acceleration, no turns, no braking, all of
which would apply

shear
Quoted message said:
(horizontal) forces to the ground. In addition, almost all
studies ignore impacts on wildlife. As far as I know,
every one of these "studies" was

done by
Quoted message said:
(surprize, surprize) a mountain biker. Besides, they are
irrelevant,

because the
Quoted message said:
harm done by mountain biking is not related to the harm
done by other activities, such as hiking. The damage is
the same, regardless of what

hikers or
Quoted message said:
anyone else is doing!
Mike
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:14:14 -0800 (PST) From: newsalerts-
[email hidden] Subject: Google News Alert -
mountain biking
PRESS RELEASE - New Science Review Indicates that Mountain
Biking ... Velonews - USA IMBA has released a
comprehensive review of scientific studies that

examine
Quoted message said:
the impacts of mountain biking on trails, vegetation, and
wildlife. ... <velonews.comarti
cles/5803.0.html>
FOREST Service decision will make trail changes Reno
Gazette Journal - Reno,NV,USA ... But mountain biking
instructor and former racer Max Jones III of

Carson
Quoted message said:
City said Tuesday the management plan is fair and
necessary. ...

<rgj.com67423.php
sp1=rgj&sp2=News& sp3=Local+News&sp5=RGJ.com&sp6=news&sp7=l-
ocal_news&jsmultitag=news.rgj.com/n ews/local>
Quoted message said:
See all stories on this topic:

<http://news.google.com/news?ie=utf8&-" rel="ugc nofollow noopener">news.google.comhttpnews
oe=utf8&persist=1 &num=30&hl=en&client=google&newsclusterur-
l=rgj.comh tml/2004/03/30/67423.ph-
p%3Fsp1%3Drgj%26sp2%3DNews%26sp3%3DLocal%2BNews%26sp5
%3DRGJ.com%26sp6%3Dnews%26sp7%3Dlocal_news%26jsmultitag%3Dn-
%ews.rgj.com/news/
local>
Quoted message said:

INTREPID Teens Wanted for Extreme Adventures Scoop.co.nz
(press release) - New Zealand ... These include mountain
biking, rock climbing, abseiling, or flying fox, water
confidence course, raft building and kayaking and sailing.
...
<http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/AK0403/S00261.htm>
EXPO will offer seminars for novices and information on
... San Jose Mercury News - San Jose,CA,USA ... My
generation was single-focused. Now you've got a younger
generation that integrates fly fishing with other
pursuits, such as mountain biking. ... <mercur-mercur-
ynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/8321298.htm>
This daily-once News Alert is brought to you by Google
News (BETA)...
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - Create another News Alert:
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===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-
limits to humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent
the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
construction.)
home.pacbell.netmjvande

Report
Desertflea
Archived post

2 April 2004, 09:23 UTC #7

Why in the hell do we keep entertaining Mikey and his
endless drivel with responses?
"Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Anyone who bothers to read these "studies" will find that
they actually

prove
Quoted message said:
the OPPOSITE of what they CLAIM to prove! They actually
examine only

damage PER
Quoted message said:
MILE. Since mountain bikers typically travel several times
as far as

hikers (try
Quoted message said:
HIKING 25-50 miles in a day!), it follows FROM THEIR OWN
RESEARCH that

mountain
Quoted message said:
bikers have several times the impact of hikers. They also
don't test

mountain
Quoted message said:
biking under normal conditions: they simply roll passively
down a gently

sloping
Quoted message said:
hill -- no acceleration, no turns, no braking, all of
which would apply

shear
Quoted message said:
(horizontal) forces to the ground. In addition, almost all
studies ignore impacts on wildlife. As far as I know,
every one of these "studies" was

done by
Quoted message said:
(surprize, surprize) a mountain biker. Besides, they are
irrelevant,

because the
Quoted message said:
harm done by mountain biking is not related to the harm
done by other activities, such as hiking. The damage is
the same, regardless of what

hikers or
Quoted message said:
anyone else is doing!
Mike
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:14:14 -0800 (PST) From: newsalerts-
[email hidden] Subject: Google News Alert -
mountain biking
PRESS RELEASE - New Science Review Indicates that Mountain
Biking ... Velonews - USA IMBA has released a
comprehensive review of scientific studies that

examine
Quoted message said:
the impacts of mountain biking on trails, vegetation, and
wildlife. ... <velonews.comarti
cles/5803.0.html>
FOREST Service decision will make trail changes Reno
Gazette Journal - Reno,NV,USA ... But mountain biking
instructor and former racer Max Jones III of

Carson
Quoted message said:
City said Tuesday the management plan is fair and
necessary. ...

