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I need a sign

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Road Cycling
Published
28 June 2005
Last activity
12 July 2005
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Dane Jackson
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  1. Upon realizing the same [censored] has just drafted me across the I-90
    bridge for the third time in recent memory, I decided to mention to
    him that it was rude to draft without asking. As we reached the end
    of the bridge he pulled up next to me and asked how I was doing.

    OF = Other Fellow
    Me: Fine. Just on the way home from work.
    OF: Ah commuting.
    Me: Yes. Err, you know it's pretty rude to draft without asking.
    - OF gets offended look, starts to pull away.
    OF: *something semi-intelligible like "well why were you racing me"

    I decide maybe I was a bit harsh and decide to catch him and try and
    talk to him.

    Me: I don't mean to come off as a [censored], but it's not safe for you to
    draft me if I don't you're back there.
    OF: Well, you know it's pretty standard to draft other people.
    Me: Not really, and it's rude to do it without asking. Especially
    if I don't know you're back there.
    OF: Well you should keep aware of what's going on, pay attention. [1]
    It just goes to show your in-experience cycling.
    - At this point I burst out laughing. I'm not uber-cyclist, but I
    only started seeing him cycling about May this year. I didn't see
    him out in December and January.
    OF: If you didn't want me to draft you, why did you pass me back there? [2]
    Me: Just because I'm not out in pacelines, and I'm not a *club* cyclist,
    doesn't mean I'm inexperienced. It means I don't do the same kind
    of cycling you do.
    OF: (can't remember) Something about me being (snobby ?) about club
    cyclists I guess.
    Me: You could have passed me any time you wanted, I kept to the right just
    fine.
    OF: *something about him being faster than me.*
    OF: You should do some training, pick up the pace!
    - At this point the light I was waiting on changed, and I didn't see
    any point in hanging around and discussing it further.

    If he's so much faster than me, why does he keep drafting me?

    God he managed to [censored] me off.

    [1] I actually was aware that he was back there obviously, but sometimes
    the idiots sneak up on me. As for 'paying attention', I wasn't the
    one with the iPod earbuds stuck in my ear.
    [2] I'm not positive what he means here, I entered the bridge from the
    trail-bit that goes past the ball-field, he entered from the road.
    I saw him coming and decided not to wait for him to go first, but I
    hardly think I cut him off or anything.

    --
    Dane Jackson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
    Thus spake the master programmer:
    "A well-written program is its own heaven; a poorly-written program
    is its own hell."
    -- Geoffrey James, "The Tao of Programming"

  2. Dane Jackson wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    [2] I'm not positive what he means here, I entered the bridge from the
    trail-bit that goes past the ball-field, he entered from the road.
    I saw him coming and decided not to wait for him to go first, but I
    hardly think I cut him off or anything.

    While I have been known to mix it up from time to time out of sheer boredom
    with the same route all the time, generally speaking, the folks who go
    around the lid instead up and over are wusses. The best reason to go around
    is that it is a bit shadier on a hot summer's afternoon. This morning,
    however, did not qualify. (It was raining, for those of you not local
    reading this.)

    As for making a sign: Rose and I rode Flying Wheels with a nice sign that
    said, "Slow on Hills". This sign was written in indelible marker and was
    made out of a half piece of craft foam duck-taped to the rear rack. Because
    I am not as nimble as I'd like to be on the tandem, I personally don't want
    to be drafted while on that bike, myself, but I realized at our pace,
    there's no danger of it.

    --
    Warm Regards,

    Claire Petersky
    Personal page: http://www.geocities.com/cpetersky/
    See the books I've set free at:
    http://bookcrossing.com/referr­al/Cpetersky

  3. So, do you think this guy will learn his lesson before or after he
    drafts somebody else who doesn't know he's back there and turns / stops
    / swerves around a pothole, etc. without calling out anything?

    This sig seems in order:
    Good judgment comes from experience.
    Experience comes from bad judgment.

  4. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Dane Jackson said:

    OF: If you didn't want me to draft you, why did you pass me back there? [2]
    Me: Just because I'm not out in pacelines, and I'm not a *club* cyclist,
    doesn't mean I'm inexperienced. It means I don't do the same kind
    of cycling you do.
    OF: (can't remember) Something about me being (snobby ?) about club
    cyclists I guess.
    Me: You could have passed me any time you wanted, I kept to the right just
    fine.
    OF: *something about him being faster than me.*
    OF: You should do some training, pick up the pace!
    - At this point the light I was waiting on changed, and I didn't see
    any point in hanging around and discussing it further.

    If he's so much faster than me, why does he keep drafting me?

