Mountain Bikes · Public discussion

I need a few good GPS waypoints

Bruce W.1 · 2003-03-26T03:30:21+00:00

On Usenet people are always asking for good GPS waypoints, either to enter into their GPS unit or to calibrate scanned maps from which tracks, routes, and other waypoints are made with software like OziExplorer and ExpertGPS. Many websites offer GPS waypoints. Some sites have millions of waypoints. Yet very few of these sites have accurate waypoints. The source of the data is always uncertain. Waypoint accuracy is not a great concern when you are driving an automobile. But when you are in the wilderness or backcountry, especially in foul weather, accuracy of a kilometer or mile is not acceptable. Maps are not always drawn accurately, and their level of precision is nowhere near that of the GPS system. In my experience maps can be off by hundreds of meters or more. When compared to current GPS accuracies of ten to twenty feet, maps leave a lot to be desired. And so if we want accurate waypoints we must do one of the following: 1. Skip the maps altogether and find good waypoints for the locations. 2. Get maps and calibrate them with good waypoints. 3. Compute waypoints from the maps and hope for the best. So people on Usenet are forever asking for good GPS waypoints. Now there is a place to get and leave accurate GPS waypoints. This message is to tell you about a website I created to store only good GPS waypoints. You can find it at: http://trailwaypoints.com From now on when I take a backcountry trip I will be marking GPS waypoints and adding them to this site. If you have any good waypoints (accurate to under 30 meters or 100 feet) then it would be great if you added them to Trail Waypoints too. That way they can be used by everyone. And you will know where to find them in the future when you need them. The Trail Waypoints website has interactive mapping that covers -- at this time -- most of the english speaking world. Just click on the map to zoom in. It can show waypoints that are just a few meters apart. The waypoints are divided into the following regions: 4. Australia 5. British Isles 6. Canada 7. New Zealand 8. United States To filter your area of interest, the waypoints (and types of waypoints) are also divided in to the following activity categories: 9. Backpacking 10. Canoeing, kayaking, and rafting 11. Climbing 12. Horseback riding 13. Mountain biking 14. Winter snow (cross-country skiing, snowshoeing, and snowmobiling) 15. 4-Wheel drive and motorcycling Trail Waypoints is brand new so it doesn't have many waypoints yet. Watch for more as time goes on. And thank you for any waypoints you contribute. Bruce

Started by Bruce W.1 · 26 March 2003 · Last activity 27 March 2003 · 21 posts · 1,950 views

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Original section: Mountain Bikes
Published: 26 March 2003
Last activity: 27 March 2003
Original author: Bruce W.1
Posts: 21
Discussion status: Public discussion
Total views: 1,950
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Original post
Bruce W.1
Archived post

26 March 2003, 03:30 UTC #1

On Usenet people are always asking for good GPS waypoints, either to enter into their GPS unit or to
calibrate scanned maps from which tracks, routes, and other waypoints are made with software like
OziExplorer and ExpertGPS.
Many websites offer GPS waypoints. Some sites have millions of waypoints. Yet very few of these
sites have accurate waypoints. The source of the data is always uncertain.
Waypoint accuracy is not a great concern when you are driving an automobile. But when you are in the
wilderness or backcountry, especially in foul weather, accuracy of a kilometer or mile is not
acceptable.
Maps are not always drawn accurately, and their level of precision is nowhere near that of the GPS
system. In my experience maps can be off by hundreds of meters or more. When compared to current GPS
accuracies of ten to twenty feet, maps leave a lot to be desired. And so if we want accurate
waypoints we must do one of the following:
1. Skip the maps altogether and find good waypoints for the locations.
2. Get maps and calibrate them with good waypoints.
3. Compute waypoints from the maps and hope for the best. So people on Usenet are forever asking
for good GPS waypoints. Now there is a place to get and leave accurate GPS waypoints.
This message is to tell you about a website I created to store only good GPS waypoints. You can find
it at: trailwaypoints.comtrailwaypoints.com From now on when I take a backcountry trip I will be marking GPS
waypoints and adding them to this site. If you have any good waypoints (accurate to under 30 meters
or 100 feet) then it would be great if you added them to Trail Waypoints too. That way they can be
used by everyone. And you will know where to find them in the future when you need them.
The Trail Waypoints website has interactive mapping that covers -- at this time -- most of the
english speaking world. Just click on the map to zoom in. It can show waypoints that are just a few
meters apart. The waypoints are divided into the following regions:
4. Australia
5. British Isles
6. Canada
7. New Zealand
8. United States
To filter your area of interest, the waypoints (and types of waypoints) are also divided in to the
following activity categories:
9. Backpacking
10. Canoeing, kayaking, and rafting
11. Climbing
12. Horseback riding
13. Mountain biking
14. Winter snow (cross-country skiing, snowshoeing, and snowmobiling)
15. 4-Wheel drive and motorcycling
Trail Waypoints is brand new so it doesn't have many waypoints yet. Watch for more as time goes on.
And thank you for any waypoints you contribute.
Bruce