<rgj.com67423.php
sp1=rgj&sp2=News& sp3=Local+News&sp5=RGJ.com&sp6=news&sp7=l-
ocal_news&jsmultitag=news.rgj.com/n ews/local>
Quoted message said:
See all stories on this topic:

<http://news.google.com/news?ie=utf8&-" rel="ugc nofollow noopener">news.google.comhttpnews
oe=utf8&persist=1 &num=30&hl=en&client=google&newsclusterur-
l=rgj.comh tml/2004/03/30/67423.ph-
p%3Fsp1%3Drgj%26sp2%3DNews%26sp3%3DLocal%2BNews%26sp5
%3DRGJ.com%26sp6%3Dnews%26sp7%3Dlocal_news%26jsmultitag%3Dn-
%ews.rgj.com/news/
local>
Quoted message said:

INTREPID Teens Wanted for Extreme Adventures Scoop.co.nz
(press release) - New Zealand ... These include mountain
biking, rock climbing, abseiling, or flying fox, water
confidence course, raft building and kayaking and sailing.
...
<http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/AK0403/S00261.htm>
EXPO will offer seminars for novices and information on
... San Jose Mercury News - San Jose,CA,USA ... My
generation was single-focused. Now you've got a younger
generation that integrates fly fishing with other
pursuits, such as mountain biking. ... <mercur-mercur-
ynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/8321298.htm>
This daily-once News Alert is brought to you by Google
News (BETA)...
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - Create another News Alert:
google.comnewsalerts
Try Google News: news.google.comnews.google.com
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-
limits to humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent
the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
construction.)
home.pacbell.netmjvande

Report
Eric Gisin
Archived post

2 April 2004, 09:23 UTC #8

Well Mikey, you web plague says you have a degree in Math.
That doesn't make you a genius, although certain personality
disorders may make you think so.
The more interesting claim is that you have a PhD in
Psychology << And my Ph.D. from the University of California
at Los Angeles is in Psychology, concentrating in
Psychometrics >>
Is this for real, or just one of your delusions?
"Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Anyone who bothers to read these "studies" will find that
they actually

prove
Quoted message said:
the OPPOSITE of what they CLAIM to prove! They actually
examine only damage

PER
Quoted message said:
MILE. Since mountain bikers typically travel several times
as far as hikers

(try
Quoted message said:
HIKING 25-50 miles in a day!), it follows FROM THEIR OWN
RESEARCH that

mountain
Quoted message said:
bikers have several times the impact of hikers. They also
don't test

mountain
Quoted message said:
biking under normal conditions: they simply roll passively
down a gently

sloping
Quoted message said:
hill -- no acceleration, no turns, no braking, all of
which would apply

shear
Quoted message said:
(horizontal) forces to the ground. In addition, almost all
studies ignore impacts on wildlife. As far as I know,
every one of these "studies" was done

by
Quoted message said:
(surprize, surprize) a mountain biker. Besides, they are
irrelevant, because

the
Quoted message said:
harm done by mountain biking is not related to the harm
done by other activities, such as hiking. The damage is
the same, regardless of what

hikers or
Quoted message said:
anyone else is doing!

Report
Hch
Archived post

2 April 2004, 09:23 UTC #9

And this was posted on April Fool's Day...

Report
Jason
Archived post

2 April 2004, 09:23 UTC #10

"Gary S." <Idontwantspam@net> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Brett Jaffee said:
Steve Curtiss <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:
Quoted message said:
> Besides, they are irrelevant, because the harm done by
> mountain biking is not related to the harm done by
> other activities, such as hiking. The damage is the
> same, regardless of what hikers or anyone else is
> doing!
>
Finally, you've said something! "The damage is the
same, regardless of what hikers or anyone else is
doing!" So, the impact of off road cycling and hiking
is the same!