    With all his lame excuses, it sounds like he knew he
    was being rude by drafting you without your permission,
    and you had him on the defensive. I dunno why he couldn't
    just say "Sorry, I didn't realize it was bothering you,"
    and desist from then on.

    Quoted message said:

    God he managed to [censored] me off.

    I don't think he'll bother you anymore, for fear of
    being (as he probably perceives it) bawled out.

    It's good that you got a chance to speak directly
    to him about your objections to his drafting you.
    I guess you don't need to clutter your bike with
    a sign, after all.

    cheers,
    Tom

    --
    -- Nothing is safe from me.
    Above address is just a spam midden.
    I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

  5. Dane Jackson said:

    Upon realizing the same [censored] has just drafted me across the I-90
    bridge for the third time in recent memory, I decided to mention to
    him that it was rude to draft without asking. As we reached the end
    of the bridge he pulled up next to me and asked how I was doing.

    [snip]

    I just sit up and wave 'em by. I don't care if I lose five seconds; I
    refuse to be drafted. Pretty much the same position I took in 1968.

    RichC

  6. Claire Petersky said:

    Dane Jackson wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    [2] I'm not positive what he means here, I entered the bridge from the
    trail-bit that goes past the ball-field, he entered from the road.
    I saw him coming and decided not to wait for him to go first, but I
    hardly think I cut him off or anything.

    While I have been known to mix it up from time to time out of sheer boredom
    with the same route all the time, generally speaking, the folks who go
    around the lid instead up and over are wusses. The best reason to go around
    is that it is a bit shadier on a hot summer's afternoon. This morning,
    however, did not qualify. (It was raining, for those of you not local
    reading this.)

    It was actually on the way home yesterday afternoon. I'm not sure what the
    name of that baseball field on Mercer is.

    *a short google later*

    Feroglia Fields

    Quoted message said:

    As for making a sign: Rose and I rode Flying Wheels with a nice sign that
    said, "Slow on Hills". This sign was written in indelible marker and was
    made out of a half piece of craft foam duck-taped to the rear rack. Because
    I am not as nimble as I'd like to be on the tandem, I personally don't want
    to be drafted while on that bike, myself, but I realized at our pace,
    there's no danger of it.

    I actually got an idea from someone mentioning that on one of the local
    organized rides (might have been STP) they saw a Tandem with a sign that
    said 'Not a Tow Truck'. I've been toying with the idea ever since.

    --
    Dane Jackson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
    To err is human, to repent, divine, to persist, devilish.
    -- Benjamin Franklin

  7. Bob Dole said:

    So, do you think this guy will learn his lesson before or after he
    drafts somebody else who doesn't know he's back there and turns / stops
    / swerves around a pothole, etc. without calling out anything?

    Probably not. I have a feeling that he's probably someone who does a
    lot of cycling, but is not a general purpose cyclist. My guess is he's
    a cat 4/5 racer who decided to get some extra miles in commuting. [1]

    Quoted message said:

    This sig seems in order:
    Good judgment comes from experience.
    Experience comes from bad judgment.

    That's so very very true. Nothing teaches us lessons as well as mistakes.
    Particularly painful expensive mistakes.

    [1] Judging (quite possibly erroneously) from his equipment and demeanor.

    --
    Dane Jackson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
    BASIC, n.:
    A programming language. Related to certain social diseases in
    that those who have it will not admit it in polite company.

  8. Tom Keats said:

    Dane Jackson <[email hidden]> writes:

    With all his lame excuses, it sounds like he knew he
    was being rude by drafting you without your permission,
    and you had him on the defensive. I dunno why he couldn't
    just say "Sorry, I didn't realize it was bothering you,"
    and desist from then on.

    Yeah, I've told other people the same things and some of them got
    offended also, but none were this defensive. Some of them took it
    really well "Oh, sorry, didn't know that", I just say "That's ok"
    and we go our separate ways.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    God he managed to [censored] me off.

    I don't think he'll bother you anymore, for fear of
    being (as he probably perceives it) bawled out.

    I saw him again this morning. I caught up to him because he was
    lollygagging. I said "Good morning" when we got to a road crossing.
    He just gave me a dirty look and took off. Shrug.

    Quoted message said:

    It's good that you got a chance to speak directly
    to him about your objections to his drafting you.
    I guess you don't need to clutter your bike with
    a sign, after all.

    Nah, I definitely think it's time. I'll probably put it on the bike
    from May to October. I never have any problem with it any other
    of the year.

    --
    Dane Jackson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
    "Benson, you are so free of the ravages of intelligence"
    -- Time Bandits

  9. rdclark said:
    Dane Jackson said:

    Upon realizing the same [censored] has just drafted me across the I-90
    bridge for the third time in recent memory, I decided to mention to
    him that it was rude to draft without asking. As we reached the end
    of the bridge he pulled up next to me and asked how I was doing.

