Ice axe *or* crampons?

In message <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] writes

Quoted message said:

If you were going on a winter walk where some snow/ice was likely, but
nothing particularly difficult or dangerous, which would you take
first, and why? (Note the emphasis on walk - I don't mean
front-pointing up gullies.)

I used to think the decision was considered straightforward, but I find
that the majority of people I encounter in the hills (round here at
least - which is Japan) make the opposing decision.

In Scotland, both - they have different uses and you are quite likely to
need both at different times of the day. I have needed an ice axe
during the day, once for self-arrest, but have also been caught on
sheets of ice when the temperature drops.

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

I tend to take either ice axe on its own or take both axe and crampons.
I've never taken crampons on their own. If you need crampons, you
almost certainly want an axe as well. I've regretted not taking axe and
/ or crampons a couple of times ! This is for walking, though I must
admit I'm not really an expert.

Hywel

Quoted message said:

If you were going on a winter walk where some snow/ice was likely, but
nothing particularly difficult or dangerous, which would you take
first, and why? (Note the emphasis on walk - I don't mean
front-pointing up gullies.)

I used to think the decision was considered straightforward, but I find
that the majority of people I encounter in the hills (round here at
least - which is Japan) make the opposing decision.

James

Ice Axe.

You can go with an ice axe but no crampons, but you should not take
crampons and no ice axe because GENERALLY crampons can get you into
trouble and the ice axe can get you out of trouble.

Cheers Beds

Quoted message said:

If you were going on a winter walk where some snow/ice was likely, but
nothing particularly difficult or dangerous, which would you take
first, and why? (Note the emphasis on walk - I don't mean
front-pointing up gullies.)

I used to think the decision was considered straightforward, but I find
that the majority of people I encounter in the hills (round here at
least - which is Japan) make the opposing decision.

If you are carrying a pole, crampons.

If you are not carrying a pole, ice axe.

Ice axe. Assuming any unavoidable difficult/steep snow/icesections are
likely to be short (or else you would be carryng both) then an axe can
be used to cut steps if required (as in ye olde days) and also to self
arrest in the event of a slip.
With crampons only any slip/trip on a short steep section could
cause more problems.
Iain

In message <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

If you were going on a winter walk where some snow/ice was likely, but
nothing particularly difficult or dangerous, which would you take
first, and why? (Note the emphasis on walk - I don't mean
front-pointing up gullies.)

I used to think the decision was considered straightforward, but I find
that the majority of people I encounter in the hills (round here at
least - which is Japan) make the opposing decision.

James

Well it all depends doesn't it.... I'd use my judgement about likely
conditions and select from all the equipment I have.

Let's suppose this walk was on forest tracks, or across flat moorland,
and there was no steep ground involved, or the possibility of a long and
potentialy fatal fall. In such circumstances I might just make do with
walking poles and stiffer boots. Alternatively if there was a lot of
soft snow I'd be tempted to use snow shoes. If the ground was covered
with a very firm windslab or ice then perhaps crampons would be needed
but not an axe. If the crust was still breakable, then the snowshoes
might be better again since they would both spread the load and they
have points that can grip, even on icey slopes. It's remarkable what
terrain you can cover quite easily using just snowshoes and walking
poles, and without the need for an axe.

Recently in the alps I had a couple of days off from ski-mountaineering
because heavy snowfall meant there was a high risk of avalanche
danger on the higher slopes. Instead we hired snowshoes and went for
some walks along some lower level forest trails. There were still a few
steeper sections of hillside to cross and the occasional stream gulley.
What we carried along with the snow shoes and poles was snow-shovels,
avalanche probes, and we were wearing transceivers. At least one use of
an ice-axe, the ability to dig a shelter, is better performed by a snow
shovel, and in the event of a small avalanche (a more objective risk)
the shovel is the better rescue tool than the axe.

Approaching your question from a different direction, as a skier I
normally start off using just skis and poles. Indeed most recreational
downhill skiers will find themselves on some remarkably steep slopes,
sometimes very icey slopes, without an ice axe. However when I start to
move off piste and contemplate touring or mountaineering then I would
tend to include both lightweight crampons and also a lightweight axe in
the equipment.

In the summer crossing alpine glaciers, or on higher snow slopes, or in
winter hill-walking in the UK I'd more than likely include both ice axe
and crampons in my kit. It's unlikely I'd think to include only one and
not the other. However when on the hill it is quite likely the axe would
come into use alone and before the crampons. For short sections of steep
ground it is often easier to cut a few steps and keep moving rather than
to waste time getting out and putting on the crampons.

However, the point about all the choices above is that (a) I've access
to a range of different bits of equipment and (b) I've had experience of
using them in a range of different circumstances. That experience means
I have the ability to make what I think is an approporiate choice

A mountain guide I know very well told me that when he is taking clients
ski-touring off piste, if they are first and foremost skiers and not
mountaineers, then he would try to avoid getting them to swap to
crampons for as much of the terrain as possible, this is simply because
they are more likely to trip and fall wearing crampons than on skis.
Alternatively if the clients are mountaineers then swapping to crampons
might be an earlier decision. I think the point this makes, is that what
is best probably depends upon the skills you have and the abilities to
use the equipment.

Both crampons and ice-axe require knowledge and skills in use. If you
haven't acquired those skills, then either piece of equipment could lead
to an accident rather than prevent one.

Getting back to your first question, then if I was put into the position
of having to choose only one item it would probably be the ice-axe
simply because it is a versatile tool. Not only can it be used as a
walking stick and for emergency self arrest, but you can also cut steps,
dig a shelter, dig in avalanche debris for trapped survivors, and of
course use it to climb steep snow, ice and rock.