BAN EVERYTHING!
That is Mikey's ultimate goal: to ban all recreational use
of the wilderness. Mountain biking is merely his first
priority. Horseback riding, hiking, skiing, and all the
resr come later in his plan. He may try to pit various
user groups against one another, but ultimately he wants
to get rid of all of them.
He also wants all non-native species removed from the
Americas (and, I assume, the rest of the continents)
including humans. Never mind how likely this is to happen.
He wants the human population of the world reduced
dramatically, and most of the world to be his "human free"
habitat. He has little to no regard for humans.
If he was actually capable of accomplishing anything other
than writing letters and Usenet posts, he might actually
be slightly dangerous.
How true you are, and considering its been, what, 8 years
now, and he has not accomplished step one in his 12 step
program, we have very little to worry about... other than
the fact he will never move on to a different issue. What a
moron he is.... and a liar.

Report
Mll
Archived post

2 April 2004, 11:07 UTC #11

"Gary S." <Idontwantspam@net> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Brett Jaffee said:
Steve Curtiss <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:
Quoted message said:
> Besides, they are irrelevant, because the harm done by
> mountain biking is not related to the harm done by
> other activities, such as hiking. The damage is the
> same, regardless of what hikers or anyone else is
> doing!
>
Finally, you've said something! "The damage is the
same, regardless of what hikers or anyone else is
doing!" So, the impact of off road cycling and hiking
is the same!

BAN EVERYTHING!
That is Mikey's ultimate goal: to ban all recreational use
of the wilderness. Mountain biking is merely his first
priority. Horseback riding, hiking, skiing, and all the
resr come later in his plan. He may try to pit various
user groups against one another, but ultimately he wants
to get rid of all of them.
He also wants all non-native species removed from the
Americas (and, I assume, the rest of the continents)
including humans. Never mind how likely this is to happen.
He wants the human population of the world reduced
dramatically, and most of the world to be his "human free"
habitat. He has little to no regard for humans.
If he was actually capable of accomplishing anything other
than writing letters and Usenet posts, he might actually
be slightly dangerous.
Happy trails, Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence
Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA Please reply to:
garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
Get a strong grip on reality. Plenty of areas are already
off-limits for various reasons. Where did you ever get the
ideas about Mike that you claim as fact? Cite your
references where he said he wanted all humans removed from
the Americas. If you can't, then put your out-of-control ego
in neutral, bend over, and pull your head out of your ass.
If you don't produce citations or formally apologize for
your vitriolic statements we'll get the point.

Report
Ken Campbell
Archived post

2 April 2004, 14:16 UTC #12

--____LPHMXLZMXOMRLFKSEJCW____
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
WAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA Poor MIKE!!!! Another nail to keep
you = churning. WAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Mike Vandeman<[email hidden]> 4/1/2004 9:34:45
AM >>>
Anyone who bothers to read these "studies" will find that
they actually = prove Snip.....
--____LPHMXLZMXOMRLFKSEJCW____ Content-Type:
multipart/related; boundary="____WHPEPQYSAQXEHDGESJXG____"
--____WHPEPQYSAQXEHDGESJXG____ Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-
1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type
content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1"=
Quoted message said:

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1276"
name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY style=3D"MARGIN: 4px 4px 1px;
FONT: 10pt Tahoma">
<DIV>WAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA</DIV>
<DV> </DIV>
<DVI>WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA Poor MIKE!!!!
Another nail to = keep you churning.
WAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA</DIV>
<DVII> >>> Mike
Vandeman<[email hidden]> =
4/1/2004 9:34:45 AM >>> </DIV> <DIV
style=3D"COLOR: #000000">Anyone who bothers to read
these "studies" = will find that they actually
prove Snip.....</DIV></BODY></HTML>
--____WHPEPQYSAQXEHDGESJXG____--
--____LPHMXLZMXOMRLFKSEJCW____--

Report
Gary S .
Archived post

2 April 2004, 14:16 UTC #13

MLL said:
"Gary S." <Idontwantspam@net> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
That is Mikey's ultimate goal: to ban all recreational
use of the wilderness. Mountain biking is merely his
first priority. Horseback riding, hiking, skiing, and all
the resr come later in his plan. He may try to pit
various user groups against one another, but ultimately
he wants to get rid of all of them.
He also wants all non-native species removed from the
Americas (and, I assume, the rest of the continents)
including humans. Never mind how likely this is to
happen.
He wants the human population of the world reduced
dramatically, and most of the world to be his "human
free" habitat. He has little to no regard for humans.
If he was actually capable of accomplishing anything
other than writing letters and Usenet posts, he might
actually be slightly dangerous.
Happy trails, Gary (net.yogi.bear)
Get a strong grip on reality. Plenty of areas are already
off-limits for various reasons.
As it should be, but in most cases there is some degree of
compromise.
Quoted message said:
Where did you ever get the ideas about Mike that you claim
as fact? Cite your references where he said he wanted all
humans removed from the Americas. If you can't, then put
your out-of-control ego in neutral, bend over, and pull
your head out of your ass.

