ideal clincher tire

Building a set of wheels, components are: Record 10 hubs DT Competition 14-18 & aluminum nips. Mavic
Open Pro "SUP" "CD" "Maxtral" one of these means black anodized 32 holes.

Lacing is 2 cross front 3 cross rear. Drive side nipples are brass.

Used The Book, and on the front wheel I got very high tension, to the point that the nipples are
difficult to turn. After stress reliving per book with lather gloves on 4 parallel spokes I do not
get the taco deformation. I am unwilling to tension further as the nipples will strip at the
squares. The Park spoke wrench is difficult to turn.

The Open Pro is not an aero rim it has a cross sectional area bigger than the MA2 but not as big as
many aero rims.

Do I now have a over tensioned wheel that will taco when braking when descending?

The Open Pro is common has anybody built a wheel and tensioned to taco per The Book?

Paolo Sant'Ambrogio Santa Monica, CA

Paolo Sant'Ambrogio said:

Drive side nipples are brass.

That's unbeatable as an answer to dianne_1234's original question in this thread.

John

dianne_1234 said:

It wouldn't have: belts anti-pinch bead

Anti-pinch bead? That's a new one to me.

Art Harris

Paolo Sant'Ambrogio said:

Building a set of wheels, components are: Record 10 hubs DT Competition 14-18 & aluminum nips.

14-18? Is there really such an animal? I wouldn't use that!

Quoted message said:

Mavic Open Pro "SUP" "CD" "Maxtral" one of these means black anodized

32

Quoted message said:

holes.

Lacing is 2 cross front 3 cross rear. Drive side nipples are brass.

Used The Book, and on the front wheel I got very high tension, to the

point

Quoted message said:

that the nipples are difficult to turn. After stress reliving per book

with

Quoted message said:

lather gloves on 4 parallel spokes I do not get the taco deformation. I

am

Quoted message said:

unwilling to tension further as the nipples will strip at the squares.

The

Quoted message said:

Park spoke wrench is difficult to turn.

Are the spoke threads well lubed? Also, you might want to try a "Spokey" spoke wrench. The taco
doesn't have to be extreme, but you should get a definite wave that is easily seen.

If you read the book, I'm surprised that you're using anodized rims, and aluminum nipples.

Art Harris

Sounds like Hutchinson's Profil-U. no belt, the kevlar was incorporated into the casing.

Smooth transition from sidewall to a slight "point" in the "tread" center (cross section). Less
rubber on road when upright, more rubber when leaning (translation,- less rolling resistance
straight, more traction turning).

No tread, per se, but a slight "negative" siping in an otherwise slick surface.

Oval design gave same rim protection for given tire size with narrower actual profile = more
aerodynamic(?)

Unfortunately, you missed out. Hutchinson stopped production sometime in the late nineties. Nashbar
had a close out recently (must have had some hidden in storage). But not offering them any more.

May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear for the hills! Chris

Chris'Z Corner "The Website for the Common Bicyclist": geocities.comczcornerOpen ↗

sorry art, i feel compelled to take issue with the "anodized rim" statement. almost all rims are
anodized, whether it be silver or any other color. /all/ mavic rims are anodized. period. it is a
frequently repeated misconception that "black" = anodized, and "silver" does not. the rim cracking
flaws commonly attributed to "anodizing" on this forum are typically due to extrusion defects and
/not/ anodizing-induced fatigue. the faq's really need to be updated.

the truth of the matter is that anodized bike components have been the norm for decades. brake
calipers & brake levers, cranks & seat posts, handlebars & stems, all are anodized and none have
been excoriated on this forum for their "anodizing induced fatigue", and for good reason!

jb

Quoted message said:

If you read the book, I'm surprised that you're using anodized rims, and aluminum nipples.

Art Harris

Paolo Sant'Ambrogio said:

Used The Book, and on the front wheel I got very high tension, to the point that the nipples are
difficult to turn. After stress reliving per book with lather gloves on 4 parallel spokes I do not
get the taco deformation. I am unwilling to tension further as the nipples will strip at the
squares. The Park spoke wrench is difficult to turn.