    I just sit up and wave 'em by. I don't care if I lose five seconds; I
    refuse to be drafted. Pretty much the same position I took in 1968.

    Sometimes I do that. Usually when I'm on the Burke Gillman trail.
    The ride to and fro work is not really a good place to draft. There's
    a lot of switching from road to trail, and lots of vehicle turnouts.
    So, you kind of have to be aggressively clueless to draft in this area.

    --
    Dane Jackson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
    "Eagles fly; but weasels aren't sucked into jet engines."

  10. Dane Jackson said:


    If he's so much faster than me, why does he keep drafting me?

    There's an older dude I see a lot on my rides. I routinely pass him as I'm
    a bit stronger--no insult to the guy who's a strong rider in his 60s by
    the look of things. He rides an Italian carbon job with all off the gee
    gaws, with a terrible cadence to ruin it all. :P Anyhow, I've said hi to
    him, as I always try to be friendly, every single time I've passed him.
    Each time he's literally turn up his nose as if he was offended at my
    lowly bike and said nothing. Then he proceeds to draft me for a few miles.
    When we reach a downhill and I can't go faster as I'm on a singlespeed, he
    passes me with a smug look. Something I'd expect from a snotty teenager,
    but this guys retirement age.

    Back to your question, your guy and my guy are simply [censored]. That's the
    short of it. Next time I'm going to give my particular fellow a piece of
    my mind. You're right--it's a safety issue, no amount of carbon textured
    bar tape can mitigate that.

  11. rdclark said:


    I
    refuse to be drafted.

    Just wondering why.
    I understand the idea of wanting to know someones is there from a
    safety perspective. But other than that- at least for me- I couldn't
    care less. I don't mid pulling a weaker rider along and I love being
    pulled by stronger rider. I think both situations are fine. The former
    makes stronger psychologicaly and the latter makes me feel faster :-)

  12. maxo said:
    Dane Jackson said:


    If he's so much faster than me, why does he keep drafting me?

    There's an older dude I see a lot on my rides. I routinely pass him
    as I'm a bit stronger--no insult to the guy who's a strong rider in
    his 60s by the look of things. He rides an Italian carbon job with
    all off the gee gaws, with a terrible cadence to ruin it all. :P
    Anyhow, I've said hi to him, as I always try to be friendly, every
    single time I've passed him. Each time he's literally turn up his
    nose as if he was offended at my lowly bike and said nothing. Then he
    proceeds to draft me for a few miles. When we reach a downhill and I
    can't go faster as I'm on a singlespeed, he passes me with a smug
    look. Something I'd expect from a snotty teenager, but this guys
    retirement age.

    Back to your question, your guy and my guy are simply [censored].
    That's the short of it. Next time I'm going to give my particular
    fellow a piece of my mind. You're right--it's a safety issue, no
    amount of carbon textured bar tape can mitigate that.

    Oh fer gawds sake. Just drop him. Or draft him. Or pull over so he can't
    draft you.

    Buncha sensitive sallies around here... BS

  13. maxo said:

    my mind. You're right--it's a safety issue, no amount of carbon textured
    bar tape can mitigate that.

    Not really. The safety issue is primarily with the guy doing the
    drafting. The usual crash resulting from drafting is that you will touch
    wheels, which results in guy #2 going down fast. Of course, he could ride
    right up into you, but that is not just 'cause of drafting. He could also
    fail to notice you stopping. But usually he just rubs your wheel, and
    ends up wondering what happened.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | The lottery is a tax on those who fail to understand
    _`\(,_ | mathematics.
    (_)/ (_) |

  14. In article <[email hidden]>,

    gds said:
    rdclark said:


    I
    refuse to be drafted.

    Just wondering why.

    If wheels touch and the draft-er goes down and rings his
    bell or sustains some other kind of major injury, the lead
    rider might be obligated by law to remain at the scene of
    the "accident", administer or obtain any help s/he can to
    mitigate the injuries, note the details of the incident,
    and wait at the scene to give statements to the authorities
    when they arrive. I think most of us wouldn't mind helping
    a fellow rider in trouble. But when it's so needless, it can
    all be a royal PITA to someone who just wants to mind their
    own beeswax and get home to dinner on time.

    And then there's the possibility of litigation, later.

    cheers,
    Tom

    --
    -- Nothing is safe from me.
    Above address is just a spam midden.
    I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

  15. David L. Johnson said:


    Not really. The safety issue is primarily with the guy doing the
    drafting. The usual crash resulting from drafting is that you will touch
    wheels, which results in guy #2 going down fast. Of course, he could ride
    right up into you, but that is not just 'cause of drafting. He could also
    fail to notice you stopping. But usually he just rubs your wheel, and
    ends up wondering what happened.