You would not trust my citations anyways. Look at his
website, look through Google Groups.
MY ego is out of control? Interesting coming from you, who
tells everyone else what they can and cannot do, on your
personal Internet.
Quoted message said:
If you don't produce citations or formally apologize for
your vitriolic statements we'll get the point.

You can do the work as well as I can, with the clues above.
When I have posted similar in the past, Mikey has agreed
that those are his larger goals, although I am paraphrasing
and condensing.
Do you want Mikey to apologize for HIS far more vitriolic
statements?
Or do you support his goals and methods?
Happy trails, Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence
Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA Please reply to:
garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

Report
Mike Vandeman
Archived post

2 April 2004, 16:16 UTC #14

On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 17:10:12 GMT, "Michael Paul" <[email hidden]>
wrote:
.Junk Science? kind of Pot calling the kettle black coming
from you don't .you think? . .of course, us mere uneducated
fools would never think that your scientific .methods have
ever been called junk. What with the fact that you aren't
even .an expert in the field, that you never provide any
actual first hand .research, that you never actually name
your sources, and so on.
Careful, you are LYING again. It only takes a few seconds to
verify that all of my papers list their sources.
."Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
."]news:[email hidden]... .>
Anyone who bothers to read these "studies" will find that
they actually .prove .> the OPPOSITE of what they CLAIM to
prove! They actually examine only .damage PER .> MILE. Since
mountain bikers typically travel several times as far as
.hikers (try .> HIKING 25-50 miles in a day!), it follows
FROM THEIR OWN RESEARCH that .mountain .> bikers have
several times the impact of hikers. They also don't test
.mountain .> biking under normal conditions: they simply
roll passively down a gently .sloping .> hill -- no
acceleration, no turns, no braking, all of which would apply
.shear .> (horizontal) forces to the ground. In addition,
almost all studies ignore .> impacts on wildlife. As far as
I know, every one of these "studies" was .done by .>
(surprize, surprize) a mountain biker. Besides, they are
irrelevant, .because the .> harm done by mountain biking is
not related to the harm done by other .> activities, such as
hiking. The damage is the same, regardless of what .hikers
or .> anyone else is doing! .> .> Mike .> .> .> Date: Wed,
31 Mar 2004 14:14:14 -0800 (PST) .> From: newsalerts-
[email hidden] .> Subject: Google News Alert - mountain
biking .> .> PRESS RELEASE - New Science Review Indicates
that Mountain Biking ... .> Velonews - USA .> IMBA has
released a comprehensive review of scientific studies that
.examine .> the impacts of mountain biking on trails,
vegetation, and wildlife. ... .> <velonews.comt
ech/research/articles/5803.0.html> .> .> FOREST Service
decision will make trail changes .> Reno Gazette Journal -
Reno,NV,USA .> ... But mountain biking instructor and former
racer Max Jones III of .Carson .> City said Tuesday the
management plan is fair and necessary. ... .> .<--
rgj.com/news/stories/html/2004/03/30/67423.php?sp1=rgj&sp2=-
News& .sp3=Local+News&sp5=RGJ.com&sp6=news&sp7=local_news&j-
smultitag=news.rgj.com/n .ews/local> .> See all stories on
this topic: .> .<http://news.google.c-" rel="ugc nofollow noopener">news.google.comhttpnews.google.c
om/news?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&persist=1 .&num=30&hl=en&client=goo-
gle&newsclusterurl=rgj.comh .tml/2-
004/03/30/67423.php%3Fsp1%3Drgj%26sp2%3DNews%26sp3%3DLocal%-
2BNews%26sp5 .%3DRGJ.com%26sp6%3Dnews%26sp7%3Dlocal_news%26-
jsmultitag%3Dnews.rgj.com/news/ .local> .> .> INTREPID Teens
Wanted for Extreme Adventures .> Scoop.co.nz (press release)
- New Zealand .> ... These include mountain biking, rock
climbing, abseiling, or flying .> fox, water confidence
course, raft building and kayaking and sailing. .> ... .>
<http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/AK0403/S00261.htm> .>
.> EXPO will offer seminars for novices and information on
... .> San Jose Mercury News - San Jose,CA,USA .> ... My
generation was single-focused. Now you've got a younger
generation .> that integrates fly fishing with other
pursuits, such as mountain biking. .> ... .> <me-me-
rcurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/8321298.htm> .> .> This
daily-once News Alert is brought to you by Google News
(BETA)... .> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - .> Create another News Alert: .>
google.comnewsalerts .> .> Try Google
News: .> news.google.comnews.google.com .> === .> I am working on
creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to .> humans
("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 .>
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) .> .>
home.pacbell.netmjvande .
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
to humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the
previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
construction.)
home.pacbell.netmjvande