I suspect you are not getting the spokes tight if you have come to a point where you cannot turn the
nipples. Properly lubricated nipples will turn until the spoke snaps regardless of your spoke wrench
(if it has a reasonably close fit). My spoke wrench is a parallel, hardened steel VAR tool and I can
get spokes far tighter than the spokes like.

I see VAR has knuckled under and made a 4-corner (pseudo socket) end on their trusty old flat jawed
wrench. This is not necessary in my experience. Every time I have been confronted with one of these
"can't turn the nipple any more" sessions, a drop of 30W oil made the already partially rounded
nipple perform as it should. 4-corner spoke wrenches add a movement (complexity) to spoke nipple
engagement that I prefer to not have.

Oil those spokes as described in the book I assume you have. although I'm not so sure you read all
of what you needed... or we wouldn't be talking about this here.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

Spokes were lubed with the current equivalent of 30w, Mobil 1 5w-30, the same oil that goes in the
car. I can see oil at the nipple - socket circumference. The threads were lubed when the wheel was
loosely laced and the nipple threads were not taken up by the spoke. Each nipple was able to receive
a drop or more of oil.

I looked at the VAR and Spokey tools and like that they grab the soft alum. nipples on all four
corners. The Park grabs on two faces, like a box end wrench instead of a socket. The Book describes
tensioning smaller section MA2's with brass nipples. The wheels discussed have softer nipples and
greater sectional area.

Apologies for starting this in the wrong thread, and stating the wrong gage, spokes are DT *14-15*
ga., 1.8-2.0 mm

I did experience a taco failure on a descent; truck made u turn, me going 30mph, brake hard, rear
skids, bike sideways, I release rear brake, wheel tacoes. This I'd prefer to avoid.

Paolo Sant'Ambrogio Santa Monica, CA

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Paolo Sant'Ambrogio writes:

snip

Quoted message said:

Oil those spokes as described in the book I assume you have. although I'm not so sure you read all
of what you needed... or we wouldn't be talking about this here.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

Definately oil the threads of the spokes. Also, I found that oiling the eyelets on the tire side
makes tensioning, especially with aluminum nipples, go smoothly. I put some motor oil on a cotton
swab and lube each eyelet before lacing the wheel. It helps with brass nipples too. This with Mavic
wheels and DT spokes. The only disadvantage I've found is that I have to clean the wheels thoroughly
after building so that the rim tape will stick.

Steve Shapiro [email hidden]

jim beam said:

sorry art, i feel compelled to take issue with the "anodized rim" statement. almost all rims are
anodized, whether it be silver or any other color. /all/ mavic rims are anodized. period.

There is much confusion on this subject. Some silver rims have a clear alodine finish, which is
sometimes mistakenly called anodized. Other rims have a cosmetic light anodized finished. To the
best of my knowledge, black/dark grey rims are hard anodized.

Quoted message said:

the rim cracking flaws commonly attributed to "anodizing" on this forum are typically due to
extrusion defects and /not/ anodizing-induced fatigue. the faq's really need to be updated.

How do you explain that the MA-2 (polished silver) rim rarely cracked, but the identical MA-40
(anodized) rim cracked very often? The failure mechanism is as follows: Cracks form in the anodized
layer due to rim flexing. These cracks act as stress risers, and cause the cracks to propagate into
the rim itself.

Art Harris

dianne-<< My ideal clincher tire.

It would have: Data proving low rolling resistance (easier to pedal) Guaranteed not-to-exceed weight
(or my money back) Easy to mount (not tight fitting) Smooth transition from tread to sidewall
(better aerodynamics) Data proving good lean traction (faster cornering) >><BR><BR>

Don't forget cheap...

If it has colors, it doesn't have carbon black..

Sounds like you want a tubular.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Paolo-<< Lacing is 2 cross front 3 cross rear. Drive side nipples are brass.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Gotta ask, why two cross front? It saves the equivalent of about 1 spoke.

<< Used The Book, and on the front wheel I got very high tension, to the point that the nipples are
difficult to turn. >><BR><BR>

Lube the nipps, between nipp and rim??

I doubt you have overtensioned the 14/18(17?)spokes. I wonder if these spokes are a good choice for
the rear as well.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

It would have:

(1) > Data proving low rolling resistance (easier to pedal)

(2) > Easy to mount (not tight

Quoted message said:

fitting)

(3) > Don't forget cheap...