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Trentus
Archived post

26 March 2003, 09:30 UTC #2

"Bruce W.1" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Maps are not always drawn accurately, and their level of precision is nowhere near that of the GPS
system. In my experience maps can be off by hundreds of meters or more.
You have very weird experience then. I haven't found a single map that's out, and definitely not out
by that amount. Just people who incorrectly use maps with GPS units. "Hundreds of metres or more"
Get real, where are you getting your maps from - Wheat-bix boxes? Use the wrong datum with a map and
you'll be out by up to 200 metres or more. Sounds like you need some lessons in either GPS units or
maps, or both.
Trentus

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Jd
Archived post

26 March 2003, 15:30 UTC #3

"Bruce W.1" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>... <snip "build my website for me" plea loaded
with misinformation>
You've got to be kidding. There are many gullible and naive people on the 'net and armed with a gps,
but I doubt they'll do your work for you and your misinformative ideas.
JD

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Penny S.
Archived post

26 March 2003, 17:00 UTC #4

Bruce W.1 said:
Trail Waypoints is brand new so it doesn't have many waypoints yet. Watch for more as time goes
on. And thank you for any waypoints you contribute.
Bruce
I went and looked just to see what this is about and as the new owner of a GPS and some software.
While I understand what you are trying to do, I've got some issues with making some of this info
available to the masses. For example... the only MTB set you have so far is a Petroglyph field
somewhere out of Boise. Based on the vandalism that regularly occurs at sites like these already...
( spray paint, removal/theft, guns etc) who in their right mind would put information like this up
on the web? Maybe it's the same argument against publication of the cool spots in magazine and
guide books.
just my 2¢
penny s

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Bruce W.1
Archived post

26 March 2003, 17:30 UTC #5

Penny S. said:
I went and looked just to see what this is about and as the new owner of a GPS and some software.
While I understand what you are trying to do, I've got some issues with making some of this info
available to the masses. For example... the only MTB set you have so far is a Petroglyph field
somewhere out of Boise. Based on the vandalism that regularly occurs at sites like these
already... ( spray paint, removal/theft, guns etc) who in their right mind would put information
like this up on the web? Maybe it's the same argument against publication of the cool spots in
magazine and guide books.
just my 2¢
penny s

=========================================================
Your concern is noteworthy Penny. Though I'm not sure what can be done about this. Users are free to
enter whatever waypoints they wish.
Your magazine and guide book analogy is perfect.
If you can suggest a way to handle this problem then I'm all ears.

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Bruce W.1
Archived post

26 March 2003, 18:00 UTC #6

Trentus said:

"Bruce W.1" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Maps are not always drawn accurately, and their level of precision is nowhere near that of the
GPS system. In my experience maps can be off by hundreds of meters or more.
You have very weird experience then. I haven't found a single map that's out, and definitely not
out by that amount. Just people who incorrectly use maps with GPS units. "Hundreds of metres or
more" Get real, where are you getting your maps from - Wheat-bix boxes? Use the wrong datum with a
map and you'll be out by up to 200 metres or more. Sounds like you need some lessons in either GPS
units or maps, or both.
Trentus
===================================================
I could give you many examples of things not being where they are shown on the map.
The USGS quad maps are very good. The maps produced by the local park services (even in the USA) are
sometimes pretty bad. I've found things being off by a half mile. It all depends on the map.
GPS introduces a whole new level of precision. And the park services are scrambling to update their
maps. But at this time many currently issued maps were created twenty years ago. Some of them might
better be called an artist's rendering.
Trail Waypoints seeks to overcome these innacuracies.

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Penny S.
Archived post

26 March 2003, 19:00 UTC #7

Bruce W.1 said:
Trentus wrote:

are
Quoted message said:
shown on the map.
The USGS quad maps are very good.
and someof them are outdated by 20-30 years when it comes to roads, trails and structures.
The maps produced by the local park
Quoted message said:
services (even in the USA) are sometimes pretty bad. I've found things being off by a half mile.
It all depends on the map.
I thought "Trails Illustrated" had most USNP's covered. Since when is the NPS doing maps? They can
barely keep on on geenral maintenance in the parks.
penny
Quoted message said:

GPS introduces a whole new level of precision. And the park services are scrambling to update
their maps. But at this time many currently issued maps were created twenty years ago. Some of
them might better be called an artist's rendering.
Trail Waypoints seeks to overcome these innacuracies.