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

Tom Crispin said:

Quoted message said:

If you were going on a winter walk where some snow/ice was likely, but
nothing particularly difficult or dangerous, which would you take
first, and why? (Note the emphasis on walk - I don't mean
front-pointing up gullies.)

I used to think the decision was considered straightforward, but I find
that the majority of people I encounter in the hills (round here at
least - which is Japan) make the opposing decision.

If you are carrying a pole, crampons.

If you are not carrying a pole, ice axe.

Prize for the most ridiculous answer goes to you sir.

Well done.

druidh

Quoted message said:

If you were going on a winter walk where some snow/ice was likely, but
nothing particularly difficult or dangerous, which would you take
first, and why? (Note the emphasis on walk - I don't mean
front-pointing up gullies.)

I used to think the decision was considered straightforward, but I find
that the majority of people I encounter in the hills (round here at
least - which is Japan) make the opposing decision.

Well I've always gone by what the Frenchman Georges Veron recommends for use in
the Pyreneans : Piolet (ie ice axe) essential, crampons sometimes useful.

Cheers,

--
Boo

druidh said:

Tom Crispin said:

Quoted message said:

If you were going on a winter walk where some snow/ice was likely, but
nothing particularly difficult or dangerous, which would you take
first, and why? (Note the emphasis on walk - I don't mean
front-pointing up gullies.)

I used to think the decision was considered straightforward, but I find
that the majority of people I encounter in the hills (round here at
least - which is Japan) make the opposing decision.

If you are carrying a pole, crampons.

If you are not carrying a pole, ice axe.

Prize for the most ridiculous answer goes to you sir.

Thanks for the laurels. Would you care to explain why you find it so
ridiculous?

"druidh" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Crispin said:

On 5 May 2006 17:05:14 -0700, [email hidden] wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you are carrying a pole, crampons.

If you are not carrying a pole, ice axe.

Prize for the most ridiculous answer goes to you sir.

Well done.

druidh

Why? It seemed sensible to me.

Jiffy

Quoted message said:

If you were going on a winter walk where some snow/ice was likely, but
nothing particularly difficult or dangerous, which would you take
first, and why?

Both, because I remember the answer given by an experienced mountain
guide and MRT member to a very similar question several years ago:

"If you suspect that you'll need either then it's odds-on that you'll
need both".

I don't always _use_ both but both are carried nonetheless. Neither
weighs so much as to be a hindrance, and their presence gives me more
options should the unexpected arise.

Al
--
[This space left intentionally blank]

Quoted message said:

If you were going on a winter walk where some snow/ice was likely, but
nothing particularly difficult or dangerous, which would you take
first, and why? (Note the emphasis on walk - I don't mean
front-pointing up gullies.)

Depends on the conditions: I'd usually start with an axe, but there
have been times I've been out when crampons have been essential and
an axe no use at all.

However, in the great majority of cases, if I want one then I want
them both. I've decided before walks that I wouldn't need one or
both and felt pretty stupid cutting steps with rocks over rather
scary runouts...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

I have to agree a bit with the 'ridiculous' part; what is a 'pole' ?
And what purpose would it serve in icy conditions?

Rob

On 6 May 2006 13:42:20 -0700, "Rob G" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I have to agree a bit with the 'ridiculous' part; what is a 'pole' ?
And what purpose would it serve in icy conditions?

A trekking pole. It makes a serious fall on ice less likely. Wearing
crampons there's no need to cut steps.

Tom Crispin said:

If you are carrying a pole, crampons.

If you are not carrying a pole, ice axe.

<splort!>

Okay, apart from the keyboard, screen and t-shirt you owe me...

Please tell us all how you can self-arrest with a walking pole.

Take your time.

Alan Dicey said:

Tom Crispin said:

If you are carrying a pole, crampons.

If you are not carrying a pole, ice axe.

<splort!>

Okay, apart from the keyboard, screen and t-shirt you owe me...

Please tell us all how you can self-arrest with a walking pole.

If you tell me where a claim to be able do so was made first.

Thanks for the comments - it seems that I am not alone in my views,
even if they are not universally held. I didn't specify, but we always
take axes first, and crampons an optional second, depending on the
expected conditions.

On this latest walk, there would certainly have been times when
crampons would have been usable and even useful, but it's not clear
that they would have repaid the time and effort in repeatedly putting
them on and off (or wearing them over rocks and roots, and hacking up
newly-installed boardwalks with them, like all the Japanese were
doing). As it happens, there were essentially no long steep slopes with
the chance of a long fall, so crampons and poles (which almost everyone
else had) probably wasn't that bad a combination. But I was surprised
at the extent to which our choices stood out!

James

Alan Dicey said:

Okay, apart from the keyboard, screen and t-shirt you owe me...

Please tell us all how you can self-arrest with a walking pole.

Take your time.

Pretty much the same you do with an axe, and I speak from personal
experience of having done it a couple of times. Does it work as
well? No. Does it work well enough? that depends on the
situation, but it did for me... the sort of places you're using a
pole for support in preference to an ice axe it ought to.
Why wasn't I carrying an axe in my hands? Because I was skiing!

Looks like you destroyed a perfectly good keyboard and monitor on
the basis of a wrong assumption...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Quoted message said:

Thanks for the comments - it seems that I am not alone in my views,
even if they are not universally held. I didn't specify, but we always
take axes first, and crampons an optional second, depending on the
expected conditions.

"Always" is a questionable choice, it doesn't leave you any room.
Having been on the hill after a huge thaw and then very fast and
deep re-freeze I've had conditions where the whole mountainside was
more or less a sheet of water ice. Crampons /far/ more use than an
axe on that, even if it was an exceptional case.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/