Quoted message said:

Sounds like you want a tubular.

Not with (1), (2), and (3) above -- but Peter added (3).

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Become MicroSoft-free forever. Ask me how. _`\(,_ | (_)/ (_) |

Paolo Sant'Ambrogio said:

Spokes were lubed with the current equivalent of 30w, Mobil 1 5w-30, the same oil that goes in the
car. I can see oil at the nipple - socket circumference. The threads were lubed when the wheel was
loosely laced and the nipple threads were not taken up by the spoke. Each nipple was able to
receive a drop or more of oil.

Something doesn't add up here. As I said, I use a straight slotted spoke wrench with which I can
over-tighten spokes without damage to the flanks of brass nipples. If you cannot tighten the spokes
further, then it is a friction problem between rim and nipple, the place where resistance to
rotation occurs. High friction in spoke threads would cause spokes to twist off. Spokes wire does
not have large twist resistance and this is a problem with thinner spokes, especially 1.5mm
diameter ones.

Quoted message said:

I looked at the VAR and Spokey tools and like that they grab the soft alum. nipples on all four
corners. The Park grabs on two faces, like an end wrench instead of a socket. The Book describes
tensioning smaller section MA2's with brass nipples. The wheels discussed have softer nipples and
greater sectional area.

Well?

Quoted message said:

Apologies for starting this in the wrong thread, and stating the wrong gage, spokes are DT *14-15*
ga., 1.8-2.0 mm

Quoted message said:

I did experience a taco failure on a descent; truck made u turn, me going 30mph, brake hard, rear
skids, bike sideways, I release rear brake, wheel tacoes. This I'd prefer to avoid.

In a crash, wheels are often the first to go.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

Quoted message said:

Some silver rims have a clear alodine finish, which is sometimes mistakenly called anodized.

that /is/ anodizing. /all/ current mavic rims are anodized, irrespective of color. just like campy
brake calipers are /all/ anodized.

Quoted message said:

knowledge, black/dark grey rims are hard anodized.

"CD" is hard anodized - dark grey color. black is just ordinary anodizing, but stained or even
painted. as you probably know, anodized finishes are available in any color you care to name on
other components, and this /includes/ "unstained". there are almost /no/ components sold unanodized
because while pure aluminum is strongly corrosion resistant, a lot of it's alloys are not and
subject to surface defects, pitting, etc. anodizing is the lesser of these evils.

Quoted message said:

How do you explain that the MA-2 (polished silver) rim rarely cracked,

just so we understand each other, the ma2 was available in silver anodized and "bright" silver.
both were available in the u.s., but from all the ma2's i've seen, the silver anodized was by far
the commonest
- it's the easiest to keep looking good.

Quoted message said:

mechanism is as follows: Cracks form in the anodized layer due to rim flexing. These cracks act as
stress risers, and cause the cracks to propagate into the rim itself.

that would be true in the absence of other defects. but as you can see in this pic,

technology.open.ac.ukccf3.gifOpen ↗

the crack is not on the anodized surface and is not even following the machining lines of the
braking surface! it's a jagged intergranular crack, as it says, following the plane of an extrusion
defect. straight fatigue is transgranular and would more closely follow a fatigue initiator, such as
you rightly say, an anodizing crack or a machining stress riser.

bike-nomad.comp0000401.jpgOpen ↗

on this pic, you can argue that the crack on the left starts with the anodizing cracks that radiate
from the spoke hole where the eyelet gets punched in. the right hand one however, is clearly
tangential - /not/ in line with anodizing cracks but exactly in line with its extrusion axis. both
cracks are again jagged and intergranular - characteristic of extrusion failure.

you /do/ see cracks in rim anodizing all the time. on a long enough time frame, because aluminum has
no fatigue endurance limit, agreed, whese could become a problem, but it's not the reason for the
rapid cracking we saw with the ma40 or the examples above. iirc, the ma40 was mavic's "maxtal" test
rim and they badly screwed up it's extrusion processing. mavic still do screw up from time to time,
but they're not as bad as they used to be.

jb

Quoted message said:

Something doesn't add up here. As I said, I use a straight slotted spoke wrench with which I can
over-tighten spokes without damage to the flanks of brass nipples. If you cannot tighten the
spokes further, then it is a friction problem between rim and nipple

if he's properly lubed, and he says he is, he could be using spokes that are slightly too long. once
he runs out of pre-formed thread, he's then trying to cut his own, and that will substantially
resistance as the threads bind. not an uncommon problem.

jb

dianne_1234 said:

My ideal clincher tire. It would have: Data proving low rolling resistance (easier to pedal)
Guaranteed not-to-exceed weight (or my money back) Easy to mount (not tight fitting) Smooth
transition from tread to sidewall (better aerodynamics) Data proving good lean traction (faster
cornering) What do you think?