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Reco Diver
Archived post

26 March 2003, 23:00 UTC #8

"Penny S." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
<snip>
Quoted message said:
I thought "Trails Illustrated" had most USNP's covered. Since when is the NPS doing maps? They can
barely keep on on geenral maintenance in the parks.
Map production, which is different from the handout "picture that looks like a map," is carried
out by the GIS coordinator for the unit. Most map production by the NPS is not published for
direct public consumption. That said, you can get some pre-clipped DEM's and ARC coverages from
the NPS. Of course the files are pretty much set up for ESRI consuption (E00's). Actually, The NPS
has been using GIS and GPS technology for SARR work for ~20 years, including P-code and DGPS
during the SA years.
As for maintenance in the NPS R and T as well as B and U, are generally under funded through
out the NPS.
Reco

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Reco Diver
Archived post

26 March 2003, 23:30 UTC #9

[email hidden] (JD) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:
"Bruce W.1" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>... <snip "build my website for me" plea loaded
with misinformation>
You've got to be kidding. There are many gullible and naive people on the 'net and armed with a
gps, but I doubt they'll do your work for you and your misinformative ideas.
JD
What can it hurt to give out a few waypoints?
Look here are a few start points ... Sort of theme riding.
A real hot spot, but the local protect the trails with a vengence: UTM 11 587837E 4105351N
A ripp'n downhill but the locals get a bit tense here as well (sort of "drive to the top" types):
UTM 11 436346E 3998605N
Some interesting riding, but the trails only open once a year: UTM 13 363292E 3727147N
gullible?
You know the word gullible isn't even in the dictionary.
Enjoy
Reco

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Mike Romain
Archived post

27 March 2003, 02:00 UTC #10

Penny S. said:

Bruce W.1 said:
Trail Waypoints is brand new so it doesn't have many waypoints yet. Watch for more as time goes
on. And thank you for any waypoints you contribute.
Bruce
I went and looked just to see what this is about and as the new owner of a GPS and some software.
While I understand what you are trying to do, I've got some issues with making some of this info
available to the masses. For example... the only MTB set you have so far is a Petroglyph field
somewhere out of Boise. Based on the vandalism that regularly occurs at sites like these
already... ( spray paint, removal/theft, guns etc) who in their right mind would put information
like this up on the web? Maybe it's the same argument against publication of the cool spots in
magazine and guide books.
just my 2¢
penny s
I have to agree 100%!!!
In one Canadian deep bush area I take my Jeep, a Jeep website put up a link to GPS points.
The locals with the hunt camps are incensed about it. To the point of being dangerous to any Jeepers
they see in the area.
BIG TIME!
We were on a 10 day camping trip last summer, and had pickups full of drunks from the cabins
harassing us at all hours of the night to the point of us thinking we needed police protection. Bear
season was starting in a couple days, so these are all armed camps.
We had families with small children with us.
I don't think posting backcountry GPS data is a good idea at all!
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

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Jd
Archived post

27 March 2003, 02:00 UTC #11

[email hidden] (Reco Diver) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:
[email hidden] (JD) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:
"Bruce W.1" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>... <snip "build my website for me" plea loaded
with misinformation>
You've got to be kidding. There are many gullible and naive people on the 'net and armed with a
gps, but I doubt they'll do your work for you and your misinformative ideas.
JD
What can it hurt to give out a few waypoints?
Nothing, if they are the right ones
Quoted message said:
Look here are a few start points ... Sort of theme riding.
A real hot spot, but the local protect the trails with a vengence: UTM 11 587837E 4105351N
hehe
Quoted message said:
A ripp'n downhill but the locals get a bit tense here as well (sort of "drive to the top" types):
UTM 11 436346E 3998605N
haha
Quoted message said:
Some interesting riding, but the trails only open once a year: UTM 13 363292E 3727147N
excellent
Quoted message said:
gullible?
yeah
Quoted message said:
You know the word gullible isn't even in the dictionary.
not yours
Quoted message said:
Enjoy
I did, thanks.
Quoted message said:
Reco
Someone who knows what Universal Transverse Mercator is, how refreshing.
JD

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Clydesdalemtb
Archived post

27 March 2003, 03:00 UTC #12

Reco Diver said:
A real hot spot, but the local protect the trails with a vengence: UTM 11 587837E 4105351N
A ripp'n downhill but the locals get a bit tense here as well (sort of "drive to the top" types):
UTM 11 436346E 3998605N
Quoted message said:
Some interesting riding, but the trails only open once a year: UTM 13 363292E 3727147N
hey those #'s aren't inthe USofA