Report
Mike Vandeman
Archived post

2 April 2004, 16:16 UTC #15

On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:59:05 -0500, Steve Curtiss <[email hidden]>
wrote:
. . .Mike Vandeman wrote: . .> Anyone who bothers to read
these "studies" will find that they actually prove .> the
OPPOSITE of what they CLAIM to prove! They actually examine
only damage PER .> MILE. Since mountain bikers typically
travel several times as far as hikers (try .> HIKING 25-50
miles in a day!), it follows FROM THEIR OWN RESEARCH that
mountain .> bikers have several times the impact of hikers.
They also don't test mountain .> biking under normal
conditions: they simply roll passively down a gently sloping
.> hill -- no acceleration, no turns, no braking, all of
which would apply shear .> (horizontal) forces to the
ground. . .How do you know? Have you been present to confirm
your opinion? You claim it as fact, but how do you know
their methodology or test conditions?
By reading the reports. DUH! You should try it.
.> In addition, almost all studies ignore .> impacts on
wildlife. As far as I know, every one of these "studies" was
done by .> (surprize, surprize) a mountain biker. . .Again:
"as far as you know" ?
They usually don't admit it, which is dishonest. I have to
find out by asking them.
.> Besides, they are irrelevant, because the .> harm done by
mountain biking is not related to the harm done by other .>
activities, such as hiking. The damage is the same,
regardless of what hikers or .> anyone else is doing! .> .
.Finally, you've said something! "The damage is the same,
regardless of what hikers or anyone else is doing!" .So, the
impact of off road cycling and hiking is the same!
Learn to read. The damage doesn't change, regardless of what
hikers or others are doing. DUH!
.SC . .> .> Mike .> .> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:14:14 -0800
(PST) .> From: [email hidden] .> Subject:
Google News Alert - mountain biking .> .> PRESS RELEASE -
New Science Review Indicates that Mountain Biking ... .>
Velonews - USA .> IMBA has released a comprehensive review
of scientific studies that examine .> the impacts of
mountain biking on trails, vegetation, and wildlife. ... .>
<http://www.velonews.com/tech/research/articles/5803.0.html>
.> .> FOREST Service decision will make trail changes .>
Reno Gazette Journal - Reno,NV,USA .> ... But mountain
biking instructor and former racer Max Jones III of Carson
.> City said Tuesday the management plan is fair and
necessary. ... .> <rgj.com200
4/03/30/67423.php?sp1=rgj&sp2=News&sp3=Local+News&sp5=RGJ.c-
om&sp6=news&sp7=local_news&jsmultitag=news.rgj.com/news/loc-
al> .> See all stories on this topic: .> <news.googl-news.googl-
e.comhttp://news.google.com/news?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&persist=1&-
num=30&hl=en&client=google&newsclusterurl=rgj.co-rgj.co-
m/news/stories/html/2004/03/30/67423.php%3Fsp1%3Drgj%26sp2%-
3DNews%26sp3%3DLocal%2BNews%26sp5%3DRGJ.com%26sp6%3Dnews%26-
sp7%3Dlocal_news%26jsmultitag%3Dnews.rgj.com/news .>
INTREPID Teens Wanted for Extreme Adventures .> Scoop.co.nz
(press release) - New Zealand .> ... These include mountain
biking, rock climbing, abseiling, or flying .> fox, water
confidence course, raft building and kayaking and sailing.
.> ... .>
<http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/AK0403/S00261.htm> .>
.> EXPO will offer seminars for novices and information on
... .> San Jose Mercury News - San Jose,CA,USA .> ... My
generation was single-focused. Now you've got a younger
generation .> that integrates fly fishing with other
pursuits, such as mountain biking. .> ... .> <me-me-
rcurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/8321298.htm> .> .> This
daily-once News Alert is brought to you by Google News
(BETA)... .> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - .> Create another News Alert: .>
google.comnewsalerts .> .> Try Google
News: .> news.google.comnews.google.com .> === .> I am working on
creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to .> humans
("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 .>
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) .> .>
home.pacbell.netmjvande
===
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to humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the
previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
construction.)
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Mike Vandeman
Archived post