Ideally one would also like it to be cheap, long-lasting and the size it claims to be.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

Jim Beam said:

Quoted message said:

Some silver rims have a clear alodine finish, which is sometimes mistakenly called anodized.

Quoted message said:

that /is/ anodizing. /all/ current mavic rims are anodized, irrespective of color. just like campy
brake calipers are /all/ anodized.

Alodine finish is not anodizing. A good test for this is to see if the surface is conductive, and
with alodine it is electrically conductive.

microsheencorporation.comanodizing.htmOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How do you explain that the MA-2 (polished silver) rim rarely cracked,

Quoted message said:

just so we understand each other, the ma2 was available in silver anodized and "bright" silver.
both were available in the u.s., but from all the ma2's i've seen, the silver anodized was by far
the commonest - it's the easiest to keep looking good.

Those are not the ones that people are referring to. The MA-2 rims that I have and have used have an
electrically conductive mirror like shiny finish. They are not anodized.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mechanism is as follows: Cracks form in the anodized layer due to rim flexing. These cracks act
as stress risers, and cause the cracks to propagate into the rim itself.

Quoted message said:

that would be true in the absence of other defects. but as you can see in this pic,

technology.open.ac.ukccf3.gifOpen ↗

Your picture is of a machined sidewall, not an extruded form. The profile was anodized in the
extruded bar condition and is anodized inside and out. When forming the hoop, the anodized surface
crazes being less elastic than the aluminum substrate that is yielding about its neutral axis.

Quoted message said:

the crack is not on the anodized surface and is not even following the machining lines of the
braking surface! it's a jagged intergranular crack, as it says, following the plane of an
extrusion defect. straight fatigue is transgranular and would more closely follow a fatigue
initiator, such as you rightly say, an anodizing crack or a machining stress riser.

I disagree with your analysis. This type of cracking was unknown before the anodizing fad
came to rims.

bike-nomad.comp0000401.jpgOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

on this pic, you can argue that the crack on the left starts with the anodizing cracks that
radiate from the spoke hole where the eyelet gets punched in. the right hand one however, is
clearly tangential - /not/ in line with anodizing cracks but exactly in line with its extrusion
axis. both cracks are again jagged and intergranular - characteristic of extrusion failure.

I think you ought to inspect some new rims under grazing incidence light and see that there are
myriad cracks in the anodized surface before the wheel has been ridden. Some of these cracks are
larger than others and some lie on flaws or extrusion irregularities. Back when hard anodizing was
believed to strengthen rims, and thicker was better, some rims cracked circumferentially into the
hollow part of the profile, leaving the tire secure on one half and the spokes pulling on the
inner half.

Quoted message said:

you /do/ see cracks in rim anodizing all the time. on a long enough time frame, because aluminum
has no fatigue endurance limit, agreed, whese could become a problem, but it's not the reason for
the rapid cracking we saw with the ma40 or the examples above. iirc, the ma40 was mavic's "maxtal"
test rim and they badly screwed up it's extrusion processing. mavic still do screw up from time to
time, but they're not as bad as they used to be.

These cracks are already there when the rim is completed, unused.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

(Qui si parla Campagnolo) said:

I doubt you have overtensioned the 14/18(17?)spokes. I wonder if these spokes are a good choice
for the rear as well.

He mentioned that his spokes were DT Competition, which are made in
14/15ga. or 15/16ga. S.W.G. 18ga. is equal to 1.22mm, which is not sufficiently thick for use
as spokes.

I would question the use of aluminum nipples as I believe they have a more pronounced effect on the
quality of the build than either lacing pattern or spoke gauge.

Chalo Colina