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Clydesdalemtb
Archived post

27 March 2003, 03:00 UTC #13

JD said:
Someone who knows what Universal Transverse Mercator is, how refreshing.
Sadly you don't even need to know that anymore: jeeep.comcoord converts
to<->from any format

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Reco Diver
Archived post

27 March 2003, 12:00 UTC #14

ClydesdaleMTB <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:
Reco Diver said:
A real hot spot, but the local protect the trails with a vengence: UTM 11 587837E 4105351N
A ripp'n downhill but the locals get a bit tense here as well (sort of "drive to the top"
types): UTM 11 436346E 3998605N
Quoted message said:
Some interesting riding, but the trails only open once a year: UTM 13 363292E 3727147N
hey those #'s aren't inthe USofA
That heep tool fron Christler seems to drop the (-) from -116 in DMS. Take the UTM to someplace like
topozone and plug'em in .... just do the first one ... I think you'll get the picture. BTW at 37 N
and -116 W you're way in the US, but for this start point you need to be down to the meter.
Tell me when heep comes out with a product that converts Township and Range to DMS .... If anyone
can do it heep can.
Reco

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Pete Hickey
Archived post

27 March 2003, 12:30 UTC #15

In article said:
Penny S. said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
I've got some issues with making some of this info available to the masses.
First it was maps, then guidebooks, then net trip-reports, now net-posting of waypoints. Each thing
brought (brings) more people to out of the way places. Secret, hard to reach, places won't exist in
a few years. There is always someone who wants to tell about it, and most people don'T realize how
many people are on the net.
Quoted message said:
I don't think posting backcountry GPS data is a good idea at all!
Those who are against it may fight back by posting mis-information. Once a certain percentage of the
information is wrong, the value of the whole will drop. People will loose confidence in
it.
--
--
LITTLE KNOWN FACT: Did you know that 90% of North Americans cannot taste the difference between
fried dog and fried cat?

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Jd
Archived post

27 March 2003, 13:30 UTC #16

ClydesdaleMTB <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:
Reco Diver said:
A real hot spot, but the local protect the trails with a vengence: UTM 11 587837E 4105351N
A ripp'n downhill but the locals get a bit tense here as well (sort of "drive to the top"
types): UTM 11 436346E 3998605N
Quoted message said:
Some interesting riding, but the trails only open once a year: UTM 13 363292E 3727147N
hey those #'s aren't inthe USofA
Yeah they are.
JD

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Gary S .
Archived post

27 March 2003, 14:00 UTC #17

(Pete Hickey) said:
In article said:
Penny S. said:

I've got some issues with making some of this info available to the masses.
First it was maps, then guidebooks, then net trip-reports, now net-posting of waypoints. Each thing
brought (brings) more people to out of the way places. Secret, hard to reach, places won't exist in
a few years. There is always someone who wants to tell about it, and most people don'T realize how
many people are on the net.
Quoted message said:
I don't think posting backcountry GPS data is a good idea at all!
Those who are against it may fight back by posting mis-information. Once a certain percentage of
the information is wrong, the value of the whole will drop. People will loose confidence in
it.

So, wilderness areas should have cell phone jammers AND GPS jammers?
I'm sure that the Forest Service can increase the Parking Fee "Demo" Program (did you know that
"demo" means permanent?) and the Outfitter/Guide Fee Program (for commercial and volunteer led trips
only) to the stage where only a few can afford to access wilderness.
I hear Vail is lovely this time of year.
Happy trails, Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence
Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

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John S. Watson
Archived post

27 March 2003, 17:30 UTC #18

[email hidden] (Pete Hickey) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:

Those who are against it may fight back by posting mis-information. Once a certain percentage of
the information is wrong, the value of the whole will drop. People will loose confidence in
it.
How much do GPS jammers cost? :-)
JW

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Mike Romain
Archived post

27 March 2003, 19:00 UTC #19

John S. Watson said:

[email hidden] (Pete Hickey) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:

Those who are against it may fight back by posting mis-information. Once a certain percentage of
the information is wrong, the value of the whole will drop. People will loose confidence in
it.
How much do GPS jammers cost? :-)
JW
Apparently Russia sells them for about $2000.00.
Mike

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Chris Phillipo
Archived post

27 March 2003, 20:00 UTC #20

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...
Quoted message said:
[email hidden] (Pete Hickey) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:

Those who are against it may fight back by posting mis-information. Once a certain percentage of
the information is wrong, the value of the whole will drop. People will loose confidence in
it.
How much do GPS jammers cost? :-)
JW
I went to that point in the Jeep commercial. You know what? No hot babes waiting there for me, talk
about mis-information.
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia ramsays-online.comramsays-online.com

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