2 April 2004, 16:16 UTC #16

On Thu, 1 Apr 2004 16:06:23 -0800, "Jeff Strickland" <[email hidden]> wrote:
.The operative principle here is Per Mile. On a per mile
basis, the impact of .biking can actually be less than the
impact of hiking. A huge part of the .reason is that on a
per mile basis, the bike routes are generally harder
.surfaces than the hiking routes. This is not always the
case, but it is .generally the case. Hikers tend to prefer
softer surfaces, whereas bikes .tend to go for the firm
surfaces. . .A bike may have 10 adverse impacts per 25
miles, or 2.5 per mile. A hiker .might have 6 adverse
impacts in 2 miles, but that is as far as they go. But .in
two miles the hiker has had 3 adverse impacts per mile,
where the bike .only has 2.5 per mile. Hiking is more
detremental on a per mile basis. The .thing you constantly
neglect to talk about is that while on a 25 mile bike
.route, much of that route is multi use that involves much
more than just .bike activity. And, much of a 25 mile route
is of such a condition that it .is not affected by the mere
presence of a bike tire. Of the places where a .bike tire is
actually a problem, any travel, even on foot, is a problem.
Did you say something? Something stupid. Silly me, of
course you did.
."Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
."]news:[email hidden]... .>
Anyone who bothers to read these "studies" will find that
they actually .prove .> the OPPOSITE of what they CLAIM to
prove! They actually examine only .damage PER .> MILE. Since
mountain bikers typically travel several times as far as
.hikers (try .> HIKING 25-50 miles in a day!), it follows
FROM THEIR OWN RESEARCH that .mountain .> bikers have
several times the impact of hikers. They also don't test
.mountain .> biking under normal conditions: they simply
roll passively down a gently .sloping .> hill -- no
acceleration, no turns, no braking, all of which would apply
.shear .> (horizontal) forces to the ground. In addition,
almost all studies ignore .> impacts on wildlife. As far as
I know, every one of these "studies" was .done by .>
(surprize, surprize) a mountain biker. Besides, they are
irrelevant, .because the .> harm done by mountain biking is
not related to the harm done by other .> activities, such as
hiking. The damage is the same, regardless of what .hikers
or .> anyone else is doing! .> .> Mike .> .> .> Date: Wed,
31 Mar 2004 14:14:14 -0800 (PST) .> From: newsalerts-
[email hidden] .> Subject: Google News Alert - mountain
biking .> .> PRESS RELEASE - New Science Review Indicates
that Mountain Biking ... .> Velonews - USA .> IMBA has
released a comprehensive review of scientific studies that
.examine .> the impacts of mountain biking on trails,
vegetation, and wildlife. ... .> <velonews.comt
ech/research/articles/5803.0.html> .> .> FOREST Service
decision will make trail changes .> Reno Gazette Journal -
Reno,NV,USA .> ... But mountain biking instructor and former
racer Max Jones III of .Carson .> City said Tuesday the
management plan is fair and necessary. ... .> .<--
rgj.com/news/stories/html/2004/03/30/67423.php?sp1=rgj&sp2=-
News& .sp3=Local+News&sp5=RGJ.com&sp6=news&sp7=local_news&j-
smultitag=news.rgj.com/n .ews/local> .> See all stories on
this topic: .> .<http://news.google.c-" rel="ugc nofollow noopener">news.google.comhttpnews.google.c
om/news?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&persist=1 .&num=30&hl=en&client=goo-
gle&newsclusterurl=rgj.comh .tml/2-
004/03/30/67423.php%3Fsp1%3Drgj%26sp2%3DNews%26sp3%3DLocal%-
2BNews%26sp5 .%3DRGJ.com%26sp6%3Dnews%26sp7%3Dlocal_news%26-
jsmultitag%3Dnews.rgj.com/news/ .local> .> .> INTREPID Teens
Wanted for Extreme Adventures .> Scoop.co.nz (press release)
- New Zealand .> ... These include mountain biking, rock
climbing, abseiling, or flying .> fox, water confidence
course, raft building and kayaking and sailing. .> ... .>
<http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/AK0403/S00261.htm> .>
.> EXPO will offer seminars for novices and information on
... .> San Jose Mercury News - San Jose,CA,USA .> ... My
generation was single-focused. Now you've got a younger
generation .> that integrates fly fishing with other
pursuits, such as mountain biking. .> ... .> <me-me-
rcurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/8321298.htm> .> .> This
daily-once News Alert is brought to you by Google News
(BETA)... .> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - .> Create another News Alert: .>
google.comnewsalerts .> .> Try Google
News: .> news.google.comnews.google.com .> === .> I am working on
creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to .> humans
("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 .>
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) .> .>
home.pacbell.netmjvande .
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
to humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the
previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
construction.)
home.pacbell.netmjvande