    Well, I don't want to find out that you are wrong.

    Althought, I seldom get drafted.

    Life is Good!
    Jeff

  16. Tom Keats said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    gds said:
    rdclark said:


    I
    refuse to be drafted.

    Just wondering why.

    If wheels touch and the draft-er goes down and rings his
    bell or sustains some other kind of major injury, the lead
    rider might be obligated by law to remain at the scene of
    the "accident", administer or obtain any help s/he can to
    mitigate the injuries, note the details of the incident,
    and wait at the scene to give statements to the authorities
    when they arrive. I think most of us wouldn't mind helping
    a fellow rider in trouble. But when it's so needless, it can
    all be a royal PITA to someone who just wants to mind their
    own beeswax and get home to dinner on time.

    And then there's the possibility of litigation, later.

    cheers,
    Tom

    --
    -- Nothing is safe from me.
    Above address is just a spam midden.
    I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

    OK I understand that in theory. But from a practical point of view I
    think ithas to be rare. I've been riding for over 50 years and much of
    that has been in close proximity to other riders. Crashes have been few
    and far between and I have never heard of a rider being sued by someone
    who strikes them from behind. I'm sure someone will come up with an
    example but it stil has to be very rare.
    I guess I don't spend a lot of time worryong about these things which I
    don't view as very high risk. And besides I like riding with others and
    like drafting and being drafted. I have had some very pleasant rides
    with shared pulling over many miles with complete strangers.And I've
    even become friends with some of them.

    Other comments about bad attitude would turn me off much more than
    simply having someone to pull along. I do agree that there are polite
    ways to go about it and certainly if you indicate your lack of interest
    it should be respected.

  17. David L. Johnson said:
    maxo said:

    my mind. You're right--it's a safety issue, no amount of carbon textured
    bar tape can mitigate that.

    Not really. The safety issue is primarily with the guy doing the
    drafting. The usual crash resulting from drafting is that you will touch
    wheels, which results in guy #2 going down fast.

    Hmm, the statistics are in my favour...maybe I just need to tap the brakes
    and see if the old boy's been taking his calcium supplements...

    😉

  18. In article <[email hidden]>,

    gds said:

    OK I understand that in theory. But from a practical point of view I
    think ithas to be rare. I've been riding for over 50 years and much of
    that has been in close proximity to other riders. Crashes have been few
    and far between and I have never heard of a rider being sued by someone
    who strikes them from behind. I'm sure someone will come up with an
    example but it stil has to be very rare.

    To tell ya the truth, I haven't heard of such a case either.
    OTOH, stuff happens.

    Quoted message said:

    I guess I don't spend a lot of time worryong about these things which I
    don't view as very high risk. And besides I like riding with others and
    like drafting and being drafted. I have had some very pleasant rides
    with shared pulling over many miles with complete strangers.And I've
    even become friends with some of them.

    Sounds like fun, especially when everybody gets to do their share
    of work. But I suspect Dane's wheel sucker was just mooching.

    Quoted message said:

    Other comments about bad attitude would turn me off much more than
    simply having someone to pull along. I do agree that there are polite
    ways to go about it and certainly if you indicate your lack of interest
    it should be respected.

    Maybe another fly in the ointment is neither party having any
    inkling as to the other's intended route. I guess cruising
    along on the open road is one thing; having to make more
    abrupt manoeuvers on a commuting route might be quite another.
    And I'm not so sure I'd want strangers following me home.

    cheers,
    Tom

    --
    -- Nothing is safe from me.
    Above address is just a spam midden.
    I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

  19. "gds" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    rdclark said:


    I
    refuse to be drafted.

    Just wondering why.

    1) It's inherently less safe than riding solo.

    2) I am as uncompetitive as they come. I'm not even interested in knowing
    whether I'm a "weaker" or "stronger" rider.

    3) I ride alone. I don't want conversation when I'm riding.

    4) It's inherently less safe than riding solo.

    Quoted message said:

    I understand the idea of wanting to know someones is there from a
    safety perspective. But other than that- at least for me- I couldn't
    care less. I don't mid pulling a weaker rider along and I love being
    pulled by stronger rider. I think both situations are fine. The former
    makes stronger psychologicaly and the latter makes me feel faster :-)

    The interactions between two randomly-met riders will almost certainly
    consist entirely of things that don't interest me.

    RichC

  20. rdclark said:

    I refuse to be drafted.

    Signed,

    Bill Clinton

    (See Maggie? THAT's how you post something political!)

    <eg>

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