Report
Mike Vandeman
Archived post

2 April 2004, 16:16 UTC #17

On Thu, 1 Apr 2004 18:48:06 -0800, "DesertFlea" <[email hidden]> wrote:
.Why in the hell do we keep entertaining Mikey and his
endless drivel with .responses?
Because you are afraid that people will believe me. DUH!
."Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
."]news:[email hidden]... .>
Anyone who bothers to read these "studies" will find that
they actually .prove .> the OPPOSITE of what they CLAIM to
prove! They actually examine only .damage PER .> MILE. Since
mountain bikers typically travel several times as far as
.hikers (try .> HIKING 25-50 miles in a day!), it follows
FROM THEIR OWN RESEARCH that .mountain .> bikers have
several times the impact of hikers. They also don't test
.mountain .> biking under normal conditions: they simply
roll passively down a gently .sloping .> hill -- no
acceleration, no turns, no braking, all of which would apply
.shear .> (horizontal) forces to the ground. In addition,
almost all studies ignore .> impacts on wildlife. As far as
I know, every one of these "studies" was .done by .>
(surprize, surprize) a mountain biker. Besides, they are
irrelevant, .because the .> harm done by mountain biking is
not related to the harm done by other .> activities, such as
hiking. The damage is the same, regardless of what .hikers
or .> anyone else is doing! .> .> Mike .> .> .> Date: Wed,
31 Mar 2004 14:14:14 -0800 (PST) .> From: newsalerts-
[email hidden] .> Subject: Google News Alert - mountain
biking .> .> PRESS RELEASE - New Science Review Indicates
that Mountain Biking ... .> Velonews - USA .> IMBA has
released a comprehensive review of scientific studies that
.examine .> the impacts of mountain biking on trails,
vegetation, and wildlife. ... .> <velonews.comt
ech/research/articles/5803.0.html> .> .> FOREST Service
decision will make trail changes .> Reno Gazette Journal -
Reno,NV,USA .> ... But mountain biking instructor and former
racer Max Jones III of .Carson .> City said Tuesday the
management plan is fair and necessary. ... .> .<--
rgj.com/news/stories/html/2004/03/30/67423.php?sp1=rgj&sp2=-
News& .sp3=Local+News&sp5=RGJ.com&sp6=news&sp7=local_news&j-
smultitag=news.rgj.com/n .ews/local> .> See all stories on
this topic: .> .<http://news.google.c-" rel="ugc nofollow noopener">news.google.comhttpnews.google.c
om/news?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&persist=1 .&num=30&hl=en&client=goo-
gle&newsclusterurl=rgj.comh .tml/2-
004/03/30/67423.php%3Fsp1%3Drgj%26sp2%3DNews%26sp3%3DLocal%-
2BNews%26sp5 .%3DRGJ.com%26sp6%3Dnews%26sp7%3Dlocal_news%26-
jsmultitag%3Dnews.rgj.com/news/ .local> .> .> INTREPID Teens
Wanted for Extreme Adventures .> Scoop.co.nz (press release)
- New Zealand .> ... These include mountain biking, rock
climbing, abseiling, or flying .> fox, water confidence
course, raft building and kayaking and sailing. .> ... .>
<http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/AK0403/S00261.htm> .>
.> EXPO will offer seminars for novices and information on
... .> San Jose Mercury News - San Jose,CA,USA .> ... My
generation was single-focused. Now you've got a younger
generation .> that integrates fly fishing with other
pursuits, such as mountain biking. .> ... .> <me-me-
rcurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/8321298.htm> .> .> This
daily-once News Alert is brought to you by Google News
(BETA)... .> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - .> Create another News Alert: .>
google.comnewsalerts .> .> Try Google
News: .> news.google.comnews.google.com .> === .> I am working on
creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to .> humans
("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 .>
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) .> .>
home.pacbell.netmjvande .
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
to humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the
previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
construction.)
home.pacbell.netmjvande

Report
Mike Vandeman
Archived post

2 April 2004, 16:16 UTC #18

On Thu, 1 Apr 2004 19:53:01 -0800, "Eric Gisin" <[email hidden]> wrote:
.Well Mikey, you web plague says you have a degree in Math.
That doesn't make .you a genius, although certain
personality disorders may make you think so. . .The more
interesting claim is that you have a PhD in Psychology <<
.And my Ph.D. from the University of California at Los
Angeles is in .Psychology, concentrating in Psychometrics >>
. .Is this for real, or just one of your delusions?
True, of course.
."Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
."]news:[email hidden]... .>
Anyone who bothers to read these "studies" will find that
they actually .prove .> the OPPOSITE of what they CLAIM to
prove! They actually examine only damage .PER .> MILE. Since
mountain bikers typically travel several times as far as
hikers .(try .> HIKING 25-50 miles in a day!), it follows
FROM THEIR OWN RESEARCH that .mountain .> bikers have
several times the impact of hikers. They also don't test
.mountain .> biking under normal conditions: they simply
roll passively down a gently .sloping .> hill -- no
acceleration, no turns, no braking, all of which would apply
.shear .> (horizontal) forces to the ground. In addition,
almost all studies ignore .> impacts on wildlife. As far as
I know, every one of these "studies" was done .by .>
(surprize, surprize) a mountain biker. Besides, they are
irrelevant, because .the .> harm done by mountain biking is
not related to the harm done by other .> activities, such as
hiking. The damage is the same, regardless of what .hikers
or .> anyone else is doing! .>
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
to humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the
previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
construction.)
home.pacbell.netmjvande

Report
Steve Curtiss
Archived post

2 April 2004, 16:16 UTC #19

Mike Vandeman said:

.> Besides, they are irrelevant, because the .> harm done
by mountain biking is not related to the harm done by
other .> activities, such as hiking. The damage is the
same, regardless of what hikers or .> anyone else is
doing! .> . .Finally, you've said something! "The damage
is the same, regardless of what hikers or anyone else is
doing!" .So, the impact of off road cycling and hiking is
the same!
Learn to read. The damage doesn't change, regardless of
what hikers or others are doing. DUH!
You are right! The damage doesn't change! Incursion by
hikers or cyclists (on bikes) is measured equally,
regardless of what the others are doing.
S

Report
Jeff Strickland
Archived post

2 April 2004, 19:16 UTC #20

"Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
On Thu, 1 Apr 2004 16:06:23 -0800, "Jeff Strickland"
<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

.The operative principle here is Per Mile. On a per mile
basis, the impact

of
Quoted message said:
.biking can actually be less than the impact of hiking. A
huge part of the .reason is that on a per mile basis, the
bike routes are generally harder .surfaces than the hiking
routes. This is not always the case, but it is .generally
the case. Hikers tend to prefer softer surfaces, whereas
bikes .tend to go for the firm surfaces. . .A bike may
have 10 adverse impacts per 25 miles, or 2.5 per mile. A
hiker .might have 6 adverse impacts in 2 miles, but that
is as far as they go.

But
Quoted message said:
.in two miles the hiker has had 3 adverse impacts per
mile, where the bike .only has 2.5 per mile. Hiking is
more detremental on a per mile basis.

The
Quoted message said:
.thing you constantly neglect to talk about is that while
on a 25 mile

bike
Quoted message said:
.route, much of that route is multi use that involves much
more than just .bike activity. And, much of a 25 mile
route is of such a condition that

it
Quoted message said:
.is not affected by the mere presence of a bike tire. Of
the places where

a
Quoted message said:
.bike tire is actually a problem, any travel, even on
foot, is a problem.
Did you say something? Something stupid. Silly me, of
course you did.
Great argument. Excellent rebuttal.
Not.
Why do you ALWAYS engage in schoolyard tactics? One would
think that a PhD would be able to actually construct a
sentence that supported his position.
I have been on this board, ca.environment, for several
years, and I can say with certainty that you have never made
a cohesive argument that actually supports your views. You
have made many arguments that suport your views, but none of
them actually stand up to any sort of scrutiny.

